Does Byzantium need a boost?

[KrikkitTwo]

I think Piety as a tree needs to be buffed so as to improve getting a religion through it.

ie add +2 faith from capital to the opener AND/OR increase cost of shrines to 75 like libraries (making a cost reduction better)

That would buff Byzantium ( more certain religion)

 

[Vitruvius]

I dont think byzantium is that weak. The key to byzantium is the dromon. It allows you to defend without going to the bottom tech tree for CBs. With the dromon you can create safe costal settlements and also protect your see trade routes while at the same time focus on top tech tree.

 

[Merciorum]

Why not just let them always found a religion? They don't get a 1-up on the Celts, as they will probably be left with bad beliefs, but at least their UA won't be obselete.

Letting their UU abilities promote would also be good.

 

[Navelgazer]

I was thinking about this earlier today, as I kind of love Byzantium even though they are clearly underpowered.

The truth is that, IMHO, the best thing about this civ is the Dromon. Ranged naval combat from the ancient era is fantastic (and beautifully rendered, to boot.) It makes it worthwhile to spend that first point in Honor so that you can explore the world and make up your culture points and then some.

The UA was fun, but below-par and gimmicky even in G+K. With Reformation it has been significantly nerfed. Cataphract has never even really been on my radar with them. (Though that has more to do with my penchant for naval maps, which decrease the value of mounted units even further.)

One of the problems with the UA is that pantheons are more valuable than religious beliefs are, in many ways. The best way I've found to utilize religions is to get the best-suited pantheon (desert folklore, god of the sea, what have you) and then build my religion around supporting the pantheon. Byzantium's UA forces you (more or less) into choosing a faith-producing pantheon so that you can ensure that you get one more of the less-useful beliefs later. It's an uneven trade. You're trading an early "good" for a later "meh." (Or possibly a later "good," because they can pick from among pantheon beliefs as well, but by that point those will have been well-picked-over.)

What I want to see from them runs the risk of making them Overpowered, but that's become less of an issue as the expansions have given more highly specialized super-bonuses to different civs. I think they need to either get their bonus belief at the pantheon stage. Even if it's just a choice among the available pantheons that will be a great improvement.

Another possibility is to give one of their UUs a faith-per-kill bonus, but that steps on the pictish warriors and the Celts are already underpowered themselves. I think a UA aspect which gives faith bonuses to fulfilling CS missions would be the most keyed-in to Byzantium's history and be powerful while still requiring some effort. If this were the case, then I'd support keeping the rest of the UA as is or perhaps granting a second extra belief, now that their more common and all.

 

[Vitruvius]

I think people are focusing on the risk of not getting a religion too much. There are only 3 civs who can guarantee an early pantheon but they are not always going to be there. Most of the time you will be competing against civs who will struggle to start a religion just as much as you, provided they even want to start one. I see no harm getting a late pick on beliefs if you can pick more beliefs. Giving Byzantium an early pick will make them OP. They already have an OP dromon who can farm barbs like no other and protect cities like CBs except they can't be hit by melee. I see no point giving them both a faith bonus AND an extra belief. Its either one or the other.

 

[Navelgazer]

The other big issue for me with Byzantium, and there's nothing really to do about this, is that the empire was, like, the quintessential Medieval civ, and yet their UUs are ancient and their UA peaks in the Classical era. Seems off to me.

 

[Peng Qi]

Byzantium doesn't need a boost; Piety needs a boost.

 

[fuzzatron717]

I got a small idea and expanded it from EEE boy's post on the first page.
What if we have it so Byzantium can grab religious ruins from turn 0 and have a higher chance of getting the first faith ruin then the chance goes back to normal after they get their first one.

 

[Peng Qi]

I'd prefer if we don't add more "random" abilities to the game.

What if Byzantium got +1 from Shrines and +2 from Temples? This would let them, you know, start with Piety.

 

[Quitzz]

There are only 3 civs who can guarantee an early pantheon but they are not always going to be there.

I love how people ignore the fact that all of those (excpet may be Celts) civ already has a UA and still can get a guarantee religion, while Byzantium rely on religion completely but cant even get it first. It's just absurdly.

 

[Crafty Bison]

Byzantium doesn't need a boost, piety doesn't have to have a boost, we just need an AI rebalance to not start with piety the whole time; It'd make getting a religion easier if you're prepared to sacrifice for it, which is exactly as it should be. If Byzantium were to be changed, I'd only move their UU's to the medieval (where they historically could be anyway) as galleas and knight replacements, meaning you don't have to focus on army and religion at the same point in the game.

 

[Peng Qi]

Piety definitely needs a boost. It's easily the worst tree right now.

 

[Crafty Bison]

Piety definitely needs a boost. It's easily the worst tree right now.

Agreed, I was merely pointing out that such a rebalance is not Byzantium specific, and they can be indirectly improved by other means.

 

[Vitruvius]

I love how people ignore the fact that all of those (excpet may be Celts) civ already has a UA and still can get a guarantee religion, while Byzantium rely on religion completely but cant even get it first. It's just absurdly.

To say that byzantium rely on religion completely is like saying mongols relies on killing cs or germans killing barbs. Its just a UA and many civs have UAs that are weak outright. Byzantium relies on religion but once they get it its strong because of extra beliefs. The best thing is byzantium doesnt need piety at all to get reformation belief. Byzantium can happily ignore piety and focus on other branches.

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[Redaxe]

Interesting responses. It seems like most people favor buffs to Piety. I guess that makes logical sense. Right now getting your pantheon can be more luck based then anything as you can pop a faith ruin, or discover 2 religious citystates. Perhaps if faith ruins and CS faith-on-discovery was toned down, that would be an indirect buff to Piety.
I like someone else's suggestion to increase the cost of the shrine so the opening Piety policy is better.
And I agree piety really does need some early means of culture generation. You shouldn't have to spend your pantheon to boost culture at the expense of your prefered choice.
I really would like to see the devs add +1culture/shrine to the opening policy.
And perhaps it would be cool to have Piety open up a specialist slot in the temple so you can have a priest class in your cities that can boost faith and culture.
Well let's hope the Devs are still reading the forums and are willing to balance things a bit more.

 

[Babri]

Replace cataphract by a temple UB which provides instant faith boost & is cheaper to build. Cataphract is kind of useless UU & doesn't serve much purpose for Byzantine strategy plus we already have too many horse based UUs & few temple UBs.

To say that byzantium rely on religion completely is like saying mongols relies on killing cs or germans killing barbs. Its just a UA and many civs have UAs that are weak outright. Byzantium relies on religion but once they get it its strong because of extra beliefs. The best thing is byzantium doesnt need piety at all to get reformation belief. Byzantium can happily ignore piety and focus on other branches.

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The problem with your analogy is that Mongols have the most powerful UU combo that is why we neglect its UU when considering the whole civ. On the other hand Byzantines have a medicore UU i.e cataphract & a strong ship UU but that ship isn't going to be as game changer as Keshliks or let's say any other uber powerful UU such as siege towers. So Byzantine's majority of the power relies in good religion establishment (UA) & some power in securing early sea trade routes through Dromon.

 

[Redaxe]

I don't mind the unique units just that they are in the wrong place, ancient/classical instead of medieval. The trouble is as some have mentioned its very hard to get a lot of use out of early ships and horses because they're expensive to build and you have to focus on trying to invest in faith.

 

[Wodan]

Buffs to piety will make the Byzantium situation worse.

 

[kaspergm]

I do think game needs a small tweak that somehow affects Byzantium, directly or indirectly. The fact that I often see AI Byzantium starting with Piety and STILL not getting to found a religion suggests that something is off. Buffing Piety may or may not be the way to go, like someone mentioned above, there seems to be an overrepresentation of AIs picking Piety, so without any special UB for Byzantium, Piety alone doesn't seem to be enough to secure a religion. I myself wouldn't mind having them start with Piety opener for free, that would give them a small but not insignificant head-start. Another possibility would be to give them a faith bonus from the Palace because there was a strong link between the Emperor and the religion from what I know. Moving the Dromon to replace Galleas also seems like a logical choice, given the timing of the empire.

 

[MantaRevan]

I'd prefer if we don't add more "random" abilities to the game.

What if Byzantium got +1 from Shrines and +2 from Temples? This would let them, you know, start with Piety.

Byzantium doesn't need a boost; Piety needs a boost.

This seems like the most balanced option to improving the situation of the abysmal piety tree, although I think it needs something more, say science from cities following the religion or something of the sort that helps piety civs economically, where they desperately need help.