DocT01d Mongols Steppe strikes back 2

[romeothemonk]

I misplaced my turn log, so I will give a short synopsis.
1. Byzantines and Turks are getting Dogpiled.
2. We have 1-2 cities between our two empires now.
3. We are right next to Ghuzz, the Turkish capitol. (Do not assualt they probably have 10-15 pikes/swiss in there)
4. We lost an army due to really bad rng.
5. I lost 1 loose keshik up north, still tossing aside VC like nothing.
6. Started a series of Temples so we can have some culture/ border expansion.
7. Nothing flipped on us, and I garnered 4 more turk cities.
Thoughts: When the next tech comes in, we should then sign peace with the poles and get Castle building from them. We can probably also get code of laws in the trading, but I wouldn't give gpt. Currently we are at war with the Turks and Poles.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

I got the save. Will try to play through tonight, but no promises till tomorrow.

Here's the save for anyone interested:
>>>SAVE<<<

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Sorry for the delay guys. I really had to slog through this ten and get back into the game. Some good gains though.

LOG:
Hmmm. I’m pretty sure that this is the right save, but we don’t have any troops, other than a rl VC near Ghuzz.

IT – Poles come asking for peace. I make them sweeten it with Castle Building, 2 gpt, and TM. Wanted an extra 500+ gold for WM.

Chinese Admin comes in, set research to Khanlig in 18 at –3gpt. Apparently it’s a well-known tech, as everyone has it. I do however find a nice trade with the Kievan Rus. They give us CoL, Early siege, 23 gold, quarry and WM for some iron.

1203 ad (1) – Army takes 11hp of damage attacking a single vet merc.

IT – I fall asleep during the long interturn. (4-5 min)

1206 ad (2) – GA ends. Salonika falls after heavy fighting, gives us 186 gold. Serious casualties, but no losses. We discover a source of quarry after I just traded for some. :shrug: (I know that’s not a real smiley)

1209 ad (3) – I take Izmit with an army, and get 96 gold for the trouble.

1212 ad (4) – Nothing, healing troops. Only Konya is preventing the turks from having a split personality.

1215 ad (5) – Both Konya and Uskudar fall this turn.

IT – Turks steal back Istanbul.

1218 ad (6) – Kill 4 mercs and a sipahi at Patzinak, but it still stands.

IT – Lothair demands gold and TM, tell him to piss off and he does.

1221 ad (7) – Istanbul is retaken. Discover that the heavy resistance in Patzinak was to protect a king unit. They failed.

IT – Izmit flips back to Turks, we lose a VC.

1224 ad (8) – Izmit retaken.

1227 ad (9) – We now have a decision. Take the slow road and take the cities with the armies, saving the capitol for last. A quicker route: Take the capitol first and eliminate the Turks. The problem with that is we don’t get the cities. I’m not that sure the cities are rally that valuable to us, they just seem to give us something else to defend.

IT – The English destroy the Celts. Theo demands TM and 71g. I know we should probably say no, but I don’t think we can handle her just yet, and we should finish up with the Turks.

1230 ad (10) – I’ll stop here, leaving most of our Keshiks unmoved. I have consolidated the forces in Izmit. They are (for the most part) healed.

I would continue to focus our offense on the armies, doing a little leader fishing when appropriate. I might also advocate just eliminating the Turks, rather than try to take the cities individually. Be wary of using the Keshiks against those swiss mercs, they’re brutal. Counterattacks are virtually nil.



>>>SAVE<<<

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I'm pretty tempted to grab this now...
Points to discuss:
Why eliminating the Turks? Weaken them, and get as many techs as possible for peace...
What's the status of Byzantium and Abbassids?

Btw, I still think the Mongol variant can reach Domination. It's just too easy to loose most of the Keshiks in the first turns, underestimating the # of Assassins they throw at us. And it plays quite different, so you really have to familiarize - but there is no time to do that. Guess we all would do much better in a second attempt (no, I don't want to start again; I'm currently working on an even more different Venice/ Genoa scenario).

 

[Bede]

Take it away, Doc.

I would love to see the Master at work on this one.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Got it, then.

 

[DeceasedHorse]

I think we may have been just too aggressive early on; what we needed to do is send both halves of our armies against the Turks, assuming that they still hold the Caucusus mountains. We can smash any army in the game, but we have absolutly no production base or culure, which makes sense I suppose. Once we get our empire linked up things will go much better. Dealing with culture flips is also a major problem, and one I don't know the solution to.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Well, the solution is easy, so to speak. Bring out the torches!

But that leads into my next thing: Why are we aiming for domination, and not conquest. As DH said, culture flipping is a major problem, and one that there is no easy solution to. If we were going for conquest, we could just be king hunting out there....but maybe that's part of the challenge?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

DH is 150% correct. Except for I think smashing the Abbassids is top priority, that would give us something like a core.

However, this game was in a pretty bad shape....

Please do not feel offended, I just think in a SG obvious mistakes should be open for criticism!

• Someone abandoned our 2 Huge Distance units ; that forces us to keep a lot of defenders in our royal cities.
• No Diplomacy whatsoever. No Techs, no map hawking. Don't complain about not being able to see Assassins, in our (dead) game DH traded for that Tech in the 1st 10!
• Why are there German cities in Siberia? The whole point is to grabb the remote colonies, then strike the actual Eastern powers. War is the way to get Techs (at least a discount)
• We have been at war with the Abbassids, and they still have their Iron source??? If their is one important goal for a short opening war with them, it's their Iron!
• We are importing Quarry? Even 1gp would have been a waste for that.
• We weren't mobilized, despite building nothing but units (and 2 useless Temples - Postal Station give culture as well, but since we're Xenophobic, captured cities don't produce cpt anyway for some time).
• Our future core cities in the S were nearly undefended, and completely undeveloped. Workers were mining Mountains, instead of bringing Irrigation.

However, it is far from being a lost case

@Sens: We would already win by VPs in some turns, if I hadn't reduced the city capture VPs. A VP victory is simply no challenge at all. And Conquest is simply impossible in this scenario, except if you grossly reduce VP scoring.
More important, VPs just don't fit the theme - the Mongols were a completely different culture, the shouldn't gain VPs by returning a Relic...

Domination: We have lower corruption, are COM and can build a second FP...

 

[romeothemonk]

With the Iron, the Abbassids don't really use it anymore anyway. Once they can build assassains, that is typically all the offense that they build. I missed the quarry import, but we can't build walls without it. with the tech trading I was afraid to pull the trigger, as sometimes when you advance an age you lose all of your invested research in non-essential techs, and I had no desire to lose the 30+ turns into the Tech we were working on. Do whatever you can to make us better Doc, but just be warned the AI values WM's higher than Techs right now, at least to sell to us.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

DocT01d – Mongols 1230AD

Ack – where are our 2 Huge Distance units? Pardon me, but whoever abandoned those, this was about the most stupid move I’ve seen in a SG!

Regroup to attack Edrine. Run some Keshiks back South – the slightest attack from Byzantium or Abbassids would wipe out our entire core...and Cleo has easily enough Inquisitors in our lands to do the job.

Turn down Science to minimum.
Buy Jihad from Fatimids for WM and 150gp. Buy Assassination from Cordova for WM and 450gp. Buy Med Combat from the Rus for WM and 350gp. Buy Map Making and WM from Magyars for Med Combat and WM. Era advance. Hawk WM for about 100gp.
Make peace with England, get Polearms for WM, 60gp and 28gpt. Change all builds to Military. Mobilize. Note Postal Stations are flagged as MIL, thus can be built.

IBT:
Turkish Longbow loses to VC near Salonika.
Ankara (Postal Station) -> Pike

Turn 1: 1233AD
Attack Edrine:
3rd Army kills Elite SwissM, -1HP
3rd Army kills Vet SwissM, -3HP
Vet Keshik dies to Reg SwissM
Elite Keshik kills SwissM, -0HP
Elite Keshik kills Assassin, -2HP, MGL Tolui! Will form a VC Army, we don’t have enough Keshiks for another Keshik Army.
Vet Keshik kills Assassin, Edrine captured (we already razed Turkish cities). Last attack destroyed the Barracks, but comes with Marketplace and 40gp.
Move couple of Keshiks and some Slaves South.
Someone did us the favour and connected our 2 territories, we now have 2 Lux everywhere

IBT:
2 Turkish Assassins attack, loose a prey Cat, and a VC – however, the VC doesn’t matter, since it was in Salinika which deposes anyway
Our 1st Assassin finishes in the South

Turn 2: 1236AD
Luckily, the auto-Defenders are now only Spears…retake Salinika
IBT:
Keshik in the open defeats Assassin.
Rurik demands Horses…I cave.
2 Keshiks spawn.
Rjazan (Poastal Station) -> Assassin, Karakorum (PS) -> Pike

Turn 3: 1239AD
Approach Antalya.
IBT:
Norwegians destroy the Danes. Turks want to talk.
Merv (PS) -> Assassin

Turn 4: 1242AD
Antalya:
3rd Army slays 3 Swissies (lost only a total of 3HP against the first 2).
Keshik slays Longbow unscratched, slays another Longbow, Antalya captured, comes with Barracks.
Time for peace. And a lot of trades.
Get Theology, Invention, Divine Right, Seamanship, WM and 7gp for peace. Get Medicine, Middle Class, WM, 3gp from Fatimids for Theology and Invention. Get Imp Siege and 40gp from Norway for Theology and Middle Class. Get a Cordovan Slave (how historically fitting!) and 13gp from Castile for Polearms. Hawk around our WM for about 30gp.
Abbassids have 3400+gp! Time to capture a couple of their cities

PLEASE DO NOT AUTOMATE WORKERS!
Didn’t catch it before, since I had a couple of Keshiks on goto in that area.

Btw, we’re dead last even in power

Notice a problem: We are Xenophobic…no culture for captured cities. Thus I officially drop the rule of not whipping foreigners, as long as we built something that is justified.

IBT:
RoP with Byzantium would cost 120gp, cannot afford it.
Patzinak flips back (1 VC).

Turn 5: 1245AD
Whip a couple of Postal Stations. Move units S.
IBT:
Cleo has about 75 Inquisitors in our lands, and gets pissed because of 2 Workers we have in her territory…

Turn 6: 1248AD
Zzzz…

IBT:
Bremen builds the Hanseatic League. Nicely replayed history.

Turn 7: 1251AD
There simply isn’t anything to do. Get 2 of our Armies down to the South, need to sign a RoP with Cleo again for 110gp.
IBT:
Fatimids declare on Byzantium

Turn 8: 1254AD
Zzz…again. Except that I position to attack the Abbassids next turn…
IBT:
2 Keshiks arrive.

Turn 9: 1257AD
Abbassids seem completely gassed, they don’t muster anything against the Byzantines except Longbows. And, they use Pikes again, despite having Iron? Nevertheless, they now have 4400gp!
Declare straight war. Capture New Mossul, their Iron town. But much more we needed the 90gp..
IBT:
Abbassids sign the Franks against us.

Turn 10: 1260AD
Capture Hatin, defended by a single Spear and an Assassin, 184gp.

Status:
4/3 Land/Pop after excessive use of the whip (Byzantines 12/16)
14820VPs (Byz 15040)


Notes:

• The Byzantines really hurt the Abbassids, we should easily capture several cities if we follow them.
• I deliberately didn’t mobilize this time, I want the Granary in New Medina, we need a Settler factory.
• Our Northern forces should take those 2 German cities, and get Tech for peace. I just didn’t want to attack until I see whom the Abbassids buy in against us.
• Mobilization works a little tricky, don’t forget to build nothing but troops, and switch to improvements in the last turn.
• Beware of the Sub bug!
• I moved Keshiks out of towns with flip risk wherever possible, that’s why some of them are in the open.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Pictures:

The North:

Mid:

South:

Edit: Umm, shrinked a bit too much - sorry.


And the game...

Over to ?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

@romeo:
I'm not too worried about the Abbassids offensive units, I just don't want them to get even more Swiss Merc.
And I agree on being careful with era advances/ research, however we already researched 2 techs, there would have been 2 safe windows (and the bug didn't strike during turns).

Again, by no means I want to on anyone here, if I wouldn't value your skills pretty high, I wouldn't even post here.

 

[DeceasedHorse]

I'd be willing to take it, if Bede doesn't mind.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Doc - A couple oopsies I was responsible for:

Importing quarry. I traded a tech to the (someone) for their gold, WM, and quarry. We weren't paying anything for it. The trada was mainly to facilitate getting a WM, which everyone else had put a huge value on. One of the problems I have with scenarios is not knowing what resources are valuable to us, and the civilopedia is just too damn much to remember. As such, I imported it only to get more value from our tech, as we didn't have a supply yet. Alas, a source of quarry was discovered in the south on the very next turn.

IIRC, I made peace with the Abbasids, to try and limit our exposure early, when we were too divided to be effective. I probably should have looked for the iron, but be aware - at the time we could see about 5% of the entire map (maybe).

I think we're all guilty of not thinking about mobilization.

I wasn't asking about VP's, I was asking why we weren't going for conquest. From what I know about regicide games, if we kill all the kings, it eliminates the civ, right? So why aren't we just out there king-hunting?

I imagine by the sub bug you mean our invisible assassin units will work the same?

 

[romeothemonk]

I like to mobolize, but held off because we needed temples and culture and couldn't build postal stations.
Does this mean that we can all go "Postal"??
Hehe.

 

[Bede]

@DH, take it away.

@Doc and team,

I was way too hamhanded in the way I opened the game so the mess is 100% mine. I did not spend enough time in up-front prep (like reading the Civilipedia and your notes)and just launched like an unguided missile. When that combined with my hinky machine....let me only say the turns I managed to misplay were excruciating.

Anyway, aplologies to all for booting it so badly.

And Doc, I always appreciate your commentary regardless of the tone. It must be painful to watch a hash being made of your carefully crafted scenario.

 

[DeceasedHorse]

Got it. Will play tonight or tommorrow.

 

[DeceasedHorse]

Preturn: Rjazin is building a town hall for some reason, swapped to pikemen. I’m not so sure about opening another front on the north, especially since the cities will most likely be hopelessly corrupt and we could really use the troops down south against the Mamelukes, but we could use the tech and additional income. Declare straight up on Germany. Vet Keshik kills a German Longbow hiding out in the woods near Antalya, and enslaves a vassal cav. Vet Keshik out of Sliven captures a pair of German slaves, and discovers that a regular Swiss Mercenary currently defends Hannover. I don’t want to risk the Keshiks, so I will wait for the army to arrive before pressing the attack here. Buy two workers off of Poland for 250 gold and our map.

IBT: The Byzantine hordes run around in circles. Then, to my utter astonishment, THIS runs out of the fog near Antalya:

A TURKISH KESHIK! WHAT THE HELL! How is this even possible? Keshiks aren’t buildable, and this isn’t Alpha Centauri or something where you could bribe troops or something. As long as he isn’t on an attack run, I suppose it doesn’t matter a huge deal. Very odd.

Turn 1: 3rd army kills two regular Swiss mercs defending Hannover, enslaving twice. Vet Keshik attacks reg Merc, wins and promotes to elite. Vet spear on top. Keshik blitzes, but is forced to retreat. Second vet Keshik redlines but kill the spearmen, and Hannover falls. Down south we are awaiting the arrival of our Assassin before proceeding; I don’t want to walk our army into a death trap.

IBT: The Byzantine Inquisition kills off a bunch of Abbassid Assassins, or at least that’s what it sounds like. Abbassids buy the Swedes into the war against us.

Turn 2: New Medina completes a Granary, but with only +1fpt at the moment it can hardly serve as a settler factory until we get those flood plains under our control. Starts on an Assassin for now. Army loses 12 hp killing 2 Vet Mercs in Baghdad. Better be more careful; we cannot afford to lose that army! Attack Stuttgart with Vet Keshik, who loses 4 hp in a row against a spearmen and dies. 3rd army kills a Swede Settler/MDI pair, netting us two workers and an enslaved VC. Army heads south to deal with Stuttgart’s spearmen of doom and then head for the southern front. Mobilize for war. Scouting reveals that a fortified Elite Mercenary defends Basra; should have saved the army for HIM. Wake up two Elite Keshiks and one Elite* Keshik in Denzili and send them to the front.

IBT: The Byzantine and the Abassids beat the crap out of each other. The Turks go insane and declare on the Byzantine, and we spot that traitorous Turk Keshik run out for an attack on Prilep. Abbassids buy the Fatmids in against us.

Turn 3: First army withdraws to New Medina, as Hattin is not defensible and looks like a big flip risk more than anything else. Elite Keshik loses 4 hp attack Stuttgart and its spearmen of doom.

IBT: Lose a Keshik that was covering the retreat of First army to an Abassid Assassin. The Fatmids buy in Norway against us. The last Polish king is slain by German knights, and Poland is eliminated. The Byzantine armies begin to pull back from Baghdad.

Turn 4: Vet Keshik gets a promotion and slave killing a redlined Abassid assassin. Lose an ELITE KESHIK attacking a stinking spear in Stuttgart. Absolutely ridiculous. Tolui is finally able to finish the job, however. Stuttgart falls. It’s a piece of Crap City and I can’t believe it cost so many troops to take, relatively speaking.

Turn 5: Reinforcements arrive from the Steppes. First army loses 7 hp killing and enslaving the Elite Mercenary defending Basra, but another Elite is revealed. I’ll bet the Byzantine threw a bunch of Inquisitors at the city, decimating their offensive force down south and promoting the defenders. The army will have to heal up again; I can’t risk another attack at this point. Load the new vassal cav into the other army. The vassal cav army attacks and kills the second Elite, losing 3 hp and revealing a regular Swiss merc. Second attack costs another 6 hp, but the Vassal army is victorious, promotes, and Basra falls. Thanks for weakening their defenses, Theo. Switch New Medina to a pike so it can get started on Settler production. The Horde moves in to occupy Basra. Next stop: Baghdad.

IBT: Istanbul flips back to the Turks. The Swedes ally with the Cordovans against us, and three Norwegian Berserks and a spear show up outside Edrine, with most of the Golden Horde already on the way south. The Cordovan buy the Bulgars in against us as well.

Turn 6: Germany is willing to talk, but will only accept peace straight up. (Even one gold isn’t acceptable to them). The Golden Horde reverses direction and head back north, with the exception of First Army, which is now trapped in Turkish territory and will continue south. Assassins and Keshiks surround Baghdad while the armies heal up.

IBT: The Magyars are eliminated by the Kievans. Germany declares on the Byzantine for no apparent reason. Spot a Turkish Vassal Cav.

Turn 7: 1st army attack Baghdad, killing two veteran mercenaries, but losing 11 hp. Regular merc now defending. Elite Keshik goes next, inflicting one damage but then forced to retreat. Vet Keshik inflicts one damage, dies, but he manages to destroy the barracks. Baghdad is down to two mercs. ¾ Vet Keshik kills another, one left. Vet Keshik from Hattin has enough MP to make it there in time to attack. Last Swiss Mercenary defeated; they have a regular sword on top now. Kill two Berserks up north.

IBT: 16 Swedish units come out of the fog, including 6 Berserks. There is absolutely NOTHING up there to stop them, but they still need a couple of turns to reach attack position.

Turn 8: ¾ Vet Keshik kills a sword, an assassin, and a Caliph and razes Baghdad to the ground. 3rd army has also finally arrived from the north. Defeat the last of the Norwegian troops, and send the Keshiks galloping north.

IBT: DAMN! I forgot about the Inquisitor’s ATAR ability. Swedish Inquisitors take Sliven, taking one casualty. This also cuts off a few cities from our road network, causing a few riots. Basra flips to the Abassids, costing us an Assassin and two pikemen. It’s getting razed next.

Turn 9: Buy Wines of the Byzantine for a couple hundred gold. An Elite Keshik blitzes Sliven killing and enslaving two Inquisitors and retaking the city. The new vassal cav kill another two Inquisitors, including the Elite one that took the city last turn. The Swedes are now willing to talk. 340 Gold gets us a peace treaty, and I take the deal. I may have decimated their Inquisitors, but their main SoD is still fully intact. Since our northern forces are now in the area anyway, they can move against Great Bulgar and Plovidiv and maybe force Ateas to the table.

IBT: The Traitor Keshik is spotted again outside Zonguldak, battling Byzantine Inquisitors. Konya flips to the Turks.

Turn 10: Peace with the Swedes means we are now de-mobilized; I will leave it up to the next leader to decide if we should stay that way or not. Plovdiv falls to a Keshik blitz. First and third armies raze Basra to the ground, looting 111 gold. That’ll teach em to revolt.

NOTES: Our troops occupying Plovdiv are exposed to a Bulgar longbow; no way around it then I can see. Settler pops from New Medina next turn, so use him to reclaim some of that fertile land we’ve, ah, terra-formed.

The save

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

A Turkish Keshik??? Are they a Khanate maybe, and built the Golden Horde SM?

Excellent played, DH! Next player should consider finishing off the Turks, if we have enough troops left in the North. Blitz the flipped cities, and kill their last (Edit: King, not turn) before they can flip again.