Mesix
Obergruppenführer
As alyays...I like pie!
Does Auric need a change?
- Thread starter Lade
- Start date
WarKirby
Arty person
Why does everyone keep mentioning balance, though?
Auric is the end of the game. He doesn't need balance. He should be stupidly overpowered and capable of wrecking everything.
The game is pretty much already lost if you allow the illians to get that farm anyways. Aside from them having to discover omniscience, there's the completion of The Draw which forces them to declare war on you. and that's when you should be stopping them.
Auric is the end of the game. He doesn't need balance. He should be stupidly overpowered and capable of wrecking everything.
The game is pretty much already lost if you allow the illians to get that farm anyways. Aside from them having to discover omniscience, there's the completion of The Draw which forces them to declare war on you. and that's when you should be stopping them.
Tacgnol
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 216
I don't think he should be invincible even without the Godslayer, I like the idea of a group of heroes working together to bring him down (RPGs FTW!), but he should really be unkillable by normal units, and it should take at least 2 or 3 heroes to wear him down. What I'd like to see is a 2 first strikes, maybe 3, to make most of his combats flawless victories, and a 20% heal after combat to make up for the occasional lucky C5 immortal or whatever that lands a couple hits on him. Blitz would be nice but frankly attacking, what, 4 times? every turn would just be begging your enemy to bury him under an army without any first strike capability or combat heal.
Alternatively, I would like to see one of the Illian rituals, possibly the Deepening but that might come to early, or else the Draw, grant an additional Ice mana. He has 30 Ice affinity so with 2 Ice mana it wouldn't matter if he's fighting a 20 strength C5 hero with magic resist (remember Avatar halves magic resistance), he is NOT going down.
Oh, and while other tweaks such as cannibalism or ice mana are more important, I think it's absolutely critical that he gets March. Really, Avatar should grant March and Cannibalism, in fact I think I'm going to change that right now.
Alternatively, I would like to see one of the Illian rituals, possibly the Deepening but that might come to early, or else the Draw, grant an additional Ice mana. He has 30 Ice affinity so with 2 Ice mana it wouldn't matter if he's fighting a 20 strength C5 hero with magic resist (remember Avatar halves magic resistance), he is NOT going down.
Oh, and while other tweaks such as cannibalism or ice mana are more important, I think it's absolutely critical that he gets March. Really, Avatar should grant March and Cannibalism, in fact I think I'm going to change that right now.
Well i see your point Tacgnol, but there's only one little problem with the 2-3 heroes taking him out. In larger maps, assuming half the AI's didn't kill themselves, you could have anywhere from 5-12 heroes coming at you for DECLARING WAR AGAINST THE WORLD. Building auric then would be nothing but a death sentence.
I like the idea of making him immortal and his presence within the world spreading ice and tundra/bad weather.
Killing him with the godslayer should kill him, as should two deaths in a turn...but otherwise, he should stick around. I like the idea that players will be forced to seek him out in order to stop the global cooling and that he can be temporarily but not permanently stopped by mobs of units.
Killing him with the godslayer should kill him, as should two deaths in a turn...but otherwise, he should stick around. I like the idea that players will be forced to seek him out in order to stop the global cooling and that he can be temporarily but not permanently stopped by mobs of units.
WarKirby
Arty person
How many RPGs have situations where the final boss is only killable wit some unique magical artifact, though.
Auric is the final boss of FFH. He should be treated as such.
Auric is the final boss of FFH. He should be treated as such.
Tacgnol
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 216
Well, if he had March and Cannibalize, he would be able to survive 20 heroes as long as he has a turn to rest (or some trash to kill) between attacks, and the AI is almost definitely not going to be coordinating to use multiple heroes in one turn. I don't play MP so I guess that could be an issue there, but it would still have to be coordinated to only hit him with your heroes to bring him down, and I doubt anyone would be volunteering to sacrifice their heroes, anyway in MP people WILL actually use the Godslayer.
PotatoOverdose
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2007
- Messages
- 352
FFH2 isn't an RPG, it is a turn based strategy game. Being set in a magical universe doesn't change that. Not all things magical are RPG, and not all RPG's are magical. Balance is important in a strategy game, especially if you consider that the illians are not the only lategame civ. I'm not saying I wouldn't like him to have immortal/spread winter globally, that would be very interesting and entertaining. However, that would also create an imbalance. The illians could turtle for 500 turns and then win, even though before that they may have been the weakest civ. By comparison, an amurite player in the same game would also be playing a late game civ. Despite that, a victory for them may be difficult due to early civs being far more well established. Autowin at Auric is not balanced and ultimately not entertaining, no matter how cool you make it sound/look.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I'm pretty sure there is one key problem with giving Auric Ulvin Immortality; I'm pretty sure that <PythonPostCombatLost> is only called when the unit is killed the second time in one turn/after losing the immortality promotion. Thus, it would be very difficult to make his death permanent when The Godslayer is being used.
Of course, I guess his <PythonPostCombatLost> call could override the normal combat results, bringing Auric Ascended back and killing the opponent anyway. In that case his actual strength would be purely for show.
I much prefer giving him blitz and making him heal completely after every battle (not having cannibalize which only heals 10% and only after killing living units, but having his damage set to 0 in the same python call that kills him if his opponent has the godslayer) that he survives.
I'm thinking it may be good for him to passively change the terrain around him (perhaps even using a spell with its effects in a <PyRequirement>, which would be called much more than once per turn so would be called at least every time he moves), including turning water tiles into Snow so a land unit with the Godslayer (which should let units move impassible) could track him down anywhere he goes.
I also think that more Frost Giants should enter the game at some point, as Auric says that Wilboman will not be the only one for long. Perhaps they could be an Ice summon, something Auric Ascended can summon, or the products of a new Illian Ritual. They woudl basically all be Wilboman - the Hero promotion.
Of course, I guess his <PythonPostCombatLost> call could override the normal combat results, bringing Auric Ascended back and killing the opponent anyway. In that case his actual strength would be purely for show.
I much prefer giving him blitz and making him heal completely after every battle (not having cannibalize which only heals 10% and only after killing living units, but having his damage set to 0 in the same python call that kills him if his opponent has the godslayer) that he survives.
I'm thinking it may be good for him to passively change the terrain around him (perhaps even using a spell with its effects in a <PyRequirement>, which would be called much more than once per turn so would be called at least every time he moves), including turning water tiles into Snow so a land unit with the Godslayer (which should let units move impassible) could track him down anywhere he goes.
I also think that more Frost Giants should enter the game at some point, as Auric says that Wilboman will not be the only one for long. Perhaps they could be an Ice summon, something Auric Ascended can summon, or the products of a new Illian Ritual. They woudl basically all be Wilboman - the Hero promotion.
I used to think that Auric should be able to die to normal units, but after much thinking (and using him a bit), I've decided that he definitely needs a MAJOR buff. Since it actually takes more effort to get to a normal victory condition than getting him, I think needing the Godslayer to kill him is a major must, along with a permanent snowfall with increased range. After all, he is a God, and his entry should mean sure victory except against the world's last ditch attempt with the Godslayer.
Since the Godslayer gets an auto win against him, it should keep the player on his toes and not send out Auric with impunity, so I disagree that it wouldn't be that entertaining. Actually, on second though, to slow the long grind at the end, it would be cool if the Illians gets an auto-win if the unit bearing the Godslayer is killed. Of course if that were to happen the Godslayer should probably give +5 or so combat boost as not to make victory too easy for the Illians.
I do like the idea of buildable Frost Giants at the end though, more shiny stuff is always better! Especially if it speeds the inevitable conquest.
Since the Godslayer gets an auto win against him, it should keep the player on his toes and not send out Auric with impunity, so I disagree that it wouldn't be that entertaining. Actually, on second though, to slow the long grind at the end, it would be cool if the Illians gets an auto-win if the unit bearing the Godslayer is killed. Of course if that were to happen the Godslayer should probably give +5 or so combat boost as not to make victory too easy for the Illians.
I do like the idea of buildable Frost Giants at the end though, more shiny stuff is always better! Especially if it speeds the inevitable conquest.
Lade
Prince
Yea, I like the idea of using frost giants too, and it'd be cool to be able to build more priests of winter
Lade
Prince
Yes, they do. Makes most of your cities very unhappy
So cut your population in half, and then piss of everyone that's left...lets buff Aruic Ascended shall we?
An idea, why not let one of the priests of winter, if they are still around, revive him? That way he really wouldn't be immortal, but he would keep coming back. Just give him march and a few first strikes, and i would say he'd almost be worth the pain to get em.
An idea, why not let one of the priests of winter, if they are still around, revive him? That way he really wouldn't be immortal, but he would keep coming back. Just give him march and a few first strikes, and i would say he'd almost be worth the pain to get em.
I'm one of the people voting he needs a major change/unique victory condition (victory would be the best, imo). Unless there's a workaround to it I haven't thought of, there's already one more very big disadvantage I've seen with the Illians - they can't ever win an altar victory. This stems from the fact that they can't research or adopt a religion, and must remain evil the entire game (already big disadvantages themselves). So I don't think a new victory is too bad (if it's code-able) - if Auric survives x turns (by speed probably) he "turns the world to ice" and the Illians win. Sure, you can complete the Draw and then build him once you're already on your way to a clear dom vic anyway - but Auric is very underwhelming. Again, the fact that you declare war on the whole world (and halve your population...your production really takes a hit) and then still have to build Auric gives everybody else time to stop you. A C5 phalanx shouldn't kill him - 30 C5 phalanxes still shouldn't be close to guaranteed (although I do think he should not be entirely immune to regular units, but it would take multiple civs' armies' worth) I'm just echoing the sentiment that everybody else had the chance to stop the Illians before he ascended to godhood (and the godslayer is good enough as a last ditch effort).
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I just thought I'd mention that I went ahead and tested having the python effects of Snowfall_greater being handled in <PyRequirement> instead of <PyResult>, and found it works well. Basically, this acts like a the PythonOnMove tag I was begging Kael for a year or so ago. It would not be a good thing to do very often for the sake of the processor, but having a single unit have a spell that works passively like this does not seem to really effect performance. Also, the fact that Auric always has a blizzard like effect around him makes an effect caused by his presence alone seem really appropriate.
I'm not sure why, but setting his damage to 0 after every battle doesn't seem to work.
In the past I had failed when I tried to make the Ascension Ritual require you have Auric in the city and making it convert him to Auric Ascended, but I just tried a simpler approach that upgrades the mortal Auric wherever he is and it works just fine (although it was odd to have the god be a follower of the Council of Esus).
Everything seems to be working fine except for the total healing after combat, but when I moved Auric Ascended into an unrevealed water tile (after I made his passive snowfall turn water to Snow too) he mysteriously disappeared. I used worldbuilder to put him back, and he hasn't had trouble walking on frozen water since then.
I'm not sure why, but setting his damage to 0 after every battle doesn't seem to work.
In the past I had failed when I tried to make the Ascension Ritual require you have Auric in the city and making it convert him to Auric Ascended, but I just tried a simpler approach that upgrades the mortal Auric wherever he is and it works just fine (although it was odd to have the god be a follower of the Council of Esus).
Everything seems to be working fine except for the total healing after combat, but when I moved Auric Ascended into an unrevealed water tile (after I made his passive snowfall turn water to Snow too) he mysteriously disappeared. I used worldbuilder to put him back, and he hasn't had trouble walking on frozen water since then.
mo123567
Worst modder ever!
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2005
- Messages
- 279
I agree with WarKirby's posts on this topic.
I envision a really fun game with the Illians being like this:
If you are playing on an appropriate level you shouldn't be in first place for most of the game as the Illians are a little handicapped compared to other civs. Then you complete the Draw and everyone is coming to kill you as you are working on Ascension. Just as you are about to be wiped out AA is created and all of a sudden everything changes. The world is pretty much helpless with the one last hope being the godslayer.
Right now AA is not powerful enough to save you from the brink of destruction and make it worth it to put yourself there.
I envision a really fun game with the Illians being like this:
If you are playing on an appropriate level you shouldn't be in first place for most of the game as the Illians are a little handicapped compared to other civs. Then you complete the Draw and everyone is coming to kill you as you are working on Ascension. Just as you are about to be wiped out AA is created and all of a sudden everything changes. The world is pretty much helpless with the one last hope being the godslayer.
Right now AA is not powerful enough to save you from the brink of destruction and make it worth it to put yourself there.
Lade
Prince
Hmm, the poll seems to indicate theres a couple people who'd like a change
