Does anyone actually build Beasts of Agares?

[Monkeyfinger]

They're allowed by the same tech as Eidolons. They're barely stronger than Eidolons. They have retardedly high hammer costs, and kill 4 population on top of that. There are almost never any paladins for them to face. They have a religion requirement.

Are these things ever worth it?

 

[Demus]

you can only have 4 eidolons at once, so once you've got 4 decently promoted eidolons, the beast can be an added bonus

 

[Arcite36575]

You also forgot that the city goes into revolt for several turns as well. And not only are enemy paladins pretty rare, but a 25% bonus is not eye popping.

In all the games I've played, I've only built them once. Just once. Totally useless.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, I for one never build them. I built them a couple times before the Metamagic sphere was implemented when I wanted mana nodes to revert, but that is it.

Given the price of population and city revolt, I may try modding them so that they cost only 1 hammer. That could make them more attractive to build. Or, I might make them become a (permanent) summon for Profanes, still costing population (could be nice in newly captured cities which you don't expect to hold onto)

 

[Sto]

I use to upgrade eidolon from ritualist . The city revolt is easy to manage with a discple to sacrify for culture ... and the population cost isn't so much if you run sacrifice the weak ... and as i like to play good vs evil games , i meet a lots of paladins .

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

I have built them before but my luck with them just doesnt seem to be worth it. I build send them to war and they promptly die :/

I know it is just my luck but like lucky moldy gym socks I seem to have better luck with *out* them in my game.

 

[attackdrone]

Whenever I play Ashen Veil, I have a surplus of unhappy citizens in every city. So eating four of them does not bother me in the least. The cost is high though - making them the last National Unit I build.

 

[Randolph]

If your in a situation where you've built all your other national units then it's worth it, otherwise I wouldn't build them. I works pretty well to build them as the infernals in a secondary city. Who care about the pop cost there, and you need all the national units you can get for world conquest.

 

[Zechnophobe]

They are costly, but when you need to expand your high level military, they are a nice addition.

 

[Kael]

What would be a reasonable perk for them?

 

[WCH]

Maybe just make them stronger? Would +1 to both attack and defence be enough to make them worthwhile?

 

[Nimbus]

Either increase their movement to 2 or just give them a lesser form of the scourge promotion would be fine, say 25% instead of 40%. Otherwise maybe lower the 500 hammers as an 11str with +5 unholy unit still has some good uses.

 

[Arcite36575]

Another negative point: Paladins/Druids/Eidorns/etc. have units which they are upgraded from. So for example, if I'm playing as Alexis, and I get Malevolent Designs, I will usually want to upgrade one of my well-experienced vampires to an Eidorn, instead of building a green national unit. That means that my national units are already pretty powerful from creation. However, the Beasts of Agares can't be upgraded from an earlier unit, meaning that they are always far weaker than any of my other national units on creation.

 

[loocas]

What if they weren't buildable, but appeared in advanced AV cities, along with the revolt and pop change or whatever.

 

[Tarquelne]

I build them if I'm in a major military build-up and I want to maximize high-level units. And with humans they seem to have some value as a deterrent. It's sort of like the old "Your first day in prison hit someone with a chair so they think you're dangerously crazy." thing.

What would be a reasonable perk for them?

How about a "Feed"-like ability that triggers randomly? Probably with some extra strength to make it a "perk" overall. Or "Feeding Frenzy" - Feed is player-controlled and it gives + to move and Blitz for a turn.

Though just a significantly cheaper cost to build would be nice. The pop-loss and revolt makes them special and acts as another sort of cost.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

No, strength isn't really the problem, it is costs (not that boosting their strength too is a bad thing). Making them build almost instantly (with the normal population and anarchy cost) could be nice. It might be appropriate for them to just be a powerful permanent summon.

Extra movement could be good though. Hmm...if you made these summons then the mobility promotions from extension promotions would suffice. Of course, (when not using my modmod) Veil (High) Priests wouldn't be able to get extension. I was actually thinking that it could be nice to give archmages extra spells from the spheres associated with their religion.


Hmm...I was just thinking that it could be cool if they had the opposite mechanism as Repentant angels; they could gain strength with every win, and maybe lose it from remaining peaceful.

Oh, I also think replacing some of the holy strength with entropy affinity could be nice. I'm always a fan of affinity. (Hmm..does negative affinity still work? I was thinking that negative spirit/law/life affinity could balance out significant entropy/chaos affinity)


I was also thinking it could be cool if they didn't always take out 4 pop, but a random number. The unit's strength could scale based on the population it killed when summoned and maybe also the length of the revolt.

 

[WCH]

What if they weren't buildable, but appeared in advanced AV cities, along with the revolt and pop change or whatever.

Oh man... I like! Very good idea. Hopefully Kael agrees. Would add some serious flavour to AV.

 

[xienwolf]

While I like Magister's Idea of making them gain strength in battle, but gradually lose it over time without battle (or just in general gradual loss, with frequent battle nicely counter-balancing it), and the idea of reducing the build cost to make it a 1 turn investment tops, I would like something flavorful.


These are Beasts of Agares. He is known to not create anything of his own, but rather to subvert everything else to a twisted version which will then serve him. Possible ways to expand upon this idea:

1. New Promotion: Demonized, Demented, Twisted, Fell or some other appropriate name
   • Units defeated by the Beast of Agares have a chance to be captured, with the new promotion applied to them. This causes a graphical change (darker color scheme + Fire Aura like Meshabber?), and moves 50% of the Defensive to Offiensive . Thus a 6 unit becomes 9/3 when Demonized. Could also be appropriate to have it act like Crazed and apply Enraged periodically.
2. Borrow from the Mimic's Book
   • You do no Build a Beast of Agares. You instead build a Sphere of Corruption. This is an invisible unit, or an Equipable item, and must be used to defeat other units with a chance to convert them to your cause and transform it into a Beast of Agares (with all the promotions the defeated unit had).
3. Ultra-Drown
   • Rather than corrupt your enemies, you can allow the player to give up his own units for corruption. Tier 3 Melee Branch units can cast a spell which will convert them into a Beast of Agares in a city with a Temple of the Veil (still costs you 4 population and some turns of revolt)

There are probably other ways to manifest the aspect of Agares twisting creation to his perverted ideal, but that should be enough to start creative juices if people are interested.

 

[redazncommieDXP]

I'm very curious- does Kael actually read through these threads, or would it be worth our while to draft a plan paper and send it to him for his consideration?

 

[Roghar]

he posted in this one..