Does Byzantium need a boost?

[black213]

Free Great Prophet after discovering Theology. Increase AI Theodora's flavor for religion from 7 to 9.

Byzantium should not gain a faith bonus: that is the role of the Celts, Ethiopia and Mayans, who get extra faith, but no more powerful religion than normal. My proposition helps Byzantium found a religion, both for the player and AI.

 

[greygamer]

Man, good old Byzantium. I always get thoughts back on AoEII whenever they're mentioned.

Sadly, the main issue with Piety is that you get no Culture from it whatsoever. THe finisher doesn't count, since all the other policy trees give a culture boost on the opener. Maybe the Piety opener could give +1 culture for each shrine and temple or something? OTherwise you risk crippling yourself rushing the reformation belief.

I expect the way around this is to combine it with an opener from Tradition/Liberty/Honor of course this means the cost to complete the tree is higher. If you are going the Stonehenge route there is also the temptation to take an addition policy from Tradition/Liberty as well. I find that you don't really need Piety at the beginning, by the time I get the Piety opener I usually already have a shrine in my capital and am some way off getting a settler so the other trees seem more useful.

I find I'm not sure what is the best approach to maximise getting a religion, especially on larger maps / higher levels. It seems quite luck dependant, faith ruins and religious CS have a big effect and can benefit the AI more often than me. I have had a standard size map game where all the religions were taken by turn 50-70. All of this makes Byzantine feel too luck dependant

 

[beetle]

Is there any evidence that these kind of threads ever lead to games changes or patches? Are we not just navel gazing? (Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I would like to know.)

FWIW, I find the arguments against adjusting piety just for Byzantium’s sake to be compelling. I also find the recommendations for giving them a faith generation capability weak since, as others have pointed it, it would be too much like other civ UA. Additionally, I assert that a faith generation UA overcompensates for the problem and could easily be OP if it did not end once they established a religion.

I agree that Theodora not founding a religion is a significant problem, and, I would point out that this is actually a bigger obstacle for the AI than a human player! No other UA is as routinely neutered. The UA is relatively powerful, so the loss is severe.

The suggestion that Byzantium always get to found a religion (even when nominally 0 left) is the most obvious. I can’t think of how that might break anything, and it seems straightforward to implement.

The idea that Byzantium could further enhance an established religion I find even more interesting. This models real life denominations, and is probably more powerful than starting a new religion, so I like it a lot! It might be harder for the devs to implement and seems like it might lead to some difficulties. For example, does Theodora get the benefit of founder beliefs in this case? If so, does a benefit like Tithe get split 50/50 between Byzantium and the original founder, or is there more money for everyone?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Is there any evidence that these kind of threads ever lead to games changes or patches? Are we not just navel gazing? (Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I would like to know.)

FWIW, I find the arguments against adjusting piety just for Byzantium’s sake to be compelling. I also find the recommendations for giving them a faith generation capability weak since, as others have pointed it, it would be too much like other civ UA. Additionally, I assert that a faith generation UA overcompensates for the problem and could easily be OP if it did not end once they established a religion.

I agree that Theodora not founding a religion is a significant problem, and, I would point out that this is actually a bigger obstacle for the AI than a human player! No other UA is as routinely neutered. The UA is relatively powerful, so the loss is severe.

The suggestion that Byzantium always get to found a religion (even when nominally 0 left) is the most obvious. I can’t think of how that might break anything, and it seems straightforward to implement.

The idea that Byzantium could further enhance an established religion I find even more interesting. This models real life denominations, and is probably more powerful than starting a new religion, so I like it a lot! It might be harder for the devs to implement and seems like it might lead to some difficulties. For example, does Theodora get the benefit of founder beliefs in this case? If so, does a benefit like Tithe get split 50/50 between Byzantium and the original founder, or is there more money for everyone?

Piety doesn't need to be adjusted Just for Byzantium's sake, it needs to be adjusted for its own sake.

one of the first things would be to make it so you don't have to go wide fast to get a religion/benefit from piety
(ie Palace gives +2 faith with opener/opener gives an instant +50 faith game speed adjusted[free pantheon or movement to Great Prophet]/etc)
(Honor as well)

 

[beetle]

Piety doesn't need to be adjusted Just for Byzantium's sake, it needs to be adjusted for its own sake.

I don’t disagree, but such a discussion belongs in a different thread!

Besides which, as been well argued in this thread, any civ-neutral buff to Piety only makes the situation worse for Byzantium!

 

[fuzzatron717]

I still think Byzantium would benefit from religion best if it were able to find faith ruins from turn 0 and has a higher chance of their first ruin being a faith.

 

[beetle]

I still think Byzantium would benefit from religion best if it were able to find faith ruins from turn 0 and has a higher chance of their first ruin being a faith.

Q: Why not just start Byzantium with 20 faith then?
A: Because that is an obvious ugly hack, and merely improves the probability of them getting to use their UA anyway.

I think the better approaches would (1) guarantee that Byzantium gets to use their UA, while (2) not getting an additional buff beyond that. Sorry, but your suggestion fails both of these criteria.

Getting a religion early provides opportunity for selection of better belief benefits, but this is true for all players, and not particular to Theodora.

 

[fuzzatron717]

Its not guaranteed that they get a faith ruin though. Nor is it a guarantee that they get a religion it just increases the chance.

 

[Quitzz]

Free Great Prophet after discovering Theology.

It's too late. Much more elegant solution: Receive a Great Prophet when they advance to the next era.

 

[beetle]

Its not guaranteed that they get a faith ruin though. Nor is it a guarantee that they get a religion it just increases the chance.

Right! That’s a very significant defect with your suggested fix.

The correction to boost Byzantium needs to be closer to a guarantee that they can make some use out of their UA. Also, the boost needs to help the AI player at least as much as a human player, and I don’t think your suggestion does that. Giving Theodora an early choice of pantheon belief, which might well be the only net effect of your suggestion, is orthogonal to the problem pointed out by the OP — while making the early faith generating UA of other civs relatively less valuable.

 

[Vitruvius]

From what i have read i came to two conclusion.
1. byzantium need to be guaranteed a religion.
2. Byzantium should not be given any advantages on getting religion first because that will make them op.

Why not just make byzantium bypass the max religion limit. So they get a religion regardless even if they are last.

 

[fuzzatron717]

From what i have read i came to two conclusion.
1. byzantium need to be guaranteed a religion.
2. Byzantium should not be given any advantages on getting religion first because that will make them op.

Why not just make byzantium bypass the max religion limit. So they get a religion regardless even if they are last.

That requires more beliefs.

 

[kaspergm]

Actually I don't think it does, unless perhaps if you play on Huge map?

 

[fuzzatron717]

Actually I don't think it does, unless perhaps if you play on Huge map?

got me there I do but it still needs more beliefs for that anyways if you do play on huge maps.

 

[aljung]

From what i have read i came to two conclusion.
1. byzantium need to be guaranteed a religion.
2. Byzantium should not be given any advantages on getting religion first because that will make them op.

Why not just make byzantium bypass the max religion limit. So they get a religion regardless even if they are last.

This would be the best. Founding the last religon usually punishes you enough anyway because the best beliefs are taken.

 

[HeresiarchQin]

Just test ran religion Byzantine on a Large, Epic, Fracture map, Immortal game with Maya, Celt, Ethiopia included in the AIs. Take note I'm a pretty casual (i.e. weak) player (I play mostly only on King...).

I beelined to Stonehenge. I didn't start building it before turn 40 and by that time the AIs were popping Pantheons, although no one took the ones like Desert Folklore. Anyway I was lucky enough to successfully built SH by turn 65 something and then start to accumulate Faith for my religion. Of course by turn 70s to 80s the AIs have already found two religions and took away Mosque, Pagoda, and a few other beliefs that I've forgot. I got my own religion by turn 100, and I got: Tithe, Religion Text, and Monastery. Enhanced later with Choral Music and Itinerant Preachers. Recruited 4 Cataphracts and some archers for home defense. Then actually successfully spammed 3 more cities despite I'm running Tradition + Piety. But in this game the AIs were tech-ing like crazy, got to Medieval by 300 BC and Renaissance by 300 AD, with Pikemen appearing everywhere around 5 AD. My culture was running out of steam and I couldn't finish even half of either Tradition nor Piety tree. Isabella laid siege on me by turn 226 with Pikemen, Trebuchets and Conquistadors against my 4 Cataphracts and 4 composite bowmen and I was utterly destroyed. Oh well, didn't know AIs were SO ruthless in Immortal.

Back to original topic, the lessons:

Rushing for religion as Byzantine is fun and even with Maya + Celt + Ethiopian as AIs around there's still a good chance to get third, but still decent religion to use in Immortal. But is it worth it? Perhaps not. I spent 75 turns (Epic speed) just to get Stonehenge up and running yet still got only a third in the religion founding race (although if playing with random AI opponents it won't be necessary like this). The net gain from the UA is Religion Text's 25% extra pressure. But I could get that if I enhanced my religion through normal method as well, and RT's power isn't really powerful in the beginning.

So I spent 70 turns just to establish the Faith generation machine for my religion. Then I used its UU for defense. And guess what, Cataphracts were good, but not impressive; as by the time they came out in a religion game and in a high difficulty, AIs were, as mentioned before, already fielding mass Pikemen. I didn't have time to use Dromons at all.

So in the end, not willing to play with no UA at all, I rushed for religion so the UA granted my religion an extra belief which was either not very useful because it's too early (enhancements) or too weak because they're left-overs (Choral Music and stuff). Then I fielded a land UU which are not useful because they got obsoleted by frickin Spearmen (not to mention Pikemen which appear so fast in higher difficulties). I also have a sea UU which are of course limited in its usage.

I guess playing with other Civs and in a normal way, building armies and teching at a normal phase while using spare resources to establish a serviceable religion as support, is more hassle free and more efficient.

 

[Grendeldef]

I think they're fine as is. There's nothing wrong with a civ that doesn't have every aspect scale equally effectively across all difficulty levels.

That'd would be an extremely hard target to achieve but if an UA is rendered obsolete on higher levels it's broken enough to be immediately fixed. If something is obsolete on lower levels it's more acceptable as AI is no way a threat to human player anyway. This, however is only anecdotal and therefore somewhat irrelevant - the core problem is that even AI can't utilize Byzantine UA and this really needs to be fixed.

I've beaten deity, and have just moved from regularly playing emperor to regularly playing immortal, and I think they're fine as is. So far I've always been able to found a religion with them without going piety, though I didn't get first crack at the picks, but that isn't their bonus, it's the bonus for Ethiopia and the Celts.

Nice & gratz but that's not really the issue nor does it make the situation 'fine' in anyway.

So it must be people who play exclusively deity that find them unattractive, and to those people, take a step down to immortal for byzantine. If they're too proud... sorry, unsatisfied with that option, either play a different civ or discover how well their UUs can be exploited. Many other civs have UUs and even UAs (Ethiopia comes to mind) that aren't super attractive, but still are good picks because players figure out how to capitalize on their other advantages.

Again, all this is besides the point - how a game concept does or does work can't be evaluated solely by how oneself uses it as apart from MP games there tends to be a AI controlled civs around.
A broken UA is hardly due to someone being too proud nor should the solution to these sort problems be a difficulty swap and furthermore it isn't immediately apparent how this would solve the problem while AI is playing Byzantine.

Perhaps this issue would be approached a bit differently if the topic were 'Does Byzantium need a change' and for that one would assume it'd be easier to answer yes - their UA absolutely requires a change but whether Btzantium as a whole needs a boost is a slightly trickier matter.

 

[beetle]

Just test ran religion Byzantine on a Large, Epic, Fracture map, Immortal game with Maya, Celt, Ethiopia included in the AIs. Take note I'm a pretty casual (i.e. weak) player (I play mostly only on King...). I beelined to Stonehenge.

I am a pretty casual player too, but I understand from these forums that, up to Immortal, as a human player, prioritizing SH is a pretty sure strategy for founding a religion. For Byzantine or any other civ.

But your experiment does not disprove the serious difficulty that the AI has with playing Theodora, nor that the UA is useless at Deity, nor with multi-player.

 

[Karmah]

I do find the idea of letting byzantium found an extra religion if needed very elegant.
Even if all the 'good' beliefs are taken, you can always find a pretty decent combination in the leftovers especially with two spreading beliefs , or the extra food+culture on shrine/temples since early culture is pretty nerfed...well there is always something to be done. So youc an still get lucky and get a good religion early or get a toughout zombie religion from the leftovers...

I do reject any suggestion that the situation is fine, my brain just dismiss them
Having a civ with NOTHING starting medieval is just plain stupid.... well maybe medieval is a bit of a stretch since you still have dromons but ....still , with no religion at let s say renaissance you are left with nothing , no UU no UB no UA ....just the mysterious blank civ. That is a flaw in design.

 

[JohnMK]

How about +2 faith to Byzantium PER religion that has so far been founded, evaporating to +0 once the maximum number of religions has been founded. This helps to reinforce the idea that Byzantium was late to the game in real life, and isn't too unbalanced. They receive no benefit to founding an early religion, so the best pantheons and beliefs could well be gone, if the player or AI takes a lazy approach to faith generation.

It's subtle, and suggestive. No more. There should be no guarantee that Byzantium, or anybody for the matter, is able to found a religion.