Dr kossin #6

[dualmaster]

Yeah your space looks pretty limited so I would look to start expanding via conquest. With your gems you can quickly get to HBR then head to construction. You can probably do a lot of damage with just HAs and then later add in phants/cats.

HC is probably a good target. It looks like he is on the southern point/peninsula of your continent - taking him out would secure your rear. Then maybe head for the Dutch? Either way it looks like you definitely need some military expansion.

 

[slobberinbear]

I would chariot rush Huayna. You need to eliminate one of your neighbors and he appears to be the easiest target.

 

[kossin]

Grante HC only has Archers right now, but for all I know he might get his hands on Iron pretty soon, it is 1360BC after all. I need to scout his land and then I'll be fixed on the best way to procede. If he lacks metals, then I'll HA rush him. If he has Iron but hooks it up late HA rush. If I start seeing a lot of spears -> Construction. With Elephants I can also take out an extra neighbor, WvO doesn't look too big either right now so it's a possibility.

 

[Yamps]

Peter went into WHEOOHRN mode just recently. I'm not feeling too good about that since hidden modifiers have him at Pleased with everyone but me. I'm guessing he's after a barb city as it's quite early but you never know.

No wheeohrn for barb cities...he might attack somebody he's pleased at, but maybe he's annoyed at sb closer to him. Him being Cautious at you and Pleased at others you know is definitely a bad sign, sending some scout to check where he is is quite important.

Also, aren't you worried about wfybta with that Mysticism+Hunting for Alphabet trade?

 

[kossin]

Round 2

I started with some trades to get the most out of Alphabet. I couldn't get Sailing so I researched it myself.

Unfortunately HC had iron so I decided to get Currency first.

And on the following turn...

Thanks a bunch Peter, you're welcome! He would go out of war-mode soon after. It also allowed me to beg for 2 gpt which he still hasn't cancelled.

Once Athens grew to size 6, I started running 2 scientists which soon enough would make a GScientist ->Academy

It slowed my settler by a few turns unfortunately, meaning I lost this spot to Sal after having sent my settler halfway there:

So I turned him around to settle on the west coast on a powerful fish+double sugar+Banana site I had just found... I considered reloading as I moved the settler incorrectly.

1 turn too late I instead settled a bit south to grab bananas+horses, giving me 5 cities. After Currency I researched HBR and built several workers - I currently have 8 which should be enough.

After HC came demanding for Alphabet, which I refused, he went in war-mode. This could be quite good as I could spare myself the Diplo hit. Since he was researching Alphabet, I traded it for Masonry+gold.

HBR came in so I teched Construction which was not up for trades yet.

I'd like to keep my hands on HBR as Willem also has Ivory. These 2 trades were available so I took them:

I needed Mathematics and prefered trading Currency to Saladin rather than Willem. This opened up Construction which I got soon thanks to double gems.

I stopped there. I have not yet revolted to HR as there was no need to do so. Moreover, Odeons will help substantially with the happy cap.

Tech overview

Demographics with slider on 100%

Diplo - HC is liked by Peter and Saladin, so I'd rather he DoW me, wipe his stack and then kill him with Elephants+Catapults.

He has a very nice Capital!

I set research on CoL as the religion is still available and it's on the way to Civil Service.

I should be ready for a war somewhere in 100~200AD. My only worry is watching my back. Saladin won't declare at Pleased, but WvO is a backstabber. Peter is kinda far for the moment so I should be okay on that front. I didn't get time to put down any cottages yet as farms/mines were more important and jungle land takes a while to clear. I'll also be whipping for a while so they would be counter-productive except in Athens maybe.

 

[kossin]

No wheeohrn for barb cities...he might attack somebody he's pleased at, but maybe he's annoyed at sb closer to him. Him being Cautious at you and Pleased at others you know is definitely a bad sign, sending some scout to check where he is is quite important.

Also, aren't you worried about wfybta with that Mysticism+Hunting for Alphabet trade?

I see...

I'm not too afraid of the trade limit right now. Peter and Willem are good traders and I can probably buddy Saladin through religion.

 

[UWHabs]

Well, maybe not as easy a win as we had originally predicted with the cap, but should be excited. I'm guessing you're going to be warring a bit for the foreseeable future, as I wouldn't be surprised if HC declares on you, and then Peter comes in for the dogpile.

 

[Fleme]

HC is almost certainly coming for you. Will be interesting to see how big of a dogpile he brings in with him.

 

[Solon70]

I think I must be the only person who refuses to beg from the AI just to get out of wheeohrn. I don't know that I'd call it an exploit, but it just feels like way too cheesy a mechanic.

 

[CarlH]

I think I must be the only person who refuses to beg from the AI just to get out of wheeohrn. I don't know that I'd call it an exploit, but it just feels like way too cheesy a mechanic.

I have recently taken up this tactic and it can be vital. I would definately not rule it out.

 

[Udey1]

I think I must be the only person who refuses to beg from the AI just to get out of wheeohrn. I don't know that I'd call it an exploit, but it just feels like way too cheesy a mechanic.

I don't either, you aren't alone. It can cause some sticky situations if you fail to see the stack comming. Therefore I usually have a good spy network to find them.

 

[kossin]

Unfortunately I don't think I can beg from any AI right now unless I gift them something to get them to Pleased. If the reference was to Peter, then he's the one that 'begged', so I obliged.

 

[kossin]

Round 3a

Traded some techs for gold to keep the slider at 100%.
Confucianism was founded on the second turn by a distant civilization. Both these trades I couldn't get maximum value as they were researching it:

Then HC showed up with his 'stack' at my doorsteps:

hehehe

Inevitably, next turn:

And as predicted by UWHabs, HC bribed his buddy with Compass:

Now, I could have gifted techs to Peter to get him to Pleased, but decided not to (which is probably a mistake as it would have been cheap) seeing as he lacks the important military techs:

He might get catapults in the near future but given distance by trading Compass, still I don't think I should worry too much.

Saladin cannot be bribed to war unless he is at Annoyed with the targeted civilization. Nevertheless, I gifted CoL to him to avoid a dogpile war.

My only worry right now is Willem. He does love dogpile wars and he does have a smallish stack in Middleburg.

So it turns out, with my decisions and the land around the capital, that this game isn't that easy after all. The tech rate is quite good, I'll have a Great Scientist in 2 turns which I could use to bulb Philosophy.

So, how do I deal with Willem? Do I gift him a few techs to get him to Pleased to avoid a bribe possibility?

In my opinion, I'll gift CoL to Willem and hope that gets him to Pleased. In 2 turns, I bulb philosophy and try to bribe Willem against Peter since he is Cautious at him. Then I could focus on HC without too much worries about my back. Peter can get through me via Saladin I think, but there's nothing I can do about it except scout.

 

[Yamps]

Sounds like fun!

Will needs to be Friendly to be bribed to attack sb, I'm guessing he's not with HC and Peter. This also means that you won't be able to do it yourself either, although Pleased could be useful anyway to reduce the chances that he'll join against you on his own without bribing.

 

[kossin]

Good point, I did indeed misread the chart (bribe is greater than while Target is smaller or equal).
Bulbing Philosophy is still a strong move for trade purposes and to divert others from the Liberalism race I suppose.

 

[kossin]

Round 3b
As correctly pointed out, Willem cannot be bribed unless he is at Friendly. Still, I didn't want to give him too many reasons to backstab me so I gifted him techs until he was Pleased.

My great Scientist was born. I finally decided against bulbing and settled him. Since I'd be at war for a while, the added beakers were welcome.

This is Peter's stack... 2 War Elephants dealt with it. He never sent anything more.

On 1AD, Civil Service was completed. I revolted to Hereditary Rule+Bureaucracy (only 1 turn).

The other reason is Hereditary Rule is this guy's favorite civic.

After some futile bombardment, HC suicided his stack against Athens.

Come 100AD, I felt a little rash and decided to attack with 14 units.

Peter had enough and I had to pay him 50 gold to get out of the war.

Since HC had researched Civil Service, I traded it around.

I went straight to Cuzco - it would hurt HC the most. His other city was heavily garrisoned and it was crappy so I let it be for now (I sent a fake stack there so he reinforced it a lot). After 2 turns of bombarding, despite bad odds, I sent everything at him:

I lost all but 1 of my catapults as well as 1 War Elephant but in the end, the spoils go to the victorious!

I've got 7 catapults in reinforcement on their way.

I think I'll let the crappy city remain there for a bit more, hopefully he'll bring some units out of it. My next goal would be Tiwanaku, it is size 10, has corn, 2 spices, plenty of grassland and is putting a lot of culture pressure on Cuzco.

I'm about to generate another GS which I'll use to partially bulb Education (yay fast universities!) and also just got a Great General, which I'll settle in Corinth which looks like my best production city.

Techwise, I'm on parity with what counts and I might pull ahead a bit in the near future.

Diplo is looking better as well.

I couldn't scout HC's land very well but trading maps should give me the big picture. The culture shape is enough of a hint already though.

I've still got a forced Peace Treaty with Peter for 6 turns and HC could bribe him again then. OTOH, I now have a buddhist city in Cuzco and can switch to Buddhism to befriend Peter. I'd rather wait after a few more HC cities are gone first though.

My workers have been busy chopping, rebuilding the pig pasture HC kept destroying and making mines so there's still a lot of unimproved land but the whip makes certain it isn't worked. I've got several Bananas that need improving and also grassland to irrigate.

 

[Berkobob]

This start looked interesting to me so I will post a shadow but in fairness to the OP, I will remain approximately 1 round behind.

Without revealing too much when I met 2 ais inside the first ~6 turns I decided to go for a rush with the best available units, playing the map and the position rather than the leader - my posts will reflect the success or otherwise of that strategy.

Probably should add that based upon OP's first five posted games I am probably a worse player but hopefully not enough to affect a comparison between the two situations.

To 775 BC (no pics):

Spoiler :

Found HC to the south, Willem to the NW and Saladin to the East. Suspect Russia is up to the NE based on his scout approach.

Worker first.

Agri -> Mining -> AH -> Wheel -> Hunting -> Archery -> HBR -> Writing. Turned off slider after HBR then put it back on to time Writing with gaining control of one or two of HC's southern cities.

Built Sparta near HC, used food resource from Athens to spam chariots and the odd HA. Whipped/chopped barracks & stables to get access to Flanking II HA's. Athens spammed Chariots, then HA's, mixing in a few Chariots. Built 3 or 4 workers too.

Plan was to use HA's to take down tougher defenders or weaken them and use chariots to mop up. Figured I would save on hammers that way.

IMO the rush fails if I build Sparta anywhere else, saving those turns was needed as HC's capital was on a hill and had 60% defense.

Dow'd around 1100-1200 BC, lost first battle at 90% odds, had luck on the capital winning 2 battles around 30-35% odds (still would have capped next turn but with more losses) - kept the capital and one other city, razed his last cities to save on maintenance. That land will be available later on.

Got a holy city but no shrine. Also captured Stonehenge.

So at 775 BC I have four cities, Writing 1 turn away and about 400 in the kitty. Have a GG unmoved in Athens. Thinking of attaching and making a medic III chariot or HA.

Given my army and money situation I plan to research pottery then turn slider off, spam units from 3 cities and take out either Willem or Saladin. I think Willem is the best target as Saladin's archers have high Drill promos. I will start building infrastructure in Athens and HC's capital once the war is under control.

Made some mistakes, got writing before pottery and paid an extra 20%, rationale was to get a library chopped/whipped a few turns earlier and run specialists so i could set my slider to 0%.

Also didnt micro as well as I could have in terms of whips but still OK i guess. Probably a few suboptimal tile assignments in the save and throughout the round.

Save is attached below.

 

[kossin]

Round 4

I decided to follow the path I had laid out previously seeing as HC can't really get to me.

Peter came-a-begging again, and I agreed, getting him to Pleased.

Since Paper was out, I traded it for Sal's map and Aesthetics... I know not the best of trades but I'd rather get that than nothing.

Once Machinery was known, Gilgamesh still lacked common techs so I got it in this trade, which also got me his map of the other continent - great trade routes.

A scouting workboat might have given this to me some turns before. I got distracted by the war I guess

On the same turn my Great Scientist appeared so I bulbed Education.

Which I finished 2 turns later.

On the same turn Tiwanaku fell.

It's not a super-city like Cuzco but it gives me 7 now. With HC's 2 southeastern remaining cities and a resettled wine city (unless I find something I realllly don't want to raze there), I'll have 10 cities.

I need to raze his iron now that he's close to Engineering, I don't want to face pikes. Prior to this, I didn't mind him wasting hammers on non-longbow units as they are easier to kill in a city.

Here's the rest of the world. Willem turned out to be quite big with all that land north of him. On the plus side, a lot of it is desert and brownish.

I have some unhealthiness as HC keeps blowing up my corn/pig in Athens

Tech situation - I haven't though about the techpath going on from here. Given that I'll have Marble from Cuzco, Nationalism for the Taj might be in the cards.

As for a Victory Condition, I also haven't thought of what seems likely. I'll have a nice patch of land after I wipe HC off the map so teching should be ok.

Diplomacy looks like an option once again, but I may opt for something different for a change, it might be less anti-climatic for the readers and showcase some modern war.

I may or may not get in another round today, it'll depend on my work load.

 

[UWHabs]

Triple-fish/sheep city? Yum... That and Cuzco will give you good options for a GP-farm and Globe draft city

Finish taking out HC, then decide where to go. You'll need some time to recover, but once you do, you should catch up to everyone else fairly quickly overall, and then space or a modern conquest makes sense. Culture wouldn't be too bad, but it's hard to do with so many neighbours.

Also keep in mind Willem is a backstabber, so you need him at friendly to know he can't attack you, so I'd be careful and expect a war (especially if you go Buddhist).

 

[kossin]

Willem doesn't value religion that much, I think it's only +/-2 with him. I might just stay out of religions and switch to FR with Liberalism.