Dr kossin #27

[Riot]

Nice round! Samurai are disgusting! Those are fully fortified, full health Macemen and those lose that horribly, sheesh!

Neat that my prediction that Izzy would wonderwhore/religion spam.

Nice lucky break previous with Lizzy going FR for some reason...????

Anyway, doesn't look like anyone's going for culture so you don't have to worry about that least, so no deadlines breathing down your neck!

Diplomatic may still be possible though - Islam spreading to you is still a fair shot with all those turns left.

Cap Joao but let him keep the UN. If he has Cristo Redentor in another city, so much the better.

Mehmed's a good unitspammer but not the best techer. If you can't get his vote via Vassalage + gifts, just cap him too for his votes.

Sal and Justinian vote for you with Theo + Islam, no problem!

I still think Islam will spread to you.

 

[shyuhe]

I also had question. I know that, but I thought any tech traded would still go on the WFYABTA counter for civs on the upper half of the scoreboard.

Yes they still count as WFYABTA, even against the civ you're trading with. It's just that your bottom dwelling AI friend temporarily ignores any limitations on WFYABTA if you're both in the bottom half.

 

[Etheric]

Yes they still count as WFYABTA, even against the civ you're trading with. It's just that your bottom dwelling AI friend temporarily ignores any limitations on WFYABTA if you're both in the bottom half.

It is things like that I like about teh AI, it is not perfect and clearly can be abused if you know what you are doing, but they put a lot of effort in it and it shows.

 

[kossin]

kossin: what is that mod that you have that shows the percentage chance of how many HP your unit will have after combat? I haven't seen that before.

It's Advanced Combat Odds... it's included as part of BULL mod, which you can find in the BUG subforum. (or in EmperorFool's signature)

Nice round! Samurai are disgusting! Those are fully fortified, full health Macemen and those lose that horribly, sheesh!

Neat that my prediction that Izzy would wonderwhore/religion spam.

Nice lucky break previous with Lizzy going FR for some reason...????

Anyway, doesn't look like anyone's going for culture so you don't have to worry about that least, so no deadlines breathing down your neck!

Diplomatic may still be possible though - Islam spreading to you is still a fair shot with all those turns left.

Cap Joao but let him keep the UN. If he has Cristo Redentor in another city, so much the better.

Mehmed's a good unitspammer but not the best techer. If you can't get his vote via Vassalage + gifts, just cap him too for his votes.

Sal and Justinian vote for you with Theo + Islam, no problem!

I still think Islam will spread to you.

I remember using CRIII Maces but yea, Samurais are insane!
I hadn't realized this but Free Religion is Liz's favorite civic... so her building S.Paya meant a pretty good chance she would convert which ultimately meant her doom.

The problem I see with Islam spreading is all my cities have Buddhism and most have more than 1 so it might not happen. It hasn't so far at least

I'll have to check how many votes I need for voting myself UN Secretary General as capping Joao and Mehmed would certainly be faster than eliminating both.

 

[Shurdus]

Kossin, in keeping the war with Lizzy going you mentioned something about it not being vry likely she would cassalize to Izzy. How could you tell? Are there any hard rules for predicting who an AI will vassalise to?

Also nice warring as always. I still dislike Japan for the lack of economic traits but yikes, those Samurai are nothing short of stellar. In this shape they eat anything of their era for breakfast...

 

[kossin]

Kossin, in keeping the war with Lizzy going you mentioned something about it not being vry likely she would cassalize to Izzy. How could you tell? Are there any hard rules for predicting who an AI will vassalise to?

Also nice warring as always. I still dislike Japan for the lack of economic traits but yikes, those Samurai are nothing short of stellar. In this shape they eat anything of their era for breakfast...

1. Izzy never declared war on Elizabeth so she couldn't force her capitulation
2. Elizabeth will only voluntarily capitulate to a 3rd party if she's Friendly with them
3. Also (not the case here) an AI cannot bring another into a fight via peaceful capitulation if that would force a war between the master and the other AI that would normally not be possible (peace treaty, diplo status)

Land target also helps in this situation.

 

[AveiMil]

Can I ask what's going on with the tech trades?

I'm playing with PIG, which includes, among others, BTS Better AI and I can't ever remember a Civ allowing me to trade for instance Construction for Metal Casting considering that MC is more expensive than Construction. The same with Chemistry for Astro + Gold? How does this work? (I play Immortal). This perhaps a change introduced with Better AI? You also traded Aesthetics for Alphabhet (two equally expensive techs) with a Civ at Cautious, that never seem to work for me either.

Good read so far though, thanks!

 

[kossin]

Round 5

As I started the round, Joao kept hoarding them Wonders.

Spoiler :

The process of catching up involved beelining techs the AI didn't know and then trade for techs they had.

Spoiler :

I was focusing my on Merchants, as late game they pretty much are the most useful ones unless you want to rush wonders.

Spoiler :

Refrigeration turned out to be the best trading chip so far:

Spoiler :

That meant I only needed Flight+Industrialism to get the wars started. Factories+Shale Plants went up almost everywhere and I was massing Tanks, Bombers, Carriers, Fighters when, somewhat unexpectedly, this happened.

Spoiler :

All he did was pillage boats and bombard culture. An annoyance more than anything else.

What the heck... I bring Mehmed into the fight.

Spoiler :

I had planned on Capitulating Mehmed and then Joao to then vote myself UN Secretary general. But upon checking Diplo a bit, it turned out I didn't need to...

Spoiler :

What was promising to be a big showdown turned out to be pretty anti-climatic after all

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Post-game

Even though Islam didn't spread to me, the diplo situation was good enough, given that Joao was pretty hated and built the UN.

Spoiler :

[URL=http://img686.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0016.jpg]
[/URL]

Top 5 cities

Spoiler :

Demographics

Spoiler :

Power graph

Spoiler :

As you can see, it was only a question of time before I would overwhelm them anyway. While being the easy way out, it's also faster and less tedious on me

What was built...

Spoiler :

The army was setting up nicely.

Seeing as Mehmed ended up Friendly, I didn't even have to Capitulate him, going after Joao would have been sufficient, while letting him keep the UN (it was inland). I was merely planning to have some fun... taking 5 cities on the first turn of war while killing his SoD. It would have been short!

So this is it for Toku... a tough start because I didn't spam settlers but Tokugawa's traits helped during Medieval and Renaissance wars which I exited not too far behind the AI technologically. The land advantage at the end meant I could swarm the AI even if at a slight tech disadvantage (turned off slider for rush-buying).

See you tomorrow in the next game, as usual.

 

[kossin]

Can I ask what's going on with the tech trades?

I'm playing with PIG, which includes, among others, BTS Better AI and I can't ever remember a Civ allowing me to trade for instance Construction for Metal Casting considering that MC is more expensive than Construction. The same with Chemistry for Astro + Gold? How does this work? (I play Immortal). This perhaps a change introduced with Better AI? You also traded Aesthetics for Alphabhet (two equally expensive techs) with a Civ at Cautious, that never seem to work for me either.

Good read so far though, thanks!

You need to put some research into the target technology, which lowers the buying cost in the AI's eyes.
I had researched a few turns into Alphabet and Metal Casting before they would trade it, similar with Astronomy and, if you read the last set, you'll find I traded Refrigeration for Radio, Combustion and Medicine + 1400 gold.

Also, the vast majority of civs will trade techs at Cautious as long as enough people know it.

 

[AveiMil]

I see, yes, that is an option that I have used myself. But I at the same time those few turns partially researching the technology are precious and I've found no way to reliably determine how much of the tech I need to partially research before they allow me to trade it with them. If you partially research MC and then the AI suddenly gets it him/her self then I feel screwed.

Anyway, I must say I’m extremely impressed by your skill. I struggle, a lot, to do what you’re doing on Immortal. I am a bit puzzled as to how you manage to both research the necessary technologies and build a ~30 unit army by turn 124 with only four (culture pressed) cities. Amazing. How much did you whip? Obviously you probably whipped quite a bit, but at the same time you don’t want to whip away Cottages @ for instance Kyoto (?). Also, you did not even have Monarchy for additional happy cap at that stage making whipping a lot harder. Hmm…

Also, in round 3 you say:

2 turns later, as expected, she landed her stack next to Osaka. That really is not that impressive for a Deity AI.

As far as I understand the AI is not smarter at Deity than Noble?

Good job with the game so far and thanks for sharing!

 

[Eplekjekk]

Congratulations on another Deity game well played kossin. I have to admit that when I saw your starting position and the limited amount of land you would be able to settle before getting boxed in, I saw defeat as a clear possibility. But you managed to produce an army and wage war without falling too much behind in technology. To me the ability to produce an army quickly and take out the opponent before getting too much behind economically is one of the key elements that separate accomplished deity players from the rest of the pack.

Judging by your recent games it appears to me that you are beginning to be so comfortable on Deity level that unless you get declared on early or encounter a massive AI you will be able to win.

 

[Fleme]

By the looks of the start, this was the hardest of the deity games you've played so far. Amazing play once again. I'm still waiting for that loss

Deity is, from my own perspective, largely about playing your diplo right and you have nailed that spot on.

Congrats.

 

[kossin]

I see, yes, that is an option that I have used myself. But I at the same time those few turns partially researching the technology are precious and I've found no way to reliably determine how much of the tech I need to partially research before they allow me to trade it with them. If you partially research MC and then the AI suddenly gets it him/her self then I feel screwed.

Anyway, I must say I’m extremely impressed by your skill. I struggle, a lot, to do what you’re doing on Immortal. I am a bit puzzled as to how you manage to both research the necessary technologies and build a ~30 unit army by turn 124 with only four (culture pressed) cities. Amazing. How much did you whip? Obviously you probably whipped quite a bit, but at the same time you don’t want to whip away Cottages @ for instance Kyoto (?). Also, you did not even have Monarchy for additional happy cap at that stage making whipping a lot harder. Hmm…

Also, in round 3 you say:



As far as I understand the AI is not smarter at Deity than Noble?

Good job with the game so far and thanks for sharing!

I chopped everything in sight and did whip a bit harshly, even some cottages. The best time to whip however is when you only lose 1 turn of citizen, meaning the city grows back the next turn. Keeping cities in the 4~6 size range with a 8+ happy cap is usually enough for whipping before the 10 turns are up.
What I meant about Liz is her stack wasn't that large, not that she was stupid... well she was but...

Congratulations on another Deity game well played kossin. I have to admit that when I saw your starting position and the limited amount of land you would be able to settle before getting boxed in, I saw defeat as a clear possibility. But you managed to produce an army and wage war without falling too much behind in technology. To me the ability to produce an army quickly and take out the opponent before getting too much behind economically is one of the key elements that separate accomplished deity players from the rest of the pack.

Judging by your recent games it appears to me that you are beginning to be so comfortable on Deity level that unless you get declared on early or encounter a massive AI you will be able to win.

There's also the 3 criterias I add into my generated games: means to defend myself, not boxed in on turn 3 and no semi-isolation/isolation. A bunch of Fractal games would have me next to Shaka in semi-isolation with no copper... I'll let you finish the thought.

Additionally, there was a lot of religious strife this game so it slowed down AI teching enough for me to not fall too hopelessly behind.

As others have pointed out, if you have good skills on Immortal and can survive the early game on Deity, it's really not that different afterwards... just more units and faster teching. The cities you capture are always full on infrastructure so war is even more a big payout on Deity.

By the looks of the start, this was the hardest of the deity games you've played so far. Amazing play once again. I'm still waiting for that loss

Deity is, from my own perspective, largely about playing your diplo right and you have nailed that spot on.

Congrats.

I should post some of my offline games if you want to see losses
I lost one as Sitting Bull in semi-isolation with Lincoln recently... I had mass-whipped Cavalry and was planning on taking over management when he suddenly got insta-Infantry (lacking RP 2 turns prior). It wasn't pretty!

I agree with your thoughts on Deity: if you can avoid an early DoW and manage to hide between some AIs, it usually gives you enough time to mount an assault on your own which usually puts you in a winning position.

 

[Shurdus]

Amazing once again. You may well be on your way to becoming one of the best players around. Amazing to see you pull off the game from a losing position, or at least from a very very poor position where it would be no shame to toss in the towel. Glad to see you do not do this. Amazing, keep them coming!

 

[Grashopa]

Heres the axe rush.. as I said after she picked up the oracle I planned to attack after the shrine was in - I really just want the shrine. Aggressive is ridiculously good. I probably could have taken out Izzy here if I had the time. C1CR2 axemen are great and 1 spear is enough to keep the chariots in the cities.

700 BC

Spoiler :

So the plan is to upgrade those guys to Samurai.. I pick up the great library to help with the culture pressure in Barcelona, I would also put the NE here and pick up 5 GSs here through 1000 AD. Kyoto the capital picks up the HE and starts spamming 5 XP catapults thanks to the settled GG (forgot to even build a library here) ... I steal code of laws from Izzy which cost 360 EP (-25% due to having the shrine) then bulb philosophy for trades. Joao and Elizabeth are both teching fast and are willing to trade.

I trade for iron as you can see in the screenshot, but don't worry I close borders with Liz the next turn which cuts off the trade after I upgraded to samurais. From there its C1CR3 samurais with 95+% odds after bombarding and sacrificing a catapult.

~1100 AD

Spoiler :

 

[ABigCivFan]

Wow, great game. Once again, siege saved the day! Also good judgement on diplo/war helped a lot. If Izzy DOWs you when you were fighting Liz it would be trouble. Now some one makes a tough map for Kossin

 

[Riot]

Wow, great game. Once again, siege saved the day! Also good judgement on diplo/war helped a lot. If Izzy DOWs you when you were fighting Liz it would be trouble. Now some one makes a tough map for Kossin

He could play the Maya map again. 1 bad roll and MM gets an Artist instead of a Prophet.

 

[Grashopa]

Kossin -

You could have waited for the samurai as I did. By the time of the attack our research was basically the same with yours marred by the whipping while I used only the HE in the capital for units. If I had grabbed only 2 cities with the axe rush the game would still have went the same for me as long as I was able to get the GG and unlock the HE. I think any aggressive leader would have been fine with macemen and catapults from either of our two starts. Once the AI SoD is gone even on deity siege and CR make short work of things. I have always been afraid of castles, but with 5 XP bombard catapults its just an extra turn of bombarding before attacking so really only rifles stop you.

 

[DampRain]

Bravo! Well done .

You made it look too easy! Was good reading, and look forward to reading more of yours.

 

[cripp7]

Bravo! Well done .

You made it look too easy! Was good reading, and look forward to reading more of yours.

Yes it looks too easy, I try it and get spanked!