Does Stalin really belong in the game?

[ICNP]

Didn't most rulers in the pre-democratic eras get their position by being the son of the right father? Picking on Isabella seems unfair to the point where there's probably a bad inquisition joke to be made.

What you didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition? *Bangs Drums*

I really wouldn't mind Hitler in the game and for a WW2 mod he should just be their because well... it's a mod. The main game however might get censored in Europe for this reason and I wouldn't want that.

I just gotta say that if the leader's interesting or important they should be in. This means that China is allowed Mao Zedong and Korea should get Kim-Jong il (which would be hilarious).

 

[kaze88]

I swear the only ally I'd ever want is Kim-Jong Il. Like I'd just give him all my money just to see what he does with it.

 

[a4phantom]

How do you think Isabella got her position? Take one guess who her father was.

Wodan

I'm not saying Izzy wasn't a nepostism hire, I'm saying they almost all were.

 

[CivLuvah]

Yes & No.

Yes because he helped the allies in WWII to fight He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Mentioned-Outloud

No because he is a cruel & ruthless dictator.

For this debate, I will be neutral.

Maybe we should replace him with Ivan the Terrible.

 

[Beoworg]

I don't know if this has been added, as I have not gone through this thread, but, along with Stalin, I think that Hitler should be added too. Mussolini, Franco, Pol Pot, Suharto, Pinochet, the Saudi Royal family, Kim Sung/Jong Il, Saddam Hussein, an Apartheid South African leader, the Ayatollah, Osama Bin Laden, Fidel Castro, and a few other tyrants I couldn't think of at the moment wouldn't be bad additions either. I don't think it would hurt to add race and genocide should be added to the game as well. Including villains makes games more interesting and to keep tyranny out of a game based on human civilization would be an ommission of truth of a despicablie unjust degree.

 

[ByzantinePerson]

Stalin should be in the game. He killed a bunch of people, but transformed Russia into a superpower. I'm not saying what he did justifies killing people, just that he did good and bad things. Like Gengis Khan, making a world power out of Mongolia, but totaly depopulating central asia (Or was that someone else?). Many leaders in the game have good sides and bad sides, just like Stalin. Take out Stalin, and mise well take out Shaka Zulu, the big Khan already mentioned, Isabella, Mao Zedong, and the others like them. They are in the game for a reason: They made a significant contribution to thier nations and history.

 

[Klunc]

And if Firaxis or anyone else is too concerned about not offending people, just give them the choice to "Block potentially offensive content", either at installation or runtime.

AND adding possibly offensive content arbitrarily woulnd`t hurt the game`s selling at all, I guess. We all know what effect Hot Coffee and other things about GTA: San Andreas had on GTA IV...

 

[elgado]

What you didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition?
I really wouldn't mind Hitler in the game and for a WW2 mod he should just be their because well... it's a mod. The main game however might get censored in Europe for this reason and I wouldn't want that.

It wouldn't even be censored in Germany. Hearts of Iron and Hearts of Iron II both let you play as Germany under Hitler. The game, due to its loyalty to historical detail, even includes members of Hitler's government such as Himmler, Goebbels, and Goering. The version of the game released in Germany was voluntarily censored so as not to affect sales (link)-- versions sold outside Germany are not.

Stalin should be in the game. He killed a bunch of people, but transformed Russia into a superpower. I'm not saying what he did justifies killing people, just that he did good and bad things.

It can, however, also be argued that Russia developed in spite of Stalin. As Early as the mid-19th Century people like Alexis de Tocqueville were saying things like Russia and America being "marked out by the will of heaven to sway the destinies of half the globe."

If anything, Stalin's rule took steam out of what could have otherwise been an even more impressive rise of the Russian bear. Put a Dan Quayle in place of Stalin in 1930-1950's Russia and you'd have people clamoring about how great a leader he was simply because he oversaw a period of rapid industrial growth.


Still, I agree with your main point, Stalin should be in the game. For better or worse, Stalin was an important leader of Russia.

 

[Comrade Alex]

I contset the accusation that Fidel Castro is a brutal dictator.
Maybe a little heavy handed...





And yes! I want to play as Calvin Coolidge! Or John Major! That'd make my day.

 

[Grimz101]

This thread is like one of the pre bts
'Poland should be in the game'
It just wont die

 

[gettingfat]

Leaders should be included based on their historical significance, not ethical concerns. History is not ethical. A great leader for one civ usually means devils to the other ones.

The reason why Hitler is not included not because he's not important, it's because of marketing issue.

 

[Comrade Alex]

Oh my God.

Poland SHOULD be in the game!

 

[a4phantom]

Leaders should be included based on their historical significance, not ethical concerns. History is not ethical. A great leader for one civ usually means devils to the other ones.
The reason why Hitler is not included not because he's not important, it's because of marketing issue.

Leaders are included based on their name recognition, with the Hitler exception you noted.

Oh my God.
Poland SHOULD be in the game!

There was a very committed group arguing for Poland a long time ago. I was skeptical but they made a very convincing case.

 

[Comrade Alex]

I think the pro-Stalin lobby has triumphed in this thread.
I'm just an observer.

Now the thread can die peacefully.

 

[a4phantom]

I think the pro-Stalin lobby has triumphed in this thread.
I'm just an observer.

Now the thread can die peacefully.

The pro-Stalin lobby triumphed when Warlords came out in 2006.

 

[Aeravel]

I belive the decision to not include Hitler in the WWII mods was based upon tact. There are still many people alive who remember not only the Holocaust, but the numerous Nazi purges and invasions.
Stalin isn't villified in this same way, in Russia he is depicted as a great leader who defended the USSR from the encroaching German hordes. The stigmatism of Stalin really only exists in the west.

:/

There's still many people alive who remember living in the soviet countries under Stalin's rule. His death count of killing three times more people than Hitler?

"The stigmatism of Stalin really only exists in the west."

Really? He was Time magazine's man of the year in the west. Try studying the conditions people lived in under his communism or ask the people who were around during his reign how much they liked it. He's a villian to people who were oppressed by him. Stalin's mass Ukranian starvation isn't villified? There's also the Katyn Massacre in which Stalin ordered to kill 15,000 Polish officers. So his opression of Poland, Germany, Ukraine, Armenia, Russia and other countries isn't enough?
You don't realize that Stalin had a few "Jewish Purges" too while telling Americans he did not support antisemitism?

 

[Comrade Alex]

Aeravel

Try studying the conditions people lived in under his communism or ask the people who were around during his reign how much they liked it. He's a villian to people who were oppressed by him. Stalin's mass Ukranian starvation isn't villified?

My paternal grandparents were Belarusian. They were victims of the mass deportations to Siberia during the Second World War, and strangely, they hated Communism but not Stalin, which is the general trend amongst my paternal family.

Stalin's involvement in instigating the holodomor famine, which I believe you refer to, is still widely contested, in nowhere as much as Russia, where there is still a fairly significant proportion who deny its existance.

Stalin's status in Russia is akin to that of Churchill. The brutal purges of the 30's and 40's are sidelined in Russia, in preference for his integral role in defeating Nazi Germany.

I believe there was a proposal to place a memorial to those who perished under Stalin in Moscow, which was met with widespread outrage and forced to be scrapped.

Killing three times more than Hitler? I contest those statistics.

But anyway..//

 

[Shibbyman]

There's still many people alive who remember living in the soviet countries under Stalin's rule. His death count of killing three times more people than Hitler?

"The stigmatism of Stalin really only exists in the west."

Really? He was Time magazine's man of the year in the west. Try studying the conditions people lived in under his communism or ask the people who were around during his reign how much they liked it. He's a villian to people who were oppressed by him. Stalin's mass Ukranian starvation isn't villified? There's also the Katyn Massacre in which Stalin ordered to kill 15,000 Polish officers. So his opression of Poland, Germany, Ukraine, Armenia, Russia and other countries isn't enough?
You don't realize that Stalin had a few "Jewish Purges" too while telling Americans he did not support antisemitism?

A number of the playable leaders were horrible, disgusting people and some might say that a few of them were worse than Hitler (I am not trying to start a "Hitler vs. Stalin" argument here). Also, the choosing of Time's "Man of the Year", much like the choosing of Civ leaders should be, is based on influence and has nothing to do with Time, or the West as a whole, condoning or condeming the featured person's actions or view point.

"Despite the magazine's frequent statements to the contrary, the designation is often regarded as an honor, and spoken of as an award or prize, simply based on many previous selections of admirable people.[4] Thus, journalists frequently describe latest choice as having joined the ranks of past winners such as Martin Luther King; however, those such as Adolf Hitler in 1938, and Joseph Stalin in 1939 and again in 1942 have also been granted the title."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Person_of_the_Year

To say that the editors of Time are closet Stalinists when they have also featured people like Lech Wałęsa really takes a leap of imagination.

 

[Comrade Alex]

I saw a documentary where Lech Wałęsa was interviewed.

Turns out he's just a horrible man, contrary to all that Solidarnos'c business.
:/

 

[ICNP]

What is it with Poland? What about Austria-Hungary? They fought in WW1 and Napolean!