MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Sacrificing a unit at a Demons Altar requires the unit have at least a Level of 2.
(It gives 10 +level^2 research.)
(It gives 10 +level^2 research.)
Dragon Golems/Life III absurdly powerful?
- Thread starter Pyr0mancer
- Start date
Pyr0mancer
Prince
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Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Anyway, is it possible to make Graft Flesh castable only once per unit? Doing so would prevent the exploitation of Resurrection + Graft Flesh.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
I don't mean thematically/conceptually, I mean for the program to recognize that it was created but never killed, rather eliminated another way without being eligible for resurection. But this is the only case where it is an issue, so there could be checks other ways.
Really, though, I think it falls under the category of, by the time you're doing that, you probably could have just won, so go ahead and have fun.
I agree, if you've got your dragon and a bunch of life III units (archmages, probably) to sacrifice just so you can make an even cooler unit, the exact details of how you're going to win that game are just that... details. You should pretty much be able to walk over anything that's still alive (or undead or whatever) at the time, so the dragon golem is just eye candy
By the way, the best defense I know against those uber units is to just spawn a lot of weak units as fast as you can, and keep them swamped. Particularly if they don't have blitz, that works like a charm.
westamastaflash
Lord Commander
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If you've got a unit at that power level you've probably already won the game...
Randolph
Warlord
When did you stop having to sacrifice a life mana node to cast resurect? It seems like there would be plenty of other reasons why a costless resurection spell is overowered.
Pyr0mancer
Prince
- Joined
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I believe so, since I don't recall ever getting an Elven Baron Duin Halfmorn. No Vampire werewolf dragon flesh golems for you
And yes, having both a dragon and archmages would pretty much mean you've won, but the problem is Life III is still overpowered due to being costless. I personally still think there should be at least a loss of the Life III promotion, to prevent ridiculous Resurrecting. An interesting alternative might be to make it only castable in the city with the Shrine of the Champion, and destroy the Shrine when cast. This would prevent most of the abuse, as well as taking care of the issue of being able to build the shrine then getting your hero back.
Blackmantle
King
Agree with Nikis-Knights last take on the matter here.
And Resurection hardly seems overpowered compared to other Archmage-Level spells (which whould boil down to: Life is an automatic pick that devalues basically all other archmage-level spells.) Compare most heroes with Tier 3 Summons for example and you'll see that its average to good at best.
The new version at least makes it an viable option to use (before it was a nonoption exept for 2 or 3 civs. And those civs are not exactely the strongest so the stronger power-boost for them doesn't hurt. Especially Elhoim which get clearly the biggest boost out of that change / Synergy with the new resurection.). Not everything that is good is overpowered.
Don't forget that the only spell that was really overpowered so much that the team cut it was Meteor Swarm (other spells were cut for simplification not for beeing overpowered). So if you are about to call something overpowered consider pausing and comparing something to other features especially in its own field.
Even while playing Kuoritates or Sheaim its hard enough to reach and build the dragons (most games end before that point is reached for those civs) and Flesh Golem is another Archmage Spell which is arguably stronger than even the new resurection (and a very fun one too even if that spell creates some real if rather minor issues. At least if compared to Meteor Swarm).
That may not change that Dragon-Golems boosted up via Life 3 are indeed absurdly powerful. But its a good thing given the time they appear.
Something to break up / end the very late game with a big bang seems very much allright.
Comparing things isolated of their cost and time to reach doesn't yield any real insight into balancing (which is done at macro-level in FFH2 anyways as opposed to feature level balancing.).
Should someone come up with a really nasty combination that really brakes the balance of Magic Tier 1-3 (and Tier 1 and 2 of life-magic are not the best of all as well) / civ-balance even more than Corlindale + Life 3 there are still many options other than the absurdly high cost of sacrificing a node (having to give up the Life 3-Promotion seems much more resonable if a cost is necessary at all. As seen in Mind 3 where this limitation does work without rendereing the spell to costly as the old limitation did.).
Since the introduction of Metamagic Nodes have become even much more valuable than before. Another reason why sacrificing a node to be able to cast a spell seems unreasonable.
The word overpowered is overused alot in regards to many features here imo.
And Resurection hardly seems overpowered compared to other Archmage-Level spells (which whould boil down to: Life is an automatic pick that devalues basically all other archmage-level spells.) Compare most heroes with Tier 3 Summons for example and you'll see that its average to good at best.
The new version at least makes it an viable option to use (before it was a nonoption exept for 2 or 3 civs. And those civs are not exactely the strongest so the stronger power-boost for them doesn't hurt. Especially Elhoim which get clearly the biggest boost out of that change / Synergy with the new resurection.). Not everything that is good is overpowered.
Don't forget that the only spell that was really overpowered so much that the team cut it was Meteor Swarm (other spells were cut for simplification not for beeing overpowered). So if you are about to call something overpowered consider pausing and comparing something to other features especially in its own field.
Even while playing Kuoritates or Sheaim its hard enough to reach and build the dragons (most games end before that point is reached for those civs) and Flesh Golem is another Archmage Spell which is arguably stronger than even the new resurection (and a very fun one too even if that spell creates some real if rather minor issues. At least if compared to Meteor Swarm).
That may not change that Dragon-Golems boosted up via Life 3 are indeed absurdly powerful. But its a good thing given the time they appear.
Something to break up / end the very late game with a big bang seems very much allright.
Comparing things isolated of their cost and time to reach doesn't yield any real insight into balancing (which is done at macro-level in FFH2 anyways as opposed to feature level balancing.).
Should someone come up with a really nasty combination that really brakes the balance of Magic Tier 1-3 (and Tier 1 and 2 of life-magic are not the best of all as well) / civ-balance even more than Corlindale + Life 3 there are still many options other than the absurdly high cost of sacrificing a node (having to give up the Life 3-Promotion seems much more resonable if a cost is necessary at all. As seen in Mind 3 where this limitation does work without rendereing the spell to costly as the old limitation did.).
Since the introduction of Metamagic Nodes have become even much more valuable than before. Another reason why sacrificing a node to be able to cast a spell seems unreasonable.
The word overpowered is overused alot in regards to many features here imo.
Randolph
Warlord
I think I must be missing something. Can you really now just cast Resurrection and get your civ's hero back (with old xp?) with no cost to the caster? Do you get to keep the Shrine of the Champion? Does this mean you could keep casting Peace with Corindale? That seems notably better than a summon spell, particularly considering that you really need a bunch of other promotions to make summons effective (combats, extends).
Obviously I haven't played with it so I'm not going to say it's "overpowered," I'm just supprised.
That seems a bit sophomoric, if you’re talking about balance the term "overpowered" could very reasonably be used quite frequently. Now maybe it's a goofy term, but that's just the internet for you.
Blackmantle
King
No, its a problem here because people refer to things beeing overpowered on feature level rather often (if you look at it from that angle many things in FFH2 are blatantly overpowered.).
But Kael (and if i remember correctly other members of the team as well) more than once clearly stated that FFH 2 is mainly designed to be fun first and foremost as well as designed with an high emphasis on replayability + that balance is to be done on macro / civ or field level. Not on Feature level. So calling something overpowered without refering to the broader context (like beaker cost / time in the game and alternatives you have to pass on to use a given feature) is misleading and rather valuless to help balance FFH 2 and make it more fun.
And since the team has to put work into it calling things overpowered with impunity at worst will hamper the games development and make it less fun.
Like it has arguably been the case with slave-trade from Undercouncil (where arguably a higher cost for buying and selling might have been another option instead of making slave-rushing weaker) and to a much larger degree with the Grigori civ (which has been hit with multiple serious nerfs and powerups for their nonoptions at the same time which has made Grigori a rather dull and streamlined civ. Not necessarily poor in raw power but much less fun.)
Which are 2 good examples where feature-level balancing has gone a bit / quite considerably over the top due to extreme lobbying of feature-level-balancing enthusiasts which the team has heeded.
Many people here seem to get the word "balance" wrong in the context of FFH 2, with those 2 non-compatible approaches to balance possible. (one more suitable for multiplayer / e-sports oriented games, the other one for well rounded and fun single player games with a high emphasis on replayability)
And im rather sure you can keep the shrine. Don't see any problem with that (sure this point is arguable. But at least lends more power to very early heroes and makes it an option for civs with a very useful hero which is not necessarily bad imo.
I also can't really spot any problems with it flavorwise / backgroundwise. The hero has to die at least once for you to build it after all.).
I belive the hero is resurected at 0 XP though. (which could be more powerful or less. Depending on the situation / hero / civ. But i don't know that one for sure. Perhaps someone will come along here who knows for sure.)
Yes especially for the Elhoim which also have very easy / early acess to Life 3 thanks to devouts
(and maybe other civ heroes that start with equipment if above assumption of them starting fresh is right.) is stronger than a summon if viewed isolated.
But if you consider that it works only for the Elhoim (which are a rather weak civ on its own and could well use to have spiritual back for making them more rounded as well as more fitting flavorwise) with just that focus of having peace and keeping AC down.
That said its not impossible that with one civ / wild combination i haven't considered its indeed overpowered even from my point of view.
Still even if that whould be the case, sacrificing a node seems to steep of a cost anyways. By far. There are enough other options.
But Kael (and if i remember correctly other members of the team as well) more than once clearly stated that FFH 2 is mainly designed to be fun first and foremost as well as designed with an high emphasis on replayability + that balance is to be done on macro / civ or field level. Not on Feature level. So calling something overpowered without refering to the broader context (like beaker cost / time in the game and alternatives you have to pass on to use a given feature) is misleading and rather valuless to help balance FFH 2 and make it more fun.
And since the team has to put work into it calling things overpowered with impunity at worst will hamper the games development and make it less fun.
Like it has arguably been the case with slave-trade from Undercouncil (where arguably a higher cost for buying and selling might have been another option instead of making slave-rushing weaker) and to a much larger degree with the Grigori civ (which has been hit with multiple serious nerfs and powerups for their nonoptions at the same time which has made Grigori a rather dull and streamlined civ. Not necessarily poor in raw power but much less fun.)
Which are 2 good examples where feature-level balancing has gone a bit / quite considerably over the top due to extreme lobbying of feature-level-balancing enthusiasts which the team has heeded.
Many people here seem to get the word "balance" wrong in the context of FFH 2, with those 2 non-compatible approaches to balance possible. (one more suitable for multiplayer / e-sports oriented games, the other one for well rounded and fun single player games with a high emphasis on replayability)
And im rather sure you can keep the shrine. Don't see any problem with that (sure this point is arguable. But at least lends more power to very early heroes and makes it an option for civs with a very useful hero which is not necessarily bad imo.
I also can't really spot any problems with it flavorwise / backgroundwise. The hero has to die at least once for you to build it after all.).
I belive the hero is resurected at 0 XP though. (which could be more powerful or less. Depending on the situation / hero / civ. But i don't know that one for sure. Perhaps someone will come along here who knows for sure.)
Yes especially for the Elhoim which also have very easy / early acess to Life 3 thanks to devouts
(and maybe other civ heroes that start with equipment if above assumption of them starting fresh is right.) is stronger than a summon if viewed isolated.
But if you consider that it works only for the Elhoim (which are a rather weak civ on its own and could well use to have spiritual back for making them more rounded as well as more fitting flavorwise) with just that focus of having peace and keeping AC down.
That said its not impossible that with one civ / wild combination i haven't considered its indeed overpowered even from my point of view.
Still even if that whould be the case, sacrificing a node seems to steep of a cost anyways. By far. There are enough other options.
xienwolf
Deity
I kinda like the Peace-Spam Corlindale idea
An alternative to destruction of the Shrine of the Champion to cast the spell is to leave it as requiring a Life Node to cast it, and have it reset the node instead of destroying it. Then you have to take the time to rebuild your life node before you can Resurrect again. A complete non-issue unless you are attempting to abuse the spell. And to cast it more than once in a single turn you would need to have multiple Archmages stationed on seperate Life Nodes, which by default means spaced quite a distance apart.
An alternative to destruction of the Shrine of the Champion to cast the spell is to leave it as requiring a Life Node to cast it, and have it reset the node instead of destroying it. Then you have to take the time to rebuild your life node before you can Resurrect again. A complete non-issue unless you are attempting to abuse the spell. And to cast it more than once in a single turn you would need to have multiple Archmages stationed on seperate Life Nodes, which by default means spaced quite a distance apart.
Pyr0mancer
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2008
- Messages
- 542
You do keep the Shrine, which is somewhat broken IMO. I feel like it should be either you get the Shrine or the Hero, not both.
You get the Hero back with no XP and only the default promotions (ones mentioned in the Civilopedia), so you'd lose out on things like Stigmata.
As for balance... Life III right now is far more powerful than any other tier 3 spell, with the possible exceptions of Domination, Wonder, and Graft Flesh. Domination can be lost or failed, while Wonder is too random for consistent usage. Life III right now is basically a permanent summon without the turn of immobility, with the added benefit of allowing you to get the Shrine. Oh and also, you can keep mutating your hero until you get a good one. Graft Flesh... yeah, Flesh Golems are overpowered if you take the time to build them up.
You get the Hero back with no XP and only the default promotions (ones mentioned in the Civilopedia), so you'd lose out on things like Stigmata.
As for balance... Life III right now is far more powerful than any other tier 3 spell, with the possible exceptions of Domination, Wonder, and Graft Flesh. Domination can be lost or failed, while Wonder is too random for consistent usage. Life III right now is basically a permanent summon without the turn of immobility, with the added benefit of allowing you to get the Shrine. Oh and also, you can keep mutating your hero until you get a good one. Graft Flesh... yeah, Flesh Golems are overpowered if you take the time to build them up.
Blackmantle
King
For all civs? I have to disagree.
Do you really think that safely having Gilden, Loki and Rantine (just to name some examples) are more powerful than summoning elementals with spellstaff and Empower 5 (another hot Tier 3 Sphere since the overhaul of how nodes work) or the likes? And it never gets to be more than one at a time all advantages aside.
Id rather have 2 Empower 5, Mobiltiy 2,
Air, Fire or Water Elementals over an early-midgame hero any day of the week.
Imo what you say is only right for a handful of civs at best. (with solid mid-lategame heroes. With Dragons being to late for me to agree with your statement regarding to their civs.)
Its a solid spell. Given. But overall im sure its not the best and you have to live with rather weak / situational tier 1 and 2 spells as opposed to many other spheres.
If its not valid for all civs you have to look at overall civ-balance if those civs are to powerful or rather weak and deserving of this boost.
And it improves the importance of civ heroes as opposed to other ones which might also be a good thing.
Also you should definately add Death 3 to the list imo. One Civ Hero is not worth 4 Liches for anyone i can think of save Elhoim and Civ-Heroes starting with equipment (perhaps) and you get Wraiths in addition to it without any further cost or limitation (Wraith themselves beeing a very solid summon.).
Haven't got down to cast Wonder yet, due to my comp beeing down sadly. Nice to hear it could be a good spell. Had fears that chaos whould suffer quite considerably from that change because Kyleen really had some serious use for Pit-Beasts.
And where is written that the choice is to be hero or shrine? Can't see any nonartificial reason of non-micro-balancing.
Flavorwise it makes sense that the people still revere the site of the heroic sacrifice of their savior.
(All the more so if he is there in flesh and blood to tell the story first-hand. And even with beeing resurected, beeing killed in a violent way still hurts for sure... So its still heroic.)
Also its a high-magic-background and resurection is even in the leader-pedia (Mahla) so nothing completely unheard of let alone a reason to raze the shrine of the champion.
@ Xienwolf: Resetting a Life-Node whould be another very solid option imo to limit the Spell somewhat. Greath idea. Still not sure if thats needed.
Disagree on the shrine as explained above.
Do you really think that safely having Gilden, Loki and Rantine (just to name some examples) are more powerful than summoning elementals with spellstaff and Empower 5 (another hot Tier 3 Sphere since the overhaul of how nodes work) or the likes? And it never gets to be more than one at a time all advantages aside.
Id rather have 2 Empower 5, Mobiltiy 2,
Air, Fire or Water Elementals over an early-midgame hero any day of the week.
Imo what you say is only right for a handful of civs at best. (with solid mid-lategame heroes. With Dragons being to late for me to agree with your statement regarding to their civs.)
Its a solid spell. Given. But overall im sure its not the best and you have to live with rather weak / situational tier 1 and 2 spells as opposed to many other spheres.
If its not valid for all civs you have to look at overall civ-balance if those civs are to powerful or rather weak and deserving of this boost.
And it improves the importance of civ heroes as opposed to other ones which might also be a good thing.
Also you should definately add Death 3 to the list imo. One Civ Hero is not worth 4 Liches for anyone i can think of save Elhoim and Civ-Heroes starting with equipment (perhaps) and you get Wraiths in addition to it without any further cost or limitation (Wraith themselves beeing a very solid summon.).
Haven't got down to cast Wonder yet, due to my comp beeing down sadly. Nice to hear it could be a good spell. Had fears that chaos whould suffer quite considerably from that change because Kyleen really had some serious use for Pit-Beasts.
And where is written that the choice is to be hero or shrine? Can't see any nonartificial reason of non-micro-balancing.
Flavorwise it makes sense that the people still revere the site of the heroic sacrifice of their savior.
(All the more so if he is there in flesh and blood to tell the story first-hand.
And even with beeing resurected, beeing killed in a violent way still hurts for sure... So its still heroic.)Also its a high-magic-background and resurection is even in the leader-pedia (Mahla) so nothing completely unheard of let alone a reason to raze the shrine of the champion.
@ Xienwolf: Resetting a Life-Node whould be another very solid option imo to limit the Spell somewhat. Greath idea.
Still not sure if thats needed. Disagree on the shrine as explained above.
Randolph
Warlord
Blackmantle,
I may regret asking this, but what do you think the “macro-balancing” analysis is here vs. “micro-balancing”? I understand this principle when it comes to, say, religions or civilizations: you don’t balance civilization heroes against each other, but rather civ/religions as a whole. This makes sense because the strategic choice is between civilizations or religions rather than heroes.
There are a number of strategic choices regarding a level three spell: what research path to pursue, what civ and religion to pick (palace/shrine mana, arcane heroes), what mana nodes to build, etc. Assuming that one of the primary choices is which promotion path to take, it would seem that at least some balancing needs to take place between individual spell paths (which is apparently what you consider "micro balance," and inappropriate to consider).
I could go on determining what needs to be balanced against what, but my point is that I don’t think you can dismiss concerns about individual features by saying “FFH2 is balanced on a macro, not micro level,” because there are both macro and micro strategic choices that need to be preserved through balancing. I think when Kael says that he balances on a macro level he means something rather different than "small choices don’t need to be balanced against each other so long as the primary strategic options are balanced." I think he means that the full implication of a feature/choice throughout the game need to be considered, therefore "mirco-balancing" is in fact a necesary aspect of balance, it just isn't the end of the conversation. A good strategic experience involves making choices between “balanced” options at many levels.
I may regret asking this, but what do you think the “macro-balancing” analysis is here vs. “micro-balancing”? I understand this principle when it comes to, say, religions or civilizations: you don’t balance civilization heroes against each other, but rather civ/religions as a whole. This makes sense because the strategic choice is between civilizations or religions rather than heroes.
There are a number of strategic choices regarding a level three spell: what research path to pursue, what civ and religion to pick (palace/shrine mana, arcane heroes), what mana nodes to build, etc. Assuming that one of the primary choices is which promotion path to take, it would seem that at least some balancing needs to take place between individual spell paths (which is apparently what you consider "micro balance," and inappropriate to consider).
I could go on determining what needs to be balanced against what, but my point is that I don’t think you can dismiss concerns about individual features by saying “FFH2 is balanced on a macro, not micro level,” because there are both macro and micro strategic choices that need to be preserved through balancing. I think when Kael says that he balances on a macro level he means something rather different than "small choices don’t need to be balanced against each other so long as the primary strategic options are balanced." I think he means that the full implication of a feature/choice throughout the game need to be considered, therefore "mirco-balancing" is in fact a necesary aspect of balance, it just isn't the end of the conversation. A good strategic experience involves making choices between “balanced” options at many levels.
cabbagemeister
Please wait...
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2008
- Messages
- 517
This is a very interesting discussion. I haven't gotten a chance to use resurrect so I don't know some of the fine details that might affect how OP certain wacky strats might become. For instance, could you resurrect Rauthus or Hyborem with their equipment intact AFTER they die and someone else has taken the equipment? If so, and if you could reliably recapture the equipment after the hero dies, you could theoretically equip half your army with Gelas.
Also, if you resurrect Hyborem or Basium, does your civ get its traits back?
Also, if you resurrect Hyborem or Basium, does your civ get its traits back?
xienwolf
Deity
No return of traits if you resurrect Basium/Hyborem. But the equipment thing should be quite easy to do. Just delete the Hero as soon as you rez him and he'll drop the equipment right on your archmage.
