Does FFH need a Lizardman Civ?

[woodelf]

If someone beats me to this then super, but Hian the Frog and I were planning on making an add-on pack with a new lizzie civ. I don't think it should be a Basium/Hyborem event, but rather a playermade expansion that people can d/l and install if they want.

There is lizzie cityart made for the Dragonia II mod as well as some new lizard units. More are coming...

 

[it-ogo]

Personally I do not like blood and sacrificing theme as a headline of a new civ. We have already bloodthirsters as well as sacrificers. And we have already agnostic Grigory and Illians whith their religious specificity so it is better to make Liz able to adopt any religion: strategy play comes from combinations.

Jungle and marsh is better. As they are reptiles they need very specific conditions. So nice to see them like following (strongly revolutionary ).

- L can not settle or work tiles without access to fresh water as well as tundra, ice and desert tiles.
- L workers can terraform tiles with access to fresh water into marsh (except of hills, Ice, tundra and desert but including flood plains/desert and oasis/desert).
- Marsh grants fresh water to adjacent tiles.
- L have +2 food from jungles and 4 food from marsh.
- L can build farms, cottages, pastures and plantations only on marsh.
- All L units are building with food.
- Starting from Sanitation L workers are able to build jungles.
- L have no unhealthiness from population.
- L can hurry buildings by sacrifice population under any civics with no happiness penalty.
- L workers are unable to build mine or workshop.
- L units has positive affinity to marsh and jungles and negative to Ice, tundra and desert.
- Marsh can be turned by scorch to grasslands.
- L units can not have metal weapon promotions. For all metal weapon units they have replacements with higher base strength as a result of genetic engineering, not metallurgy.
- L have no access to arcane fire magic.
- L workers can not build roads.
- L can use marsh for trade routes.
- L units have huge bonus on marsh movement which grows with techs researched.
- Other civ units can not move across marsh without road before construction.
- After construction they can move not more then 1 tile per turn (without a road).

I assume that marsh is a terrain and jungle is a terrain feature which may be grown on marsh.
etc.

 

[Ringtailed]

@xienwolf:
The costs of the spells I suggested aren't necessarily balanced right now. This is very early in the process of designing the civ; I just kinda pulled the numbers out of the air to give an idea of what I was thinking about. I'd have to sit down and give some thought to the details to come up with more balanced figures.
Also, soul essences wouldn't be units but instead a civilization-wide variable that the game keeps track of. The idea of storing 10 essences per Blood Temple was so that you couldn't sit around and create endless quantities of it in advance; a drawn-out campaign would require fresh sacrifices. But 10 is too low, I'd increase that number.
The ratio of 3 slaves to one SE was due to the ease of acquiring slaves with Undercouncil. Slaves are now more difficult to buy so I'd improve the ratio. And I think I'd try to make the Abductors and Zealots have a 50% and 100% chance respectively of simply adding +1 SE to the counter every time they kill a living unit (no slaves). In fact maybe slaves couldn't be sacrificed at all, just population and "prisoners" (the abductor mechanic). I dunno... it's something to figure out.

Another mechanic I was going for here is having a lot of unique spells that they could cast with their Essence but having varying tech requirements for each spell distributed over the various tech branches to sort of customize your potential spell list to the particular game you're playing. That was sort of inspired by the Sheaim planar gates where the basic gate is built with KoTE but other buildings with different tech requirements are needed to summon the various units.

I don't think what I'm describing is really a breach of compact. Quetzalcoatl isn't a god, just a pretender and therefore he isn't bound by the compact. His major limitation is that, while the true gods derive their power from their Sphere, Quetzalcoatl doesn't have a sphere at all. His power is derived and sustained from the life energy of the sacrifices his followers make to him; with no sacrifices he has very little power. That's why he requires a massive amount of SE to manifest himself in the world.
I like the Mesoamerican feel to the civ and the concept of false-god worship (the other civs all follow a god that actually exists, or in the case of the Grigori no god at all) and also the ability to summon the false god in the style of the Cult of the Dragon. It could be argued though that almost everyone on Erebus worships a false god because only the Luonnotar know of the true God.
Still, if no one else wants to do so, I'm tempted to try and implement this civ myself as a modmod. I think this theme fits the Lizardmen best for varying reasons, but if someone else makes a Lizardman civ first thats fine, I'll invent some other race to add (no clue what... also no clue where I'm getting the unit art!)

Oh, and one question to the above post: Calabim eat their own people, but which current civ fits the sacrificing theme? Sheaim? If so that's only the Eater of Dreams, a unit that rarely appears(for me anyway).

Btw, I did indeed mean "Ball Court" and not Bhaal; this is a reference to where the Aztecs occasionally played some sort of ceremonial ball game where the losing team was sacrificed to the gods...

 

[xienwolf]

Yeah, it was all mostly just gut reactions. Not sure if you can set a variable to be tracked for the civ as a whole too easily, and then tie it in to having the points stored within each city. Maybe you could still use the idea of "super specialist" slots, but have each specialist provide +1 SE Resource to the Blood Temple building? Then you would rack up a large resource supply, which would be tracked civ (well, trade network) wide?

If the Abductor & Zealot can make SE in the field, how would it decide which city it is stored in? Or were you picturing it running much like how Gold runs, where it isn't directly stored in the city, but parsed out as a certain fraction of the total supply exists in each city? (or however they decide what gold you get when you capture a city)

 

[Ekolite]

Ringtailed you'd try modding it? You mean nowish or like in a couple of months or w.e? I still have a load of ideas, and we need to make sure its not just a rip off of the warhammer lizzies. There are loads of great lizard men units in the draconia mod afaik, I could ask the modder to use them?

 

[Ringtailed]

If the Abductor & Zealot can make SE in the field, how would it decide which city it is stored in? Or were you picturing it running much like how Gold runs, where it isn't directly stored in the city, but parsed out as a certain fraction of the total supply exists in each city? (or however they decide what gold you get when you capture a city)

That's pretty much it. Like, if I have 4 blood temples with 10 capacity each then my maximum storage capacity is 40. If I have 20/40 Soul Essence currently and I lose a city, then my essence drops to 15/30.

As far as when I'd do all of this... well I don't know. I'm new to modding; never done it before aside of farting around with different minor XML changes (like taking away weapons promos from certain units, reduced cost of archers, etc). I studied Computer Science in college for a few years so I'm not totally new to the whole "coding" thing (at least in theory... lol), but I'd have to try and figure out Civ4/FFH2's modding system first. Also, part of me wants to wait until FFH2 is complete before I try to add entire civilizations with unique mechanics, but that's gonna take a while yet.

Hmmmmmm....

 

[Hian the Frog]

Hi All,

As Woodelf said in a previous post, we had already discussed about adding a lizardmen civ a looooong time ago. Roughly more than 18 monthes ago...

Many stuff was done, but i have joined TR Team during that time and nothing more was wrote.

As you can read, i'm French. I have to translate all that i wrote in a more or less good and readable english. So, be cool with me please, english isn't my natural language.

Woodelf asked me a few days ago to give to all those who like FfH2 the results of my first and ancient thought. Below a first part of what i have wrote.

ABOUT CITIES AND GROWTH:

Spoiler :

Bonus 1: One of the best, if not one of the most logical. No health penalty in jungle. Their cities should be safe from diseases into jungles. It seems to be a low bonus at first, but in fact, it's a big one when you know how jungles destroy your health in cities.

Bonus 2: If possible, the system used for the elf should be used for the lizardmen too. I mean no possibilities to chop jungles and a bonus to food production in jungles (the goal is too have a jungle title producing at least two food without improvement). The general idea is to preserve jungles, to avoid chopping, as Jungles are their natural home.

Bonus 3: (very optional) Fresh water source (lakes and rivers) could also receive another bonus of +1 health, but to reverse the idea without fresh water a malus of -1 could be given.

ABOUT LIZARDMEN:

Spoiler :

Lizardmen were a semi-nomadic and pastoral race that lived a long time ago along a great river and its delta. Their main activites were husbandry (of reptilian like beasts and animals), leather working and fishing crabs. Pacifist and timid by nature, they usually tried to avoid as most as possible other races. Only a very few merchants known about their lands, their skills and ways of living.

As the war between Gods began, most of the other races still didn't know about them.
Lizardmen met their fate when Mulcarn, the Winter God, won the battle. As the climate changed, their lands were slowly invaded by other races. If most of them avoid to settle down, the coming of Orcs tribes changed their lives. Lizardmen were an easy prey. The fight, if it can be called a fight, was short. Numerous clans were destroyed, their homes burned down, their cattle captured, the survivors enslaved.... After a few monthes of such a war, the remaining clans decided to fled. War was lost, and nothing was possible unless looking for a better place.

The long trip began as the cold became even more harder. It lasted for ten long years, during which the number of Lizardmen fall to ten percent of the original number. Most of the deads were among the females and youngs.
Finally, their trip ended in a small luxuriant valley surrounded by mountains, close to an active volcano and a hot water lake. The perfect place to settle down.

Despite their great losses, the greatest treasure of the Lizardmen survived the Long Trip. Protected by the last Great Ss'aha, a female monk, and a few young novices, the Worm's Egg remained undamaged and pure. At her death, following their arrival, she delivered the secret of the Worm's Egg into the hands of a selected group: her best novice, the most powerful warrior and the Master Stockbreeder. "During the Age of Dragons, Lizardmen were created by and breeded to be the servants of Ma'ss'aha, a great and powerful unwinged female Earth Dragon. Even if their status was close to slaves, they were happy to serve Ma'ss'aha. When she fall, killed by another dragon, created by Camulos the Angel of Peace, most of the them were captured and devoured. Only a few survived and fled, carring with them the only unburned and uncorrupted Egg of Ma'ss'aha. Since that time, the Sister Ss'aha, a female monk order, tried to find a way to hatch the egg and to breed the then newly born Worm to kill Camulos."

Thanks the volcano's heat, Lizardmen communities slowly grew up and adapted themselves to their new lands. Fearing a new war and invasion of Orcs and other aggressive races, they drasticaly changed their ways of living. A new Warrior Caste emerged from these changes, Husbandry was redirected to breed War Beast, from the biggest to the smallest, while the Ss'aha left in the Worm's Nest to protect the Worm's Egg.

Many years had passed since the first settlement, the Lizardmen are now facing a great dilemma: trying to recover their past glory and fulfil their revenge by searching for a solution across the world, or raising their knowledge by intensive research while protecting their homes.

ABOUT THE LIZARDMEN "HERO"

Spoiler :

The Worm (and how to create it)

1) When you begin a game on a random map, a special building is automatically created in the Lizardmen capital city. It must be a world wonder, that give no special bonus unless beeing present in the city. This WW must be called: The Worm's Egg. If the city is conquered, the WW is also automatically destroyed (no one unless the lizzie can use it).
2) When reaching a not yet definited tech (Divine Essence as both Dragons ?), AI or player would be autorized to build a unique building (only available to the Lizzies): Council of Ss'aha. This building must be as costly as necessary to well represent the strenght of the Worm. Note that this building will require a tech (Divine Essence) but also (and that's logical) the WW: The Worm's Egg. When finished, the Worm's Egg becomes obsolete and a new unit is created: The Worm. It would be nice to have the WW totaly removed from the city screen if possible.
3) The 'hero" of the Lizzies is then available.


Below a first idea of what he can be.

Tech: Divine Essence
Pre requisite building: The Worm's Egg
Cost: 320 hammers
Type: Beast
Strenght: 16
Movement: 3
Promo: Dragon, Magic Immune, sentry, sorcery, Earth III.
Other bonus: +1 FS, no defensive bonuses, can move throught impassable terrain. (But doesn't have the no terrain cost bonus: it's a worm ! not a winged dragon)

The Worm is linked to earth mana, as was his mother (see the story), that's why he have the ability to use a spell. In that case, it is "crush" spell.

Feel free to comment.

In a few days, more will come. As some explanations about the special bonuses of the Lizardmen units, or some special buildings...

Hian the Frog.

 

[xienwolf]

@Ringtailed: For how to Mod, specific to Civ after already undertsanding a bit about programming... Haven't read it all myself, but Kael has some great advice. Give it a read through and you should know far more than I can pray to tell you myself

EDIT: A thought: Downsides of Jungle Synergy - Burnt jungles regrow as forests. No spell to generate a new Jungle. You cannot nurture a lush rainforest, you are stuck with what there already is in the game, and that resource will continually dwindle once people learn Sanitation.

 

[Ekolite]

Hmm, Hian our ideas for a lizardman civ are very, very different lol. If someone is willing to mod it maybe we could include a mixture of everyones ideas. Or we could have two lizard civs? I think there are 2 or more in Drconia mod so there would be different units for the civs.

That could work out quite well actually. When the orcs attacked the lizzies, some (yours) escaped trying to get the worm's egg to safety. The others (my lizzies) stayed to try to fight them and hold them off, but after fighting a while they saw they could never win and ran away. The two groups ended up leaving in sepearate directions. My lizzies were bitter and angry, expecting some sort of divine intervention from Kilmorph(?) not knowing about the compact. They became lost and were starving, suddenly when they were about to give up Quetzelocal appears before them. He shows them the art of canibalism and they watch him gain powr from their dead. They took him up as a new god, their savior. They now sacrifice to him becuase they believe he eats them to gain strangth and gives them their power.

Meanwhile, your lizzies got to their volcano and hatched their egg. Et voila, new god.

Your lizzies - neutral alignment
Mine - evil

I'm not sure if they should or shouldn't be able to adopt another religion. Mine would have good synergies with OO/AV, yours with RoK. Besides, worship of Quetzloca and the dragon would become so embedded in the lives of the two civs (respectively) that it would become more like their culture and so they could probably be able to worship a secondary one as well. ALthough maybe that could be just for your ones.

 

[Hian the Frog]

To not lie, your idea isn't bad but there is a BIG problem. As a modder myself (in TR Team) i can tell you that adding a civ is a huge work.
I prefer adding only one.
I will also send more about the Lizzie civ. Then, we will wait for more comments.... it's the best solution IMO.
To finish, i'm only a guest in FfH2 and not a member. I have my own mod to run. In 2006, i have worked a bit with Kael and Woodelf but i have to leave as i was busy with Total Realism.

Beeing patient is very important when modding. One of the key of the success of a mod is .... beeing patient to avoid as most as possible ugly bugs and errors.

Hian the Frog.

 

[Ekolite]

Hian, i really think two seperate civs would be best + it would ake a better modmod too.

 

[it-ogo]

Sacrificers are AV religion, not civ. And some wonders use this topic.

 

[Mortenart]

Quetzalcoatl isn't a god, just a pretender and therefore he isn't bound by the compact

Not sure if using a historical God from the Aztec era is a good idea, this is after all a fantasy mod, and any such direct connection to our own world detracts from the self contained universe of FFH. Would be simple enough to create some other God that was inspired, but not taken directly from history.

 

[woodelf]

Which version of FfH2 are you guys planning on using or are you waiting for 0.31?

 

[Hian the Frog]

Woodelf,

As i have said, before implementing any new stuff, we should really agree on what we want to do with a Lizardmen civ. So, there is no hurry (unless you want to add it quickly).
I prefer beeing sure of the civ we want to add than working for nuts.

Hian the Frog.

 

[Ekolite]

Quetzalcoatl is just the working name for it. We're using it for the time being until we think of a unique one.

 

[Mortenart]

Quetzalcoatl is just the working name for it. We're using it for the time being until we think of a unique one.

Aah, good to know, thanks!

 

[xienwolf]

If it is really setting so many people off I can give you quite a few options for changing it to. You figure it should seem reptilian (no lips, keeping room for constant tongue motion between sylables, little tongue-to-tooth contact time (narrow tongue + sharp teeth = no touchie!))for the language it comes from, and most likely be:

Intimidating, thus lots of hard sounds.

Tkasic, Kaciasiro, Aatikishun...

Or just something that works well in a chant.

Heshalliu, Hech'hovash, Leilaucha...

Hells, if you think you'd use some similar framework for city names I could come up with a couple hundred more than you possibly need.

 

[Ekolite]

Yeah great that kind of thing would be perfect for the city names - I hadn't thought about them. How about something like Tassi'Kulu for the god's name?

Also, i was thinking about the whole sacrificing thing. Maybe it could work similiar to the Altar of lounnator? What I mean is that after a certain amount of sacrifices at some building (temple of blood?) they get the first level ''altar'' in their capital. This would give some general effects acrross the civ. For e.g. increased happines with temple of blood, allowing certain blood spells (the ones you were talking about) etc etc. THe higher the level altar the better the effect. At a certain level (not the last) the God would be summoned in theiur capital.

He would start off being reasonalbly strong for a hero, but he would not have the hero promo and could not gain exp through normal means. The next levels of the ''altar'' would give the god certain promos and extra strength besides some further bonuses for the civ. These last levels would require a lot of sacrifices but would definately be worth it. The god should also have a one-shot immortality like hyborem and maybe convert all live enemies it defeats to sacrifice-able captives? I'm not sure whether to let them sacrifice COE-bought slaves or not. It would give them a powerful synergy but is it overpowered?

What do you think?

 

[xienwolf]

Overall, I love the idea that he had with an "Upkeep Cost," So hesitate to lose that function unless it is absolutely impossible.