Does using Slavery hurt my game?

[drkodos]

Overuse of the whip, whipping at the wrong time, and whipping in the wrong city is absolutely detrimental to your burgeoning nation.

When you whip away potential unhappies at the moment the city is about to grow past the hapcap you effectively do not loose any commerce at all since the next pop point was not going to be working a tile anyway.

I've been to the mountain.

 

[Mutineer]

First, if you whipping 2 population, first should be regrow next turn.
Optimally you should use whip when your granary is -4 to grow. reducing size of city by 2 will lover grow requerements by 4 making granary full.

So, first pipulation regrow 0 turn.

As city grow bigger whip become less efficient. If your city take 25 turn to regrow it is better not to whipe at all.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

First, if you whipping 2 population, first should be regrow next turn.
Optimally you should use whip when your granary is -4 to grow. reducing size of city by 2 will lover grow requerements by 4 making granary full.

So, first pipulation regrow 0 turn.

As city grow bigger whip become less efficient. If your city take 25 turn to regrow it is better not to whipe at all.

Careful.

a) your first population would regrow on turn as soon as you hit next turn, but the growth happens after the production is calculated, so you do lose a turn of work.

b) production efficiency is not relevent in this scenario - the goal isn't hammers, it's research (you don't have to accept that premise, but to deny it is to be solving a different problem). Making the whips more efficient does nothing for your research.

 

[UncleJJ]

Careful.

b) production efficiency is not relevent in this scenario - the goal isn't hammers, it's research (you don't have to accept that premise, but to deny it is to be solving a different problem). Making the whips more efficient does nothing for your research.

I think that it is a mistake to only consider the research output and ignore the hammers. The output from the two ways of building the library and running the city should be compared in terms of the number of hammers and the amount of beakers over time.

If a library is built using slavery then the normal hammers produced afterwards are additional output. Apart from building anything more useful if Alphabet is assumed these normal hammers can be used to build research. That would at least help the slavery case and should be added although hammers are usually much more valuable than beakers.

Building the library slowly using normal hammers not only delays the library but also uses up all the normal hammers.

Comparing the slavery case to the baseline normal build method we have the following cost benefit analysis.

Assuming 2 pop are whipped then getting the library early gives:
a) a 25% bonus to all beakers from commerce (remember trade routes and city squares etc. not just cottages) over the period the library is available early.
b) +2 culture per turn ... e.g. 20 turns @ 2 = 40 culture which can be important for popping a border or grabbing a resource.
c) 60 normal hammers to be used on units or other buildings or even to build research

This comes at a cost of:
d) commerce lost from working cottages during regrowth period
e) slowing of cottage growth which impacts on future commerce for the period it is delayed

The benefits are fixed but the costs are dependent on the rate of regrowth. That in turn is dependent only on city size and food surplus.

 

[Wodan]

Okay here are a few test runs. First off, if anyone disagrees with the parameters of any particular game, tell me what you prefer, and I'll run a test using those parameters.

The 2nd col is the # of turns remaining to research Computers. That's the tech that VoU set up in the initial file, which is fine. For our purposes, all that matters is that a lower number is better. It means we have generated more research.

The 3rd col is # of hammers produced. That is, the leftover hammers. A higher number is better.

Important: I ran the test up until 1AD. The reason I did this is because it allowed all cottages to mature to Towns for all test cases. Thus, the end state is identical in all cases. This allows us to compare apples-to-apples for research and hammers.

A 142 86 FC auto (Food & Commerce), whip library when 1 unhappy and about to get 2nd and costs 2 pop, then stay on FC until max pop (happens immediately), then manually work all grass cottages, when whip unhappy goes away work a 5th cottage.
B 144 90 FC auto, whip granary when costs 1pop size 4 and about to get size 5, whip Library when 1 unhappy and about to get 2nd and costs 2 pop, then stay on FC until max pop (happens immediately), then manually work all grass cottages, when whip unhappy goes work a 5th cottage.
C 141 88 FPC auto until unhappy, then switch to working 1 mine 1 farm and 3 cottages (only need 1 turn at this state to build Library but would have stayed longer if needed), then all grass cottages.
D 145 57 Work all grass cottages. Whip when size5 and about to get 1 unhappy.
E 146 155 Work 3 grass then 2 hill cottages. No whip.
F 135 215 FC auto until max pop, then 3 grass and 2 hill cottages. No whip.

Note: Selecting FC auto works rice and farms first, and then cottages when size 4 and above.
Note: Working all cottages is not possible with citizen automation and must be done manually.
Note: FPC auto works rice and farms, then 2 mines, then grass cottage with 6th pop

 

[Wodan]

My comments on the results.
The no-Slavery case F was best on both research and hammers. Note that we worked 2 hills cottages rather than all grasslands. (A hills cottage is identical to a plains cottages for these purposes, so this would be a fairly common city in any given game.)

It's also interesting that the hills cottage even beat the mines. I think this is because the commerce generation from the cottages beats the benefit you get from the Library. Thus, hurrying up the Library is inferior to working cottages earlier. However, a 1-1 comparison between test C and D indicates the opposite. A good follow-up test would be to work FPC, then switch to 3 grass and 2 hill cottages.

I'm seeing that Slavery is not helping. It's either comparative or worse in all cases. Given that there is also a cost to running the civic (we could be running serfdom), this is telling.

Again, if anyone disagrees, tell me parameters and I would be glad to run follow-up tests.

Also, the Granary doesn't help. I think the Granary will be most helpful where Slavery is used to excess... repeated whipping. Interesting though, that a Granary is not a good idea if you don't plan to use Slavery. Challenges the notion that a Granary is always a good first build.

One thing that complicates things is that we aren't considering either overflow food or the benefits of non-Library buildings. Presumably, we could build temples, theatres, etc, and thus increase our city size, and thus get more future potential. However, conceptually we could use the overflow hammers to build these other things, and thus we would have great research coming in along with the future growth as well.

Wodan

 

[Paeanblack]

I'm assuming this example city originally posted is about a real city in a real game, or at least fairly representative of one. The question on my mind is:

Why are you building a library here in the first place?

Can't you increase your science more than 4bpt by:

A) Build 2.5 more axemen. Use them as sacrificial fodder in capturing another city.

B) Build a settler and cram in another fishing village. Borrow a nearby food tile for a few turns.


The other option to a library is failing to build a wonder. Assuming you are running <100% research, building a wonder for which you have the bonus resource pays off pretty well:

Assuming the following:
-Access to copper, stone, or marble
-No markets
-Library, Academy in capital.
-Capital still generating most of total beakers.

90 Hammers * 200% production multiplier = 180 gold
180 gold / 100% gold multiplier = 180 commerce
180 commerce * 175% science multiplier = 315 beakers.

Under relatively common conditions, one Classical Age hammer in a fringe city will convert directly to 3.5 beakers. That's alot of research to forgo by building just a library. It's not until a city is pumping out 40 commerce or so does building a library really generate more research than the alternatives.

 

[cabert]

Okay here are a few test runs. First off, if anyone disagrees with the parameters of any particular game, tell me what you prefer, and I'll run a test using those parameters.

The 2nd col is the # of turns remaining to research Computers. That's the tech that VoU set up in the initial file, which is fine. For our purposes, all that matters is that a lower number is better. It means we have generated more research.

The 3rd col is # of hammers produced. That is, the leftover hammers. A higher number is better.

Important: I ran the test up until 1AD. The reason I did this is because it allowed all cottages to mature to Towns for all test cases. Thus, the end state is identical in all cases. This allows us to compare apples-to-apples for research and hammers.

A 142 86 FC auto (Food & Commerce), whip library when 1 unhappy and about to get 2nd and costs 2 pop, then stay on FC until max pop (happens immediately), then manually work all grass cottages, when whip unhappy goes away work a 5th cottage.
B 144 90 FC auto, whip granary when costs 1pop size 4 and about to get size 5, whip Library when 1 unhappy and about to get 2nd and costs 2 pop, then stay on FC until max pop (happens immediately), then manually work all grass cottages, when whip unhappy goes work a 5th cottage.
C 141 88 FPC auto until unhappy, then switch to working 1 mine 1 farm and 3 cottages (only need 1 turn at this state to build Library but would have stayed longer if needed), then all grass cottages.
D 145 57 Work all grass cottages. Whip when size5 and about to get 1 unhappy.
E 146 155 Work 3 grass then 2 hill cottages. No whip.
F 135 215 FC auto until max pop, then 3 grass and 2 hill cottages. No whip.

Note: Selecting FC auto works rice and farms first, and then cottages when size 4 and above.
Note: Working all cottages is not possible with citizen automation and must be done manually.
Note: FPC auto works rice and farms, then 2 mines, then grass cottage with 6th pop

interesting results!
Although, the last situation doesn't feature a granary, does it?
My "common sense" use of the whip is still that a good tile has priority over a good whip (emergency cases apart).
The artificial aspect of the test (hey, it's a test, you cannot expect it otherwise) makes one thing forgotten :
growth of the empire

= higher happiness
= opportunities for bigger cities
= more value to a granary

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Why are you building a library here in the first place?

I think that's a great question. My answer is "because that's what I usually do in young cottage towns". It's not a great immediate investment, but I usually prefer it to the other options I have availble (some of that is style choice, some is perhaps a reflection of not planning my options well for the opening).

With the happy cap where it is, there isn't a clearly superior choice for a builder. Wonders, if they are available, can only be built in one city at a time. Military is only a reasonable choice if you use it, and I find that war during this phase of the game is more effective than enjoyable.

And of course for an early cottage town, the library might be the source for the culture pop (if you have the grassland you need at hand, you really aren't in any hurry - as far as local concerns go).


Wodan's answers seem to match the ones I was getting, which did not match my expectations, which is to say that under the obvious conditions whipping a library doesn't appear to improve research over building the library the slow way. The justification for the whip has to be that you prefer the hammers (for whatever purpose).

The side discovery for me was that the granary didn't help. It ought to have been obvious, but with the happy cap at five the granary doesn't complete in time to improve your chances (beyond, again, the extra hammers you acrue).

 

[cabert]

I'd like to see another kind of test, more in phase with something I know:

second city starts without culture, with only a handful of tiles improved (or even none) and a worker (or 2, but I tend to go 1 worker /city on average).

Here, you cannot expect to work a good tile with your second pop, for a while. Which in return makes it worthwhile to build a granary to have a faster growth later.
In the same way, you cannot expect to improve tiles over you first ring before the culture is here = 5 turns after the library.
Which in turn makes the library a higher priority.

I must also underline that prior to the library or CoL, you cannot affect specialists = no way to usefully prevent the growth (the citizen specialist is really no good).

This all isn't saying that this test isn't valid.
It shows very clearly that under optimal circumstances (all tile types available, no war, no culture issue, ...), slavery is inferior to a good tile usage.
Which is beyond my expectations. I really thought solution A would be better, even in such a situation.
I may try option A1, meaning whipping the library asap (not regarding anything else),
and option A2, meaning building a granary while waiting to be size 6, and whip the library for 3 pop.

But anyway, thanks again for this nice test.

edit : one more issue anout this test. At size 4 or 5, a library isn't a very big thing. 25% improvement is only worth 1 more town. Meaning that it's not a high priority, as underlined by Paenblack.

 

[Thomas G.]

You are forgetting another good use of a library - hire specialists.

One typical situation could be:
City, low production, high food.

A good way to develop this city:
Whip granary
Whip library
Grow to max/Hire scientists
Cackle as the GPs roll in from this and other similar cities.

Granary is NOT a waste here, it will continue to help city growth, and this city will continue to whip units whenever possible. Whipping in high-food low-prod cities is almost always good. At least as long as you can afford more military units.

But there is a good discussion about young cottage-cities vs. the whip. Growing the cottages are high priority, and must more worthwhile than getting a library. I guess this is because a fresh cottage gives 1 coin, mature gives 2 which is a 100% increase. (+200% for a fin.)While a library gives +25%, far worse. And in addition, the 25% only applies to the research, so if science % is lower than 100% its even less. (At 80% you only get +20% from library, at 60% +15%and so on)

Still, with one food resource your city will quickly grow to unhappiness, and then of course it's just as well to whip something anyway.

 

[Wodan]

I don't think the test was all that unrealistic. Yes, the tiles were already improved. However, it's not unrealistic to expect the capitol to provide the new city with a worker, thus the worker could have simply been keeping pace with growth, easily creating a cottage/mine/farm on a tile by the time it was needed.

I agree that a Granary will be more useful as a "1st whip" IFF future repeated whippings are planned.

Yet, the underlying point is still there: we whip whip whip and yes we have a nice city with Granary, Library, Market, Temple or two, Theatre, you name it. But we've had absolutely no research (because we've been working the rice and farms to regrow from the whip). Does the benefit / end result justify this loss? The test would tend to say no.

Also note that we are losing early research in favor of later gains. We all know that is a huge negative right there. (cf Lightbulbing etc.)

Wodan

ps: Again, I remain convinced that Slavery is a Good Thing (tm). My doubts are increasing, however.

 

[cabert]

because we've been working the rice and farms to regrow from the whip

IMHO that is a mistake. I only do this in the whipping farm aka globe theater.

In commerce cities, I whip the library then regrow slowly by working cottages :
- first regrowth will be fast anyway thanks to granary and stored food
- next regrowth will give you unhappiness, what's the urge?

If you don't need the hammers right after the whip, you can storage the overflow by building research until a useful build is available (courthouse or market, whatever).

 

[pigswill]

The test does demonstrate that whipping is inferior to growth for commerce cities which is well worth realising. There may be a case for having one or two military cities with granary and barracks who's role is solely to whip units so it could be worthwhile comparing production using natural growth and mines to whipping and farms.

 

[Paeanblack]

I think that's a great question. My answer is "because that's what I usually do in young cottage towns". It's not a great immediate investment, but I usually prefer it to the other options I have availble (some of that is style choice, some is perhaps a reflection of not planning my options well for the opening).

I don't think "because it's a young cottage town" is enough to justify a library at the stage of the game were talking about. Eventually, a library is worthwhile, but there are other ways 90 hammers can be converted to research at this stage.

Nobody seems to have come up with a way to generally quantify the time-value of beakers, but it's clear that a beaker now is worth more than a beaker later. Depending on the details of the particular game, that difference can be very large.

Wonders, if they are available, can only be built in one city at a time.

In practice, you can effectively build the same wonder in multiple cities simultaneously with tile juggling. Instead of balancing the food budget every turn, switching to all high-production tiles for a single turn and then switching back to growth for several turns is close to the same result. If you stagger the high-production/negative-food spurts across different cities, they can each build the wonder at the same time.

I have actually built cities specifically for this purpose. A size three city with one plains hill and two grass hills generates 35 beakers/turn by failing to build wonders in a typical game during the Classical Era.

How long does a young cottage city take to get to 35 beakers/turn? Eventually that cottage city will generate even more beakers, but going back to the beaker-now or beakers-later tradeoff, which city contributes more to the empire? It's tough to say.



Anyways, my whole point is that "cottage town" doesn't automatically mean "library"...there are alternatives. I don't know where the breakpoint actually is, but I'm fairly convinced that a size 5-6 cottage town doesn't rate a library. It would be interesting to see this exercise applied to a city in the 8-10 range.

 

[cabert]

I'm with PaeanBlack here (almost).
You don't build the library for the city at size 5, you build it for the rest of the game, hoping to grow further than size 5 obviously.

 

[UncleJJ]

I don't think "because it's a young cottage town" is enough to justify a library at the stage of the game were talking about. Eventually, a library is worthwhile, but there are other ways 90 hammers can be converted to research at this stage.

Nobody seems to have come up with a way to generally quantify the time-value of beakers, but it's clear that a beaker now is worth more than a beaker later. Depending on the details of the particular game, that difference can be very large.

If you are going to build a library in a city eventually why not build it as soon as possible? Clearly other things like building up a stack of axemen for an early rush could take priority... but that depends on your strategy. An early library is a strong play in many situations.

I don't think there is a good way to establish that a few early beakers are better than more beakers later. Early beakers, or more accurately perhaps, getting a tech early is only better than getting it later if you make use of it in the meantime. Why research a tech before you can use it? That only makes it easier for any AI that you are in contact with to research that tech, a definite case of early beakers being worse than later ones... If you can make use of a tech, including trading it for another useful tech, then go for it, otherwise consider alternatives, which just might slow down the tech rate. It is a complex subject and there is no obvious answer.

In practice, you can effectively build the same wonder in multiple cities simultaneously with tile juggling. Instead of balancing the food budget every turn, switching to all high-production tiles for a single turn and then switching back to growth for several turns is close to the same result. If you stagger the high-production/negative-food spurts across different cities, they can each build the wonder at the same time.

I have actually built cities specifically for this purpose. A size three city with one plains hill and two grass hills generates 35 beakers/turn by failing to build wonders in a typical game during the Classical Era.

How long does a young cottage city take to get to 35 beakers/turn? Eventually that cottage city will generate even more beakers, but going back to the beaker-now or beakers-later tradeoff, which city contributes more to the empire? It's tough to say.

If I understand what you are suggesting here it is borderline cheating, or an exploit, as far as I'm concerned and so it just doesn't count. Building more than one instance of a wonder and gaining multiple amounts of gold (from several cities) when the AI beats you to completion is a bug IMHO and should be fixed. I can accept you getting the greatest amount of gold from the most complete wonder but the other instances should be lost hammers.

Anyways, my whole point is that "cottage town" doesn't automatically mean "library"...there are alternatives. I don't know where the breakpoint actually is, but I'm fairly convinced that a size 5-6 cottage town doesn't rate a library. It would be interesting to see this exercise applied to a city in the 8-10 range.

I agree a library is not an automatic early build but it often is a good one and should be considered nearly always. You can build it for any or all of three good reasons:
a) For 2 culture / turn,
b) For the +25% beaker bonus,
c) To enable 2 scientist specialists.
As I said at the start "If you are going to build a library in a city eventually why not build it as soon as possible?"

 

[Wodan]

IMHO that is a mistake. I only do this in the whipping farm aka globe theater.

Actually, that's often what I do too. However, discussions with others on the boards here will find that's not the prevalent thinking. People seem to feel growing to max size and THEN working cottages/specialists provides more commerce/etc in the long term.

Even if true, personally I feel that getting the earlier benefit is better than a slightly larger long-term number.

In addition, I'm not sure it's true. The test would seem to indicate otherwise. (See below.)

- next regrowth will give you unhappiness, what's the urge?

In the test, the unhappy went away before the regrow. This is probably because we whipped for 2 once only, whereas often whipping is for 1 repeatedly (repeated 1's will result in more cumulative unhappiness).

The test ran several comparisons, several working food until reaching the limit, and several working cottages the entire time (no food). Even so, anytime we reach the unhappy limit, whether due to whip penalty or due to simply reaching the max, we switch from food to cottages. The test showed that working the food first gave better results.

Wodan

 

[Paeanblack]

As I said at the start "If you are going to build a library in a city eventually why not build it as soon as possible?"

If your goal is to increase research, 90 hammers in the Classical Age can be often converted to more beakers than the library will provide from a secondary cottage city of size 5-6. The opportunity cost of building infrastructure too early can be significant.

 

[UncleJJ]

If your goal is to increase research, 90 hammers in the Classical Age can be often converted to more beakers than the library will provide from a secondary cottage city of size 5-6. The opportunity cost of building infrastructure too early can be significant.

There could be reasons for not building a library now, and building it some time later. I have already acknowledged that. However, I don't accept your suggestion of pretending to build the same wonder in multiple cities is a legitimate reason.

My point is simply that your city of size 5-6 will eventually grow to size 15 to 16 and then a library will be a great investment... worth as much as adding 25% more cottages to city and it will still cost 90 hammers. The earlier you add the library the greater the return will be from its +25% bonus and the more culture it will output.