Does Byzantium need a boost?

[kaspergm]

Protestantism came after both. Also, it very much defends on when you say "Orthodoxy" begins. Also, why couldn't Catholicism be considered the one splitting off?

Well to be technical Sikhism is the last on our little list but none the less. And the schism between Orthodoxy and Catholicism started 325 with the first council that was the first rip and it started expanding gradually until 1054 but from 325 the early orthodoxy's practiced separately from the main church until 1054 when where officially recognized as a completely broken off from Catholicism.

Still, it seems to me that what you are circling around here, really, is the fact that the way they implemented Reformations isn't actually a reformation of the religion, because the whole idea of a Reformation is that you take an existing religion, keep some of it, and then change it into a new religion, where what we get in game is actually just "hey, add this extra belief to your already existing religion".

Of course this is a whole different topic, there's no denying that the ability to actually reform an existing religion and make it your own if you didn't get to found the original religion would have been a nice twist to the game - in fact they could have done it so that reformation allowed you to either reform an existing religion, thus gaining founder right over the new religion, if you didn't get to found a religion, and otherwise it would allow you to promote a religion that you *did* found to world religion, adding an additional belief (á la our current Reformation beliefs) - this way, you would still get the sweater deal if you were the original founder, but going into Piety would still give you a bonus even if you *didn't* get to found in the first place. Byzantium UA could easily play up to this game mechanism, because their UA could allow them to pick a "world religion" belief even if they *didn't* get to found in the first place, courtesy of their bonus belief.

 

[reddishrecue]

Think about it. The Orthodox church really was the last religion. It came after Islam took over 3 out of the five leading Christian cities (Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioc) leaving just Rome and Constantinople.

In addition to the latest religions founded, mormonism in the United States was started in the late 1800s and mormon settlers even established Bringham Young University in Shoshone/American Lands as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The white settlers made temples and universities while the Americans were trying to expand to the west.

 

[Thunda]

No, on diety which I dont care too much about you also cannot get The Great Library. I would categorize Byzantium along those line on Diety.

On immortal and below, I would say your chance is 90% to get a religion.

I agree. Deity is suppose to be very hard. If other players actions can screw you over then good! I'd love it if I was playing Venice on Deity and the AI would try to embargo me or pillage all my trade routes in order to take me out because I was an easy target. I like that there isn't a cookie cutter path to gauranteeing an easy victory if I follow steps 1, 2, and 3. So the fact if I play Byzantium and I could loose my ability making victory more challenging is just fine in my opinion. The threat of loosing makes things more exciting.

I'm currently trying a Byzanntium game on King and I have Pagodas, Mosques, AND Monastaries lol. I had no trouble founding my religion. Build a shrine. Just because that doesn't work on Deity doesn't mean Byzantium is brooken.

 

[kaspergm]

There is still a crucial difference with the Great Library example that the GL is a wonder which means one civ gets it - at the cost of investing a lot of resources in it - and all the other civs don't get it. With the UA it's different, because every civ get their UA for free, but with Byzantium, you may well run the risk of not only *not* getting anything from your UA, but also having invested resources/policies in the attempt at getting a religion but still being beat to it, which means you get punished doubly.

 

[Wodan]

If they dont find religion, most beliefs are totally useless. Beliefs are tied to religion so I dont really understand how this idea could work.

Keep in mind there are 60+ beliefs, so it's hard to make a general statement about "most beliefs".

By far, the majority of the 60+ beliefs would work just fine even if you didn't have a religion. Shrines provide +1, you can still get faith from tiles or winning battles, you can found monasteries/cathedrals/pagodas, etc.

A few beliefs would work fine if you adopted someone else's religion. Missionary Zeal: missionary strength +25%, etc.

In fact, it's only a few beliefs that work only if you found a religion (e.g., Tithe: +1 per 4 followers); those wouldn't be something you'd want to choose in these scenarios. But, keep in mind, Byzantium can usually found a religion... it's only the minority of games that you get frozen out that are of concern.

 

[Wodan]

I mostly concur with your perspective, but JohnMK (et al.) have convinced me that a mechanic that almost always gets Byzantium a religion is arguably better than one which ensures it!

I went back through John's posts, and don't see where he argued that. What he said was that it would probably be a bad idea to add yet another Civ which can pretty much ensure itself of founding a religion in every game, because this would be negative to traditionally non-religious civs (such as Germany) and effectively prohibit them from choosing a religious strat and "working hard" and getting rewarded by founding a religion. I agree with this... it's akin to my own concern about Byzantium working hard and getting denied... same thing, really (though it's much worse in Byzantium's case because you don't just lose all the hard work, you also effectively have your UA nullified).

So, if we all agree with the above, then we should remove suggestions such as "free great prophet". Instead we should focus on suggestions that allow Byzantium to co-opt someone else's religion or that change Byzantium's UA so that it gets a bonus even if it doesn't found a religion at all.

The mechanic should also not break anything else, and be easy for the devs to patch in.

I agree with that, though it can be difficult to gauge this. In any event, these aspects haven't been much discussed in regard to any of the proposed solutions.

 

[Wodan]

Sorry but I don't fully agree with this. While I do think that the suggestion that Byzantium get to found even if all religions are taken, I think some of above suggestions could work if one also patched on some unrelated part to the UA.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying, you agree that

1. the situation where Byzantium gets totally denied is bad, and that simply reducing the frequency of such occurrences is not good enough (which is my stance)
2. changing so that Byzantium can always found would fix it (the recent concern by beetle/johnck aside for the moment)
3. it might ALSO be ok if we reduce the frequency (said "not good enough" in #1) AND give Byzantium a bonus 2nd benefit to its UA

If that's what you're saying, then I'm not too keen on it, myself. For one thing, it's effectively a three-part UA, because we have the current benefit (you get a bonus belief), the 2nd benefit (to decrease frequency of getting denied a religion), and the third benefit (which is the "unrelated UA benefit" you suggest). I don't think there are currently any three-part UAs but it's a bit much. And, a consolation prize does not really absolve the negativism you'll feel when you get denied a religion after having spent a couple of hours of your time going for it. So, while it's better, it still doesn't solve the problem completely.

To me, if we're going to be bothered to fix it, let's do a fix that is robust rather than simply makes it just not as bad.

This would for me not be very different from Dido's UA on a map with no oceans or Indonesia's UA on a Pangea map

Actually, yes it is very different. The player chooses the map and chooses her Leader. Even if the player does a random map and/or random leader, Dido or Indonesia could still spread to the edges of the continent. I've had very good games as Dido where all I did was found 4-6 cities around the edge of pangaea, and didn't go inland at all.

Indonesia w/o any islands is more problematic. But many people have observed the lack of islands problem. And regardless, problems with design of one Civ's UA does not justify a design problem with another Civ's UA. They should each be "fixed" in their own regard.

I do think it's ok for a UA to require an effort towards a specific game goal to shine, particularly if you get some help towards that goal (similar to how Assyrias UA requires you to capture a city from someone who knows a tech you don't know to give you the benefit).

Sure. And the more you strive the better the benefit. But how would you feel if in some games Assyria was prohibited from capturing cities?

 

[Grendeldef]

But how would you feel if in some games Assyria was prohibited from capturing cities?

Or the UA stopped working when 5 cities in the world have been captured regardless of who did it and so on...

Excellent post, Wodan.

 

[budweiser]

Keep in mind there are 60+ beliefs, so it's hard to make a general statement about "most beliefs".

By far, the majority of the 60+ beliefs would work just fine even if you didn't have a religion. Shrines provide +1, you can still get faith from tiles or winning battles, you can found monasteries/cathedrals/pagodas, etc.

A few beliefs would work fine if you adopted someone else's religion. Missionary Zeal: missionary strength +25%, etc.

In fact, it's only a few beliefs that work only if you found a religion (e.g., Tithe: +1 per 4 followers); those wouldn't be something you'd want to choose in these scenarios. But, keep in mind, Byzantium can usually found a religion... it's only the minority of games that you get frozen out that are of concern.

If we agree that Byzantium can found most of the time, then the gravity of this discussion is greatly reduced. Rome can get Legions most of the time.

UA = UU = UB and you often don't need all three just to win. Panzers etc.

So, yeah co-opting as you put it seems like a good area to focus on.

 

[Grendeldef]

Well, if there are (n/2)+1 religions available in a game with n civs then everyone can found a religion most of the times so it's hardly a valid argument for much of anything.
The Rome part has more validity but then again it applies to all civs with UU that requires a resource. Anyway, UA is still more important than an UU or at least should be.

 

[King_Course]

I think there's already too many faith bonused CIVs. It comes down to those that can get a religion and those who can't. If you boost byzantium that's another sure religion and all other CIVS are pushed of the table.

 

[Wodan]

Excellent post, Wodan.

Thx

If we agree that Byzantium can found most of the time, then the gravity of this discussion is greatly reduced.

I don't agree that Byzantium can found most of the time, certainly not on higher levels. Unless by "most" you mean 51% or more. If "most" is 99% of the time, then maybe you have a point. But I personally believe the actual number (if we did some kind of survey or something) would be much less than 99%.

Rome can get Legions most of the time.

Since you bring it up, I think that's a problem too. Legions shouldn't require iron for much the same game design reasons as this Byzantium topic.

Leaving aside that if you were Rome and didn't have Iron, you could almost always use ballistas to go and conquer a city with Iron.

Byzantium can't (currently) go and conquer a religion and still get its UA.

So, yeah co-opting as you put it seems like a good area to focus on.

If everyone agrees that co-opting a religion is a good path then maybe the discussion should focus on solutions that work along those lines... because then the rest of the discussion would be moot / sophistry.

 

[kaspergm]

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying, you agree that

1. the situation where Byzantium gets totally denied is bad, and that simply reducing the frequency of such occurrences is not good enough (which is my stance)
2. changing so that Byzantium can always found would fix it (the recent concern by beetle/johnck aside for the moment)
3. it might ALSO be ok if we reduce the frequency (said "not good enough" in #1) AND give Byzantium a bonus 2nd benefit to its UA

No, I don't think what I was trying to say really match either of those (or is that what you say in #3? Not sure.). My point was that I see two possible ways to fix the Byzantium issue:

1. We guarantee Byzantium always get a religion (as well as they get the bonus belief they currently have) - I find the idea of letting them surpass the maximum number of religions rather elegant, because it will still make it worthwhile for them to focus on religion in order to secure early pick of beliefs, but it will give them a backstopper if they still fail, but otherwise one could have other ways of achieving this.
2. We add something completely unrelated to their UA. For instance, new UA: Byzantium can choose a bonus belief to their religion and they get 10 free techs every time they capture a barbarian camp (obviously this is just a joke example).

The point with option 2) is we can patch something on to their UA which doesn't have to do with religion at all so that in case they miss founding a religion, they still get something from their UA.

It should be added that one can find an intermediary between these two. For instance, if we make part of their UA that they get +3 faith from the Palace (for instance), this WILL be a secondary effect that they benefit from even if they don't found a religion but it will ALSO help them along a lot to make it MUCH easier for them to actually get to found, thus almost guaranteeing them to get to found.

 

[Browd]

Even +1 faith from palace would assure them of being no worse than second (after the Celts) to get a pantheon (which is sometimes the most frustrating part of getting to a religion on Deity -- build a shrine and still can't get a pantheon until it levels off at the 45 faith threshold, and someone enhances before then, locking you out).

If Byz is assured of an early pantheon, they should be able to pick a faith-giving pantheon and get to a religion even on Deity (and any faith ruin they pop will be a 60-faith ruin, which can be huge). Occasionally the map will conspire against them (no local terrain features to support a faith-giving pantheon), but they should be able to choose a culture-giving pantheon that would help them motor through Piety (I would view that as a backstop -- if they get a faith-giving pantheon, they won't need Piety).

An alternative boost would be to allow Byzantium to pick a Reformation belief as its Bonus belief, so they could get two Reformation beliefs if they pursued Piety, or perhaps allow them to pick a Reformation Belief once they research Theology, regardless of whether they take Piety.

As for adding something to their UA, given Byzantium's history, something that would provide a modest CS boost would be interesting -- perhaps their pledge to protect is an extra 5 influence, making them the only civ that can still abuse Pledge + Consulates for perma-friendships. Or maybe they get an extra delegate to the World Congress when they research Printing Press or some other tech.

 

[reddishrecue]

Concidering most of the things mentioned above, Byzantium seems like a good early water map civilization in competition with carthage, polynesia, and other water map type civilizations. Having an early dromon ranged ship vessel early already makes Byzantium a good early naval power. The UA the civilization has does make it weak when other civilizations somehow manage to gather more faith and take all the religion founding spots early. I think Byzantium will be okay if it founds a religion, but if it doesn't, then it misses out on its UA. This goes to other civilizations too because they end up with religions that don't have the extra pantheon belief.

 

[DarthSheldonPhD]

If we can achieve a consensus, something that none of us finds perfect but isn't too objectionable, then we might be able to get the developers' attention. A unified front can help. Some argue for no change, others for pretty significant changes. And nobody's talking about nerfing Byzantium. The balance is in favor of a mild buff to Byzantium's ability to obtain a religion.

My suggestion earlier (+2 faith/turn PER other religion founded, going to +0 once max # is reached or Byzantium founds a religion), was calibrated to appeal to this middle ground, as it really only kicks in to high gear once the danger of losing out on the religion race draws near, and it leaves the mechanic in place that allows nations like the Maya and Celts to found religions earlier than most. My idea, I'll give it a 7.

Modification of above idea: Only kicks in once Theology has been researched by Byzantium. Boost effect to +5 faith/turn per other religion founded, again going to 0 eventually). Not sure on this, have to think about it, but in general I like ideas that help Byzantium get a religion late-ish. I'll give this one a 6.

Cataphract faith from kills doesn't appeal to me, I'm not quite sure why, so I won't veto the idea. But it does adhere to my goal of getting Byzantium a religion late-ish. 5.

Guaranteed or higher likelihood of faith ruins is alright, but in the hands of the AI or a thoughtless human player might be invested in something other than faith-generation pantheons. I'll give this one a 6.

+4 faith from Holy Sites seems, being polite now, rather unhelpful. Veto. 0.

Allowing Byzantium to exceed the max # of religions with a late religion doesn't feel right to me, I could expound on that but won't in this post. But I won't veto it. 1. Too many religions allowed already. (I mod my game to allow only 5 on huge maps, etc.).

Free Great Prophet, interesting. Not useful if the max # of religions is reached already, however. It would have to come before Theology, too, which doesn't feel historically right for Byzantium. 3.

Free Piety opener? Neutral. 5.

Religion & Pantheon requiring less faith. 3.

+2 faith in capital. Maybe. I'll give it a 5, since it seems like it could make founding an early religion more likely than I prefer. But it's better than the status quo.

+1 (or +2?) faith per shrine/temple. I'll give it a 5.

If I've missed another sensible proposal (even if you disagree with it), please remind me.

While I applaud the effort to try to reach a consensus, it's kind of laughable to open with cry for a unified front and follow it with, "MY idea is worth a 7, a variation on MY idea is worth a 6, and pretty much everything else is 5 or below," especially when the rationale for the ratings are, "not sure why, have to think about it" and "doesn't appeal to me, not sure why."

I'd rate the idea of adding a temporary and degenerating faith boost to the UA more in the realm of a 2 or a 3, and not just because "it doesn't appeal to me, not sure why" but for 2 valid reasons. First, the UA is one of the best in the game; many of the religious beliefs are as powerful or more powerful than some civs' UAs (no? I'd take tithe, religious community, or religious centers over Bushido or Barbary Corsairs any day of the week) and has the flexibility to essentially allow you to choose your own UA. I can't see adding anything to such a powerful UA. And second, I doubt it would accomplish the goal. Most of the time when I'm in a founding race, one religion goes early (Ethiopia/Celts/someone who gets a strong faith pantheon) and the 2nd through 5th are founded several turns later but within a 10-15 turn window of each other. If the bonus is added based on how many are founded, the window is so small that it wouldn't accomplish the goal.

So we shouldn't buff a UA that's already very strong. Therefore, the opportunity to increase the likelihood of founding would have to rest in a UB, UU, or UI. I still think that a faith-from-kill UU is the best option, and a naval unit is too situational leaving the cataphract as the best option. As far as some of the other ideas regarding additional faith from palace or select buildings, it would have to come at the cost of one of the two unique item slots. I'm in favor of Browd's idea of having the palace generate 1 FPT, but again not incorporated into the already-strong UA but rather at the expense of one of the unique slots, which would then justify increasing the yield to 2 and some other bonus (Hippodrome: unique building replacing palace, +2 faith and +1 Happiness. I know the palace is technically a wonder and not a building, but as something that's never built or bought, it could pass)

Another idea: The only way that I'd be OK with adding to such a powerful UA to solve their founding problem would be to add a stipulation that's very rare but then give the civ a terrain bias towards it. Could have Byzantium UA have the extra belief and earn +2 faith in all cities adjacent to a mountain and give them a mountainside start bias.

And i want to reiterate that while I'm not opposed to increasing their ability to found, I am opposed to having them be guaranteed to found a religion. It's such a cop out; there should be a sense of urgency when founding a religion, especially at the higher levels which is what the entire thread is about, and not just be able to say, "well, I'm Byzantine and guaranteed to found a religion, so I'll just put the capital's shrine on the backburner, conquer that religious CS for my third city, build cities towards GBR and neglect Mt. Kailash which would be right next door, and found a religion after I have banks up."

 

[kaspergm]

So we shouldn't buff a UA that's already very strong. Therefore, the opportunity to increase the likelihood of founding would have to rest in a UB, UU, or UI.

I disagree. Imo. the UA is not "very strong" when there is a significant chance that it gives you NOTHING at all.

 

[Redaxe]

Another possible suggestion for the UA would be to give Byzantine shrines and temples a 1 specialist slot each that can be worked by 1 population to provide maybe 1 or 2 faith and 1 culture. This is in addition to on addition to the standard yield from these buildings. This sort of helps to boost the perception of a Byzantine religious class that plays a significant part in Byzantine society.
The balance is that these specialist slots require population to work so in the early game it can be used to boost faith income at the expense of growth/productivity.
That way there is a tradeoff. If your lucky and can get Stonehenge and Mt Sinai then you can ignore the specialist slot. But if your unlucky and can't get access to enough faith normally then you can work your population in shrines/temples but at a cost to early growth.
It's not as good as the free faith that Celts, Mayans, Ethiopians or Egyptians get but if your desperate then it will be useful.

 

[beetle]

...the UA is one of the best in the game...

Apparently not everyone agrees, but I agree completely and your explanation is excellent.

I doubt it would accomplish the goal. Most of the time when I'm in a founding race, one religion goes early (Ethiopia/Celts/someone who gets a strong faith pantheon) and the 2nd through 5th are founded several turns later but within a 10-15 turn window of each other. If the bonus is added based on how many are founded, the window is so small that it wouldn't accomplish the goal.

This is a good observation. I think that if the fix is a temporary faith bonus is based on how many religions are founded, it has to ramp up very fast, like 10 fpt per or more. Is there a value that you think could work?

A key point is that the boost needs to help the AI player at every difficulty level, and the human player at Diety. An AI Byzantium without a founded religion is an unnecessarily weak and less interesting opponent. Your other proposals are interesting, but a little complicated, and I think they mostly only help a human player, and not an AI Theodora.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Apparently not everyone agrees, but I agree completely and your explanation is excellent.



This is a good observation. I think that if the fix is a temporary faith bonus is based on how many religions are founded, it has to ramp up very fast, like 10 fpt per or more. Is there a value that you think could work?

A key point is that the boost needs to help the AI player at every difficulty level, and the human player at Diety. An AI Byzantium without a founded religion is an unnecessarily weak and less interesting opponent. Your other proposals are interesting, but a little complicated, and I think they mostly only help a human player, and not an AI Theodora.

I do think that the most interesting way would be to allow
1. adopting a religion past the limit
2. adopting 'someone else's' religion (ie it gets a second holy city... yours which then has the new belief applied)

[#1 simpler, #2 more complex and interesting]