Does evolution have any practical implications? (This is NOT Creation vs Evolution)

[Perfection]

Science is here to make stuff for us and make life easier, it is not here to help us philosophize.

Science is the systamatic manner in which we gain knowledge. The reasons people conduct science is independant of weather it is science. Practical applications is certainly a motivater in the scientific community but it is not the only one. I find that for many many many scientists the real reason they conduct science is the joy of figuring things out. There are enough people who share in this delight to make it possible for many people to conduct research simply to expand human knowledge. I don't take in account the behavior of Kuiper Belt Objects in my practical life or in my philosophy, but I am still extremely interested in this field. Why, you ask? Simply because I'm curious.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I am not sure one can speak of science having a "purpose". People do scientific research because humans are curious and like finding things out. We don't have to have any great end in mind.

EDIT: I know that some people frown upon cites from talk.origins, but they give references you can check yourself: Practical uses of evolution.

 

[blackheart]

WHat? Math sure has practical implications, without math one cannot conduct any of the other sciences, and it would be pretty hard to make the product calculator without understanding math

Fractal Geometry. Do you really not get that there is a practical and theoretical side to science?

blackheart, Biology has practical implications, I believe making pharmaceuticals builds on (parts of) biology.

I didn't say it didn't. And pharmaceutical companies make antibiotics, vaccines, etc. based on their knowledge of evolution.

Black holes and their disputed existance have no practical implication today, but if we manage to build star ships we might want to know if black holes exist, because you don't want to be sucked into one of those things

So, black holes are disputed but you believe in their importance in science? Why not evolution the, which has substantially more evidence and application than black holes.

 

[Homie]

I can't think of any physical product that you an hold in your hand ATM, but certainly the changing attitudes of the medical community to issues like the proper usage of antibiotics is a "product" of an understanding of evolution

Now we're getting somewhere. Now we actually have an example to work with.
But I ask you Perfection, is the changing attitude towards the use of antibiotics because of the belief/understanding of evolution or because doctors have observed that if you use it too much it may stop working or work less effectively. From what I've heard it was observations that got them thinking, Christian and evolutionist doctors alike. Me and my dad actually talked about this, I asked him why they just didn't use antibiotics more freely if it was so great, and he explained this to me. (He is a doctor)

 

[WillJ]

WHat? Math sure has practical implications, without math one cannot conduct any of the other sciences, and it would be pretty hard to make the product calculator without understanding math

Sure, but I said MODERN (and by that I meant present day) mathematical research.

Yes, arithmetic, algebra, trigonometry, calculus, etc. (which were all well known hundreds of years ago) are extremely useful. But walk into a mathematics department at a university and ask a professor there about the research he's doing. Chances are he's not doing it because some corporation needs help; he's doing it for knowledge's sake (you could call this "philosophical" *gasp* ). Most discoveries in math these days have no known practical application (although people might discover applications in the future). And, like I said, despite this, math is sure as crap NOT faith-based.

 

[blackheart]

Now we're getting somewhere. Now we actually have an example to work with.
But I ask you Perfection, is the changing attitude towards the use of antibiotics because of the belief/understanding of evolution or because doctors have observed that if you use it too much it may stop working or work less effectively. From what I've heard it was observations that got them thinking, Christian and evolutionist doctors alike. Me and my dad actually talked about this, I asked him why they just didn't use antibiotics more freely if it was so great, and he explained this to me. (He is a doctor)

Why do you think antibiotics work less effectively if they're used too much? Because antibiotics work too well, they kill off the bacteria that are susceptible to them, leaving the bacteria that are immune or resistant to reproduce more and thus spread their genes and become the majority population. This is evolution.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

From what I've heard it was observations that got them thinking, Christian and evolutionist doctors alike. Me and my dad actually talked about this, I asked him why they just didn't use antibiotics more freely if it was so great, and he explained this to me. (He is a doctor)

Why do you contrast "Christian" with "evolutionist" doctors? I know lots of people who are both, including myself (well, not the doctor bit). I still haven't seen anyone explain how evolution and Christianity are antithetical.

 

[Homie]

What practical implications do fractals have? They are part of math as much as arithmetic.

We have already mentioned anything involved with genetics. You seem not to consider that to count, so maybe I will ask you what practical implications Creations science has.

It too has no practical implications, in fact I say so in the OP.

What does the OP stand for btw?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It too has no practical implications, in fact I say so in the OP.

What does the OP stand for btw?

Original Post.

Check the link I gave you.

Selective breeding makes no sense without the theory of evolution. Once we figured it out, and became able to manipulate genes, we got much better at it.

And any actual scientists may wish to correct me if I am wrong, but haven't we formed new species this way? That could be very useful.

 

[Souron]

Now we're getting somewhere. Now we actually have an example to work with.
But I ask you Perfection, is the changing attitude towards the use of antibiotics because of the belief/understanding of evolution or because doctors have observed that if you use it too much it may stop working or work less effectively. From what I've heard it was observations that got them thinking, Christian and evolutionist doctors alike. Me and my dad actually talked about this, I asked him why they just didn't use antibiotics more freely if it was so great, and he explained this to me. (He is a doctor)

It is true that doctors have observed a general trend that using antibiotics for too long seams weaken their effect, but that is not sufficient proof that they should limit the use of antibiotics. There is no explanation as to why. Only with an explanation of why the observed phenomenon is true can we truly conclude that the results are valid and not just unrelated statistics. That explanation is provided by evolution.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Exactly, that's my point. Its only use is to be an explanation for the origins of life on earth, a part of the grander picture of the universe, it has no practical implication for conducting science. Science is here to make stuff for us and make life easier, it is not here to help us philosophize.

I live in NM, a state that has two of the premier national research labs in the country: Los Alamos and Sandia. Aside from their nulcear work they do research in many areas. Most of their "other" work is not used for products. It has only been recently that the labs have partnered with outsiders who try to find ways to apply the new technology to real world applications. The primary role of science has always been to explain stuff. Other people usually find useful applications. Once Einstein and others explained how energy could be released from atoms, Oppenheimer (or somebody) said "Hey, couldn't we make a bomb using this?"

 

[Homie]

Why do you think antibiotics work less effectively if they're used too much? Because antibiotics work too well, they kill off the bacteria that are susceptible to them, leaving the bacteria that are immune or resistant to reproduce more and thus spread their genes and become the majority population. This is evolution.

That's all evolution is, in that case I'm an evolutionist too. I thought evolution had to encompass more than natural selection.

I do not know what "fractals" are, I know English as in day-to-day English, but I don't know science english or math english, which was why even basic math last semester at an American college was a headache, because I had to learn a bunch of new math words.

OK, after reading you guys' replies I believe I can come up with a more clear claim, communicating what I mean without infringing on the idea of what science is. Realizing that there is THEORETICAL SCIENCE (Philosophy?) and PRACTICAL SCIENCE (Applicable), I claim that we do not need to believe in evolution (or creationism or buddha) to conduct PRACTICAL SCIENCE.

 

[Souron]

For a better example of why theory is a necessary supplement to experimentation with theory consider the following graph. Clearly experiment shows that raiding ships produces less global warming.

 

[Homie]

It is true that doctors have observed a general trend that using antibiotics for too long seams weaken their effect, but that is not sufficient proof that they should limit the use of antibiotics. There is no explanation as to why. Only with an explanation of why the observed phenomenon is true can we truly conclude that the results are valid and not just unrelated statistics. That explanation is provided by evolution.

Are you saying that the accepted explanation in the medical community for germs growing resistant to drugs is evolution?

 

[Perfection]

WHat? Math sure has practical implications, without math one cannot conduct any of the other sciences, and it would be pretty hard to make the product calculator without understanding math

But all fields of math may not have practical implications, does that render a field not math?

blackheart, Biology has practical implications, I believe making pharmaceuticals builds on (parts of) biology.

Really though, I find that certain aspects of biology are more coherant when viewed in the context of evolution. This coherance is as important in biology but it is more nebulous in terms of results-driven research than more direct practical applications like those seen in epidemiology

 

[Birdjaguar]

I say it is philosophical, one does not need to believe in evolution to produce advances in science, to produce the end results of science;

This is true

which is products.

This is false.

Evolution or creationism has no practical implication, so why is evolution even taught in science class when it is of philosophical importance only?

The Theory of Evolution is a product of science, like the steam engine or periodic table. Because of the TOE we have discovered other things of value and interest. Knowledge is a product of science. The TOE has continued to expand our knowledge. A direct extension of it is the dinosaur-bird connection that was put forth in the 1970s and has been solidly confirmed in the last 20 years. Oh and all those dinosaur toys that little boys buy; they are all products of that new knowledge that is founded on TOE.

 

[Homie]

So Souron, by the graph you show that we need a theory to explain global warming, not just observation. This in turn has practical application so we don't all become pirates, but that we close polluting plants instead. So what would be an example where we need the evolution theory to explain something that will in turn have practical applications.

I'm sorry I am not going in depht into every post here, but its like 10 guys against me, so its kinda hard to keep up, the posts are popping up way faster than I can reply.

Anyway, way past bedtime, its actually morning 5:35 AM. So I should be getting to bed.

 

[Perfection]

Now we're getting somewhere. Now we actually have an example to work with.
But I ask you Perfection, is the changing attitude towards the use of antibiotics because of the belief/understanding of evolution or because doctors have observed that if you use it too much it may stop working or work less effectively.

It's the former. Evolution provides the mechanism needed to understand the behavior of the problem. Saying that antibiotics don't work if used to much doesn't explain how the risks actually work. It doesn't tell us that a new strain of bacteria/viruses come into being, and that the resistant bacteria can spread to others. Evolution provides the context that allows us to predict when resistance occurs and how it behaves when it devleops something very important in medical risk assesment.

 

[Souron]

Are you saying that the accepted explanation in the medical community for germs growing resistant to drugs is evolution?

Yes.

What happens is that when antibiotics are aplied, most germs die. Enough die so that the rest are not a significant problem. That is untill they start to multiply.
When they multiply, the new germs are the reproductions of the antibiotic resistant veriaty, and cannot be combated with that particular antibiotic. This is survival of the fittest at work.

Science also postulates that the procecies that govern which germs survive can also be aplied to larger creatures with longer lifespans. With animials, when the enviroment gets harsher, most animals die out(depending on how much harsher), while others thrive in the additional space avalible.

 

[Perfection]

That's all evolution is, in that case I'm an evolutionist too. I thought evolution had to encompass more than natural selection.

Epidemiological research encompasses much more than that aspect of evolution. If you are well-versed on the Bird Flu crisis, then you should understand the importance of finding the mutational pathways that could alter the virus to change its behavior. The concepts of mutations, especially natural selection-driven successive mutations are vital concepts that have been developed through evolutionary theory.