Doughnut Files Term 7 - 9

I think we want to respond fairly quickly to keep this moving. Points to make:

  • We are interested in Gunpowder - what would they want for it?
  • We have considered the idea of Newton's to start our GA, but it is so far away that we haven't reached a decision yet.
  • Of course we are interested in their help researching, but we still think that our combined research will be better if we research the techs, and they buy them cheap. What do they have in mind?
 
Here is a draft

Dear Robi_D

Thank you for your interesting proposal.

To answer your question, yes we are indeed interested in Gunpowder.

The swiftness that you can supply this knowledge is most unexpected as we were under the impression that you were currently under an obligation to supply Education to KISS.

So we would like to know the following;

1. Do you still require Education?
2. Is it KISS that are researching Gunpowder at the moment? If so is there no restriction of trading on this technology to us?
3. What would you want for Gunpowder?
4. What is your current status with KISS?

Regarding the Newton's Observatory, we have in fact been discussing it in general terms along with all possibilities to achieve our Golden Age, at this stage it remains an option to consider into the future.

As mentioned we are very interested in forming an alliance, of which research would certainly play an important. We still believe that we could achieve our mutual ends swifter with us utilizing our Scientific trait and you using your Commercial benefit. However we are open to discuss any ideas you may have on this.

One thing that we would require an answer to is the stipulation that any type of arrangement we enter into would have to be totally exclusive to KISS.

We have sent an observer Galley into the war zone and can inform you that KISS are maintaining their pressure on TNT and will most likely be taking an important city soon. A city that if it falls, will probably irrevocably change the game and will ensure that TNT will be but a footnote in the history books.

Sincerely

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Offices.
Click to expand...

EDIT - Added point 4.
 
Very interesting.

Draft letter looks great to me Fe!

Here's a note I was composing before I saw your draft letter.
I like the letter, and don't think any of what I've written here should change that… but I'll still post this, just so you can see more of what I'm thinking about the whole thing.



Reading between the lines in the Dnut note, I think it's safe to say that the Dnuts are still hoping to play KISS and MIA off eachother. (Can hardly blame them, it may be their best shot to get back in the game). I'm guessing our exclusivity clauses are what caused the most debate, and explains why they are eager to have straight-across tech trades.

If they can actually pull Gunpowder (1440b) on turn 141, then that's a good deal for us. (we're really almost more interested in timing than in beaker cost at this point). If they can't get Gunpowder before turn 143 – then we don't want to do the trade.

And what would we trade? The closest option we have is Banking (1560b monopoly) – monopoly cost is 120 beakers more than Gpowder. (it would actually only take 1365b for the Nuts to get it, because we already have it, but gunpowder will cost less for us if the Nuts get it on turn 141 also.)

I'd be ok with making that straight swap, but from there – making any trades with the Nutters would be difficult.
They'd have to stockpile gold for 4 turns while we get Chemistry. Then they'd have to pay us for Chemistry, and still be able to research Metallurgy in 10 turns (while we get physics and ToG) – requiring them to do 192 beakers per turn or better. Then we'd swap Metallurgy for Physics straight across. With their low military costs, it's probably not unreasonable to think the Dnuts could do this.

If we agree to this without exclusivity, then we're likely to see the Nutters trade with KISS for Astronomy. But I don't see any other big trades they'd be able to arrange.

Upshot:
Nuts Gets: Banking, Chemistry, Physics (Astronomy from KISS?)
MIA Gets: Gunpowder, Gold, Metallurgy (6 turns ahead on research plan)
KISS Gets: (Chemistry from Nuts?)

I don't like that nearly as well as our exclusive MIA researches and Nuts pay plan. But I don't think I'm really opposed to this kind of deal either.

But it all depends on Nuts actually being able to get Gunpowder on turn 141.
We need some more clarification.

Hopefully all my rambling has helped move the discussion forward.
:salute:
 
I agree the letter looks good.:thumbsup:

I disagree with General_W that we are more interested in timing than in beaker cost right now. Even if we get Gunpowder on 144 or 145 (for example), we can easily shave a turn off a future tech (like Physics) to make up for our lost turns thanks to our running 0% research for several turns while waiting for Gunpowder.

Keep in mind Astronomy is required for Physics. Even though Astronomy is more expensive than Banking, it may be worthwhile to trade Astronomy for Gunpowder (plus gold if we are not getting future exclusivity) just to open more trade options. Regardless of future exclusivity, I think it is obvious that even if we make a one-time deal, whatever we send Dnuts must not be traded on to KISS.

All of that is a good start on future discussions, but I agree that Feaurius' letter is great and should be sent as it is so it is back to the Dnuts to tell us what they are thinking.
 
We gotta watch these buggers ... closely

Robi D said:
To answer your questions quickly,

Yes it is KISS that is researching Gunpowder and yes we still need to give them Education, but they are in need of some luxuries and would like us to supply them some of our newly acquired ones.

As for not passing it on to you guys
1. This deal is outside of the treaty and
2. They don't have to know we traded it to you do they;)

If this interest you and you don't mind putting one over KISS we can talk about it in more details soon (i'm in a bit of a rush this morning)

Robi D
Click to expand...

Robi_D and I will chat soon (he jumps me usually in the most inopportune time) so what info and assurances do we want from them.

Do we want to get Gems by giving them Education now?

EDIT ... I know I am being stupid but I think I'll ask what caveat is in place with their KISS deal ... if Nuts do go back on a formal treaty, the admins may have to act ... I'd prefer to wait the stipulated time. I guess I'm being over sporting and fair :(

Team can out vote me regarding whether we accept the offer ... but I will endeauvour to find out the details for their deal.
 
Fe – I believe the Admins have made it clear that no team MUST follow any treaties they sign. If you break a treaty, it just costs reputation… it’s not breaking the MTDG rules.

But I know you feel strongly about keeping your word… but you’ve got to remember, we haven’t promised anything to anyone at this point. (Except peace with KISS till turn 166)

Anyway – since the Nuts are nearing education anyway… we could offer to give it them for Gems… might gain us some goodwill. But I wonder how many Gems the Nutters have to trade away?
 
I hear what you are saying :D

It just makes me worried about how far we can trust them.

I guess if we do enter into an extended period of exclusivity with Nuts, we will have to watch closely KISS' aquisition of technology.

I guess we should press Nuts to make a choice between us and KISS ... as far as I am concerned it is now time for 2 vs. 1 and any deal we make with Nuts MUST exclude KISS.

:lol: The non-paranoid way of interpreting the letter is that Nuts have already made their choice.

Question ... are we happy for Nuts to continue to trade luxes with KISS?
 
As of the last save, the Dnuts did not show extra gems on F2, so it may be a non-issue. I wouldn't bring it up if they don't.

Of course we would prefer Dnuts not to trade luxuries with KISS, but I think that's asking too much. If we can get exclusivity on tech trades (and maybe a guarantee that the wine will keep flowing as well), then that should be good enough.

Dnuts are definitely the least trustworthy team remaining, but we have to work with them - we just have to recognize the possibility of betrayal and deal with it.
 
Robi D said:
If this interest you and you don't mind putting one over KISS we can talk about it in more details soon
Click to expand...

Can we poke them to get more details regarding Gunpowder? We will have finished Astronomy when we get the save, and there is nothing for us to research besides Gunpowder. We don't want to waste money researching it if we are going to trade for it, but we also don't want to turn research off if we are not trading for it.
 
:agree:
Yes - we are running out of time. Dnuts really need to give us something more to go on here.

Although – re-reading the above correspondence, I can see how it's possible that the Dnuts are waiting on US! They are slippery…. But they're not the easiest to talk with. Remember all the "miscommunications" when we first met?

Anyway – what if we sent something like this:

---------------------
Dear Dnuts,

We have been eagerly awaiting further word from you on a potential Tech & Peace Deal, when it occurred to us that YOU may be waiting on us!
If you are just putting the final touches on a proposal, feel free to ignore this letter, and just send along the proposal you wrote for us to look at.
Unfortunately, we are under some time restrictions. Turn 139 will require us to make some key decisions (esp. in the area of Technology) and we need to know if we're going to have a deal with you or not.

RobiD gave us some brief indication of your current status and desires, so we have crafted the following proposal that we hope you will find beneficial!

Article 1 – Doughnuts and MIA hereby agree to a sweeping nonaggression treaty.
1.1 Neither side will attack the others units or cross the others borders without express permission.
1.2 This nonaggression treaty will last a minimum of 35 turns.
1.3 It can be canceled anytime after the 35th turn by 10 turns written notice to the other team.

Article 2 – Doughnuts and MIA hereby agree to cooperate on researching technology.
2.1 The Doughnuts will provide the secret of Gunpowder to MIA as soon as they receive it (turn 141), and MIA will reciprocate with the knowledge of either Banking or with Astronomy – Doughnut's choice.
2.2 If team Doughnut chooses to receive Astronomy for Gunpowder, they will also pay MIA 100 gold. (Gunpowder monopoly cost = 1440. Astronomy monopoly cost = 1680. Banking monopoly cost = 1560)
2.3 MIA will provide the chosen technology as soon as team Doughnut has the required prerequisite technology.
2.4 Upon receiving Gunpowder, MIA will immediately being researching at top speed to learn the secret of Chemistry (Monopoly beaker cost = 1800). Immediately upon leaning this technology, MIA will make it available to team Doughnut for 1/3 the value in gold = 600 gold.
2.5 Doughnuts may pay MIA for Chemistry with a) one lump sum of 600 gold, b) 10 equal payments of 63 gold, or c) 20 equal payments of 35 gold. Doughnuts choice.
2.6 Once MIA has completed Chemistry, they will immediately begin work on Physics (monopoly beaker cost = 1920). Dnuts will begin work on Metallurgy (monopoly beaker Cost = 1920). As soon as these techs are done, they will be traded straight across.
2.7 MIA and Doughnuts hereby agree to not trade any technology received from the other team to team KISS without the express permission of the other team.
2.8 MIA and Doughnuts hereby agree that even after the final tech trade specified in this agreement is completed, they will give first preference to the other team in future tech proposals, at least for the rest of the Middle Ages.

We hope the numbering system will help us clearly discuss any concerns or modifications you'd like to discuss on this treaty.

Again – we hate to put pressure on you – but we have some key decision to make here soon, and the longer it takes us to get a deal, certain things (like Gunpowder) will become less valuable to us. Even if we can get a broad agreement in principle, we are confident we can satisfactorily resolve any minor issues that remain.

Looking forward to hearing from you and to many years of peace and cooperation!

All the Best,
Your Friends across the Sea,
MIA

------------------------------------

This does tip our hand a little bit on what technology we have and when we'll have it. But they're going to find out soon anyway, and I'm not sure how we apply the right pressure to get this thing done without SOME explination.

Anyway – as always – this is just a starting place!
Hope it help!

:salute:
 
Wow, very impressive.

Unfortunately, I think that's a little too far-reaching for the quick response we want. I agree that is an excellent framework for our hopeful future agreement, but something like that we will want to debate here instead of sending right away, and then Dnuts will doubtless take a while to get back to us defeating the whole purpose.

I think a simple "Whaddaya want for 'Powder?" will suffice right now. As long as they are reasonable (which I think they will be because they want to trade Gunpowder for something), we should have no problem getting Gunpowder from them.

If Fe3333au gets someone in a chat, we can tell them we can provide either Banking or Astronomy within a reasonable time - it may be necessary for them to provide gold along with Gunpowder to equalize costs, but the amount of gold will be reduced (possibly to nothing in the case of Banking) if we can sign a future agreement.

Really, I think all we need to know right now is are their expectations for a Gunpowder trade realistic or did they go to the KISS School of Negotiations.
 
But as long as General_W went through the effort to write that, we might as well start the doctoring process in case it falls to us to write the final proposal…

1.1 Maybe “end the turn within the other’s land borders” or something instead. We habitually cross their borders on the seas – Astronomy may make that less necessary, but we may still want to sail through their territory.

2.1 It does give away more information than I’d like right now, but hopefully by the time we are ready to send it, it will be OK :).

2.6 It dodges the issue of what will happen if DNuts elect Banking now, then we can’t give them Physics later. I’m also a little nervous about having Dnuts research Metallurgy without knowing how fast they can get it. We need Military Tradition timely.

2.7 I’d like this to be a little stronger – “can’t trade, sell, or gift” instead of just “trade”.

2.8 More of General_W’s flowery toothless language :rolleyes: :D
 
This situation just got a little clearer - Dnuts now have Education. They should know we have Banking since we had it on their last turn. They don't know we just got Astronomy, but they will know once the save gets back to them.

On the other hand, Dnuts and KISS both have Gunpowder now.
 
Wow! They've been totally spinning us on those finish times for the Technology.

(and nice 3-post there Mr. President!)

These Dnuts are more slippery than snot on a baby's bottom. :p

So - should we send a note like...
Hey Dnuts!

We notice that you got Education and Gunpowder much quicker than we were expecting. Are we still on for a trade?
Please respond as soon as possible. We have some key decisions to make.

Thanks.
Your friends across the Sea,
MIA
Click to expand...

I wanted to write something a bit more hostile... but this is probably the best approach for now.
Thoughts?

And where's Fe?!?
 
Our rivals' tech pace is faster than I expected:

Dnuts Theology - 132
Education - 139

KISS Invention - 131
Gunpowder - 139

I'm not surprised by KISS researching that well in their Golden Age, but I am shocked Dnuts got Education in just 7 turns. Maybe the prices we were thinking of offering to them are too low...
 
Sent to Robi_D

Title ... Let's Chat
Hi Robi

Would love to chat about your proposal.

We are interested but still need some things cleared up.

I will PM you something 'interesting' later this evening if we havn't chatted yet.

MIA
Click to expand...
 
Robi_D chat

RobiD77: hi fe
fe3333au: hi ... can I make coffee or yu in rush?
RobiD77: how are things
fe3333au: good ... raining here
RobiD77: i got like 15mins to chat so go make a cuppa, in fact i might do the same :-)
fe3333au: back
fe3333au: So you got gunpowder early :)
RobiD77: They gave it to us last turn i think, it a bit hard for me atm i can't find my civ3 cd
fe3333au: no ... that is bad news :-(
RobiD77: Also sorry if my communications of late have been rushed, work has been a nighmare, had a big order to get out and the testing machines decided to play up, it was ment to been out on friday, we just got it finished an hour ago
fe3333au: that's cool
RobiD77: on the plus side i have a three day weekend this week for all my overtime
fe3333au: :-D
fe3333au: So does your letter indicate what you want for Gunpowder?
RobiD77: yes, my friends having his birthday tonight so i'll be heading off in an hour. You have caught me while im still sober:-)
fe3333au: LOL
RobiD77: well i've got an extra two days to slepp it off lol

Tech swapping with KISS over
fe3333au: So KISS arrangement is now over?
RobiD77: yes
RobiD77: we sent education
fe3333au: We already have it ;)

The preliminary idea
RobiD77: now how does this deal sound to you guys ... Gunpowder banking and gold for astronomy, physics and ToG ... That way you can get your GA
fe3333au: We give banking for Gunpowder ... You pay for Astronomy?
RobiD77: we'll research banking
fe3333au: Oh and we do astro, physics, ToG
RobiD77: since you guys can research quicker you can probably do physics as well, then we will give you cash for ToG
RobiD77: yeah

Exclude KISS from tech deals
fe3333au: Will it exclude passing onto KISS?
RobiD77: thats up to you guys, but i don't think we should exclude the possibilty of trading with KISS if we can both benefit from it :D ... use them up a little if you know what i mean
fe3333au: as long as both MIA and Nts agree, then selling onto KISS is acceptible
RobiD77: we wouldn't trade just for our benefit of course, if we are cooperating in the research
fe3333au: otherwise ... I know that some of the MIA would be uncomfortable with you guys selling tech onto KISS
RobiD77: like i said, if we both agree
fe3333au: excellent

PM us your draft
fe3333au: so you will PM the written document?
RobiD77: sure ... i've got some free time coming up :-D ... for a change
fe3333au: that's good

KISS Pyramids ??
fe3333au: we noticed that KISS are building Pyramids atm ... know what they are upto?
RobiD77: no, don't have a clue what they are doing except for their war effort
fe3333au: they are certainly speeding up the extinction rate :-)
RobiD77: yes, different tnt player same crappy fighting tactics
fe3333au: every turn is played by different player
RobiD77: yeah but tnt's tactics remain the same, they stacked a bunch of oikes in a city in our path so we went around it and found the next city along completely empty
fe3333au: LOL
RobiD77: lol
fe3333au: That's sooo coool :-D

KISS Internal Fracture ... Nut based ??
RobiD77: i tried to grill whomp a little about why he is an ex- potkiss
fe3333au: internal situation caused a little rift ...
RobiD77: he would go into details the cheeky bugger, but i get the feeling there was a difference of opinion in the team about something, he wouldn't say what but i have a feeling it was to do with the doughnuts
fe3333au: I assumed that there was a war and a domestic faction ... Golden Age was sort of wasted on all the military
RobiD77: as for kiss i think it because some in the kiss camp were unhappy with the level of assistance they gave us ... but its just a guess
fe3333au: that's interesting ... and perhaps they didn't want you guys to capture cities ... they wanted it all
RobiD77: i dont know about that, because they still seem happy to have us attacking tnt from another front, i think it was more to do with the techs, hence why they didn't want to continue the trading agreement
RobiD77: i should say extend not continue since it was an agreed termination point
fe3333au: Sounds all too familiar LOL ... We are not so short sighted
RobiD77: again i can't say anything for sure its just a bit of educated guessing,
fe3333au: understand ... but you have more facts ... and therefore it could very well be related

Gems now secured
fe3333au: So I assume you took the gem city?
RobiD77: yes

:eek: <No Comment !!!>
RobiD77: the silks are next
fe3333au: excellent ... we like sparkly things ;-)
RobiD77: hehe ... spices too

TNT are RIP soon
RobiD77: there wont be a lot left of tnt
fe3333au: we already have consigned them to footnote status
RobiD77: lol
fe3333au: You guys running a poll .. how many turns until TNT are RIP?
RobiD77: if they play their cards right they can probably hold on to 2 cities for a fair while but thats it ... no actually
RobiD77: but its an idea
fe3333au: maybe fun in a UN poll
RobiD77: lol, that might get them riled up ... but then what are they going to do
fe3333au: not a damned thing ... maybe suicide themselves?
RobiD77: so far thats what they have been doing, lots of abandoned cities

Send us some paperwork
fe3333au: So you send us the proposal ... we will edit ... you will edit ... we then agree
RobiD77: sound good to me
RobiD77: hopefully i can find the damn cd so i can have a proper look in the game
fe3333au: you didn't take it with you on your working out of state thing?
RobiD77: no, had nothing to put it into
fe3333au: so it's at home ... no problem :-)
RobiD77: it probably fallen behind something, i'll have to give my room a good clean out tomorrow

Tech parity with Nuts and KISS
fe3333au: so at this stage you and KISS are on a tech parity?
RobiD77: pretty much
fe3333au: any idea what they going to research next?
RobiD77: no, we didn't know until a few turns ago they were doing gunpowder until they approached us
fe3333au: cool

<Interesting WW could be affecting KISS>
RobiD77: they only wanted luxs, so they must be suffering a fair bit of WW
fe3333au: That's good news too :-) ... together we should out tech them ... you may want to bolster defences ... cos they may get pissed off
RobiD77: hehe, let them come i say

<Candid Responce>
RobiD77: i'm not a dummy i have plans for all possiblities
fe3333au: as should we all
RobiD77: yes take no offence but we have one for you guys if you decide to get fresh with us ;-)
fe3333au: as do we ;-)
RobiD77: although we are compelety screwed if you both come at us
fe3333au: I'd be surprised if you didn't ... well that's why you must choose who to allign with ... and I think that you have chosen well
RobiD77: hehe you would say that ;-)
fe3333au: LOL
fe3333au: well it's logical aint it mate

TNT last stand musing
RobiD77: it will be interesting to see what KISS do if TNT decide to hole themselfs up in a city or two
fe3333au: well if I was them ... I'd peace with you ... but continue to war KISS ... but I'm not them ... so they will probably do something stupid like attack us
RobiD77: lol

Jokes of the Day
RobiD77: you know in the middle of the attack from kiss they pumped out a settler
fe3333au: NO WAY :wow:
RobiD77: thats what whomp told me
fe3333au: They probably built a lIbray as well
RobiD77: probably ... or a temple
fe3333au: yes so they could read a book in a sanctified room while they are getting killed
RobiD77: i don't know about you but if i just saw 8 gallics land next to one of my cities i wouldn't be thinking about settlers
fe3333au: They probably researching Printing Press
RobiD77: hehe ... they are an odd bunch really
fe3333au: Can't wait to sift through their forums after game has ended
RobiD77: there city planning their war planning have all been bemusing to say the least

The soon to be Refugee Issue
fe3333au: you guys going to offer a place for refos?
RobiD77: can't really stop them
fe3333au: We already added a non-voting for refo clause in the constitution
RobiD77: acutally me and whomp talked about that the other day too, the problem is all of them would be useless because they can't say anything because they have knowledge we wouldn't
fe3333au: yes ... I had an idea about locking their forum to all ... that way it would stop map info ... but it doesn't alter the knowledge gained from diplomacy, etc
RobiD77: yes ... they can't be more than lurkers
RobiD77: at best they might join a discussion about what to build next in a city
RobiD77: anything involving foreign contact would be virtually banned
fe3333au: Well they can input into builds, and research I guess ... and input on what not to do in military matters
RobiD77: possibly, but there is always the question on if their feeling come from what they know from before they joined

<ex-TNTers could be a good Tactics sounding board>
fe3333au: If they like a military plan ... change it fast LOL
RobiD77: lol ... yes a sure litmus test for failure ... hey donsig what do you think of our strategy, you like it ****, guys we need a new one this one ain't gonna work.
fe3333au: or I don't understand it ... OK guys it's a winner LOL

and then there was three
RobiD77: oh dear, it will be interesting once its down to three thats for sure
fe3333au: yes it will ... what is your prediction ... war or other methos of winning?
RobiD77: i can't see it being anything other than war atm
fe3333au: me either
RobiD77: we will probably have peace for a fair while but then its down to who starts to fall behind ... i bit like one of those showdowns in western movies, how will reach for the gun first
fe3333au: I can hear the whistling soundtrack now
RobiD77: hehe

KISS Treaty timelines ... was going to ask myself
RobiD77: actually just though of something, how long before your treaty with kiss ends
fe3333au: 166
RobiD77: hmmm
fe3333au: you guys are officially no longer confirmed peace?
RobiD77: no we are still peace, that was part of a different treaty
fe3333au: when will that end?
RobiD77: good question ... i think it comes up for renewal around t155
fe3333au: I have many 'good' questions ... Can you confirm when your peace ends with KISS for me ... in a PM?
RobiD77: sure

Nuts think (:hmmm: or hope) we next KISS target
RobiD77: i think they will go after you first
fe3333au: I also think we got a target on our walls
RobiD77: if i was them i would see that as the most sensible option
fe3333au: you could be right
RobiD77: well they know we are weaker than them, but we are also further away ... so even if they take a third of your cities it put them in a dominate position because we would still be trying to catch up to you two guys
fe3333au: good point
RobiD77: would explain why they are in a rush to finish off tnt
fe3333au: yes it would
RobiD77: they have the advantage of switching govt with only a turn of anarchy
fe3333au: yes ...

<added something other than just agreeing ... but listening intently> :mischief:
fe3333au: although I think they are doing us all a favour getting rid of TNT
RobiD77: no complaints from us

<He continues ... >
RobiD77: the other option is that they are waiting for communisim before making the push
fe3333au: Hopefully something will happen prior to that happening
RobiD77: hopefully ... i guess we will just have to wait and see

A warning ... nice and thanks
RobiD77: also as a word of warning, they have built a lot of boats
fe3333au: thanks ... makes sence
RobiD77: i know they need them to get accross to tnt, but given the distance they seem to have an excess if you know what i mean so if they do come after you guys they will probably try down the sides
fe3333au: yes ... full on frontal is too TNT a tactic
RobiD77: lol

<Stressing the naval element>
RobiD77: well if you see a bunch of galleys headed down the coast then you know troble is coming
fe3333au: yes it would not be a welcome sight

Cya
RobiD77: i better get going,, a party with lots of booze is calling me
fe3333au: I can hear it myself ... have a good one ... and send us your proposal and when peace with KISS runs out
RobiD77: no worries take care
fe3333au: cya
RobiD77: bye
RobiD77 signed off at 12:26:45 AM.
Click to expand...

Waiting for Proposal
Also ... Silks may be issue, but we can agree to endless Silks for Gems
 
Chamnix said:
Our rivals' tech pace is faster than I expected:

Dnuts Theology - 132
Education - 139

KISS Invention - 131
Gunpowder - 139

I'm not surprised by KISS researching that well in their Golden Age, but I am shocked Dnuts got Education in just 7 turns. Maybe the prices we were thinking of offering to them are too low...
Click to expand...
The thing is that we can out research both nations by ourselves, but it would be best for us to have the nuts on our side.
 
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