Dragon Slave

[MagisterCultuum]

The Mithril Golem is not made of stone, but of pure Mithril, the perfect metal. Mithril in Erebus possesses the peculiar quality of being completely resistant to all magic, or at least any form of magic any mortal has ever used. (I suppose you could argue that since Enchantment magic works by enhancing the intrinsic qualities of a material that mithril is just so perfect already that there is no way it could be enhanced.) I suspect that Luchuirp golem makers, enchanters, and archmages had tried to make golems out of mithil for ages, but to no avail. This golem had to be animated by Kilmorph herself. I personally wonder if maybe she didn't so much enchant it as order one of her angels to possess its form, or if she may have breathed a portion of herself into it the way Mulcarn did with Barnaxus. If so, then maybe it ought to gain a unitcombat and be able to get promotions.

Taking control of a golem would require magic to rewrite its programming. As stated before, the Mithril Golem is immune to all magic (the unit in the unmodded game does not have the Magic Immune promotion, but it really should), and so nothing should be able to enslave it.

 

[popejubal]

Indeed sir, what important facts have I missed?

The fact that you just used the word "facts" indicates that you do not understand what kind of thread this is.

 

[Senethro]

Ooooooh! Thats some papal infallibility from jubal right there!

Personally, I just like how the common but weird races are prevented from being enslaved, but Dragon race is available as a little easter egg that is a possible reward for killing a dragon and which won't disrupt game balance.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

The Mithril Golem is not made of stone, but of pure Mithril, the perfect metal. Mithril in Erebus possesses the peculiar quality of being completely resistant to all magic, or at least any form of magic any mortal has ever used. (I suppose you could argue that since Enchantment magic works by enhancing the intrinsic qualities of a material that mithril is just so perfect already that there is no way it could be enhanced.) I suspect that Luchuirp golem makers, enchanters, and archmages had tried to make golems out of mithil for ages, but to no avail. This golem had to be animated by Kilmorph herself. I personally wonder if maybe she didn't so much enchant it as order one of her angels to possess its form, or if she may have breathed a portion of herself into it the way Mulcarn did with Barnaxus. If so, then maybe it ought to gain a unitcombat and be able to get promotions.

Taking control of a golem would require magic to rewrite its programming. As stated before, the Mithril Golem is immune to all magic (the unit in the unmodded game does not have the Magic Immune promotion, but it really should), and so nothing should be able to enslave it.

Twas merely an expression, MC. I think the name was a good hint.

 

[Emptiness]

And swords can hit a Golem made out of solid stone or mithril and kill it. Again, who is to say that Golems can't feel pain (in some fashion, again, magic, use your imagination) or be coerced. Seriously.

Swords can destroy a lawn chair, but I seen no reason to assume that a lawn chair animated with magic would gain the ability to feel pain just because it can be killed. Indeed, there's no reason to assume that the hacked-up pieces of lawn chair would even stop being animated after the Sword does its work. Perhaps Barnaxus is aware of events while he is a pile of hewn bits, but unable to act in any meaningful way because the bits cannot reassemble themselves. This could well be true of all other golems, but perhaps reforging most golems is not worth the trouble; forging a fresh golem is a repeatable process, but reassembling golem bits would be like putting together a jigsaw puzzle.

Based on that interpretation, I can see the merit of MCs suggestion that it should also be possible to reforge The Mithril Golem. Perhaps there should be a gold cost associated with reforging a golem, to reflect the added effort required.

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[...] but Dragon race is available as a little easter egg that is a possible reward for killing a dragon and which won't disrupt game balance.

The balance problem is that it is possible to get the Dragon and the dragon slave. It should be an either-or proposition.

 

[popejubal]

The balance problem is that it is possible to get the Dragon and the dragon slave. It should be an either-or proposition.

I recall getting double results from Command promoted units under Clavery as well. I get one wounded unit that I defeated and I get one slave in addition. I'm not 100% sure that this has happened to me, but it's at least something I remember.

I don't really see a problem with this because I understand that the game is actually creating units for you that mirror the defeated unit rather than "giving" you the unit at the instant before its death, but I would have no problem with saying that you can't have both the defeated unit and a slave as well. It would involve adding extra code to check to see if one happened before the other would be allowed to succeed, but I don't imagine that would be an impossible task.

My biggest question here is whether the change would be worth the effort. Is this really breaking anyone's games? Is this so heinously unblanacing that it destroys the fun? Is this so hatefully against the lore that it draws down your enjoyment of Fall from Grace?

It's not really that big a deal for me. I'm inclined to leave the game exactly the way it is now unless a change would make the game significantly better. How much better a change has to be depends on how hard the change would be to impliment, so that's really a question for Kael.

...in other words, if Kael wants to change it, great. If Kael doesn't want to change it, that's great too.

 

[Emptiness]

My biggest question here is whether the change would be worth the effort. Is this really breaking anyone's games? Is this so heinously unblanacing that it destroys the fun? Is this so hatefully against the lore that it draws down your enjoyment of Fall from Grace?

My stance is that it is a problem. This is a fantasy setting, and so obviously violations of natural rules take place in almost every facet of the game. Generally they are explained by rational means, so that even if the technical details of how a fireball is summoned into existance are not known by the player, he or she is able to assimilate the concept of a fireball into an alternate reality representative of the game universe in a way that makes sense. Having a unit that represents a single entity effectively split into two copies of the same entity is immersion-breaking, in that there is no sensical explaination in place for how that would happen in this setting. Nothing about the Command promotions, or the Crown of Command, or the Subdue Beasts promotion, or the Slavery civic (as they are presented in the FfH2 setting) would indicate that in this reality a dragon would split into two entities as a result of their application.

The case for other units, those that represent multiple people working together, is less clear. Personally, I feel that having those units split into two is also problematic, because the slave unit that is produced is no less complete/functional than a "full" slave unit, and the military unit that is commanded is no weaker than a "full" unit of that type. In other words, there seems to be two units which have twice as many people as the one unit from which they came - which is again an immersion-breaking violation of the setting as it stands. Or have I missed some precedent in FfH2 lore for the idea that people are being duplicated as a consequence of the combination of mind-controlling magics and slavery?

I have no problem with the concept that such a split could result in a fantasy setting, but an explanation for it needs to be worked into the process at a fundamental level, such that it makes sense. This does not appear to be a case where the split is intended to occur but has not been adequately explained, but rather a bug that people are trying to rationalize leaving in place. I'm all for prioritizing debugging efforts to focus on serious problems first, and this certainly isn't a game-breaking bug. It is a bug, however, and it does deserve to be fixed.

 

[FireBlaze]

Based on that interpretation, I can see the merit of MCs suggestion that it should also be possible to reforge The Mithril Golem. Perhaps there should be a gold cost associated with reforging a golem, to reflect the added effort required.

Mortals couldn't rebuild it because Kilmorph was the one to enchant it together, so alone it would just be pieces of mithril. However, that does lead to some awesome possibilities, like the killer of the golem getting a temporary source of mithril.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Whether humans can rebuild it could depend on the nature of the enchantments and how it was destroyed. The enchantment could have remained in place even after the body was broken. There is an event where a civ finds part of an Age of Magic Clockwork Golem, and you are able to put it back together and get it working (albeit not as well) even if not the Luchuipr or in possession of enchantment mana. Barnaxus does not need re-enchanting when he is rebuilt, as he is not actually driven by the enchantments but by the breath of Mulcarn, which could perhaps be considered a soul. If the Mithril Golem wee similar infused by Kilmorph I would expect the enchantment to stick with the material long after its form has been broken. It might even last longer than with Barnaxus, as the mithril would resist spells trying to exorcise it.

 

[Tasunke]

I recall getting double results from Command promoted units under Clavery as well. I get one wounded unit that I defeated and I get one slave in addition. I'm not 100% sure that this has happened to me, but it's at least something I remember.

I don't really see a problem with this because I understand that the game is actually creating units for you that mirror the defeated unit rather than "giving" you the unit at the instant before its death, but I would have no problem with saying that you can't have both the defeated unit and a slave as well. It would involve adding extra code to check to see if one happened before the other would be allowed to succeed, but I don't imagine that would be an impossible task.

My biggest question here is whether the change would be worth the effort. Is this really breaking anyone's games? Is this so heinously unblanacing that it destroys the fun? Is this so hatefully against the lore that it draws down your enjoyment of Fall from Grace?

where is FFG anyways?

 

[Calavente]

Don't confuse controlling a unit with enslaving it. The only way to enslave a unit in FfH2 is through the Slavery civic (yes, slaves can be awarded or purchased without Slavery, but those slaves are not representative of any specific previously existing unit). Units that are enslaved have essentially surrendered before being killed in combat, and had their weapons and equipment taken away. This is important because it leads one to understand that races that would die before surrendering (undead, demons, angels) or that are so dangerous that they could slaughter armies while naked and unarmed (avatars) would never end up as slaves.

I am not confusing anything... you are just not following me were I want you to go
one could suppose that :
1) slaves units are composed of few guys : 1 represented team, so maybe 10-50 guys;
2) combat units with 3represented units (or 5) are combat companies : normaly 50-200+ mens. (or 200-500) (you don't defend a whole city of 10000 inhabitants with only 3 LB (9guys with longbow) ==> hence each figure represents a team of longbowmen.. hence I demonstrate my assuption.
-->it doesn't causes any problem to have 10-50 guys taken into slavery while the other guys are commanded to follow you... just say that the slaves one were camp followers or disrespectful/hardheaded guys that displeased your commander.

3) combat units with 1 guy represented ... much more difficult : either a little patrol size unit, either a hero... I don't think a hero should be able to become a groupe of 10-50 slaves... I don't think either that an shadow teams should be enslaved, neither units with loyalty. But archmage, mage, adept, High priest, priest, acolyte... fawn... all other 1man units can in reallity represent a small team of men/creatures.. and thus be enslaved.

4)Now dragons... maybe when upon dying, sometimes, the dragon incarnates in a young man (kurios).. with slavery one can maybe enslave this guy.
then again, with subdue beast or command promo, upon death you may subdue/convert the dragon, but maybe he already has incarnated part of himself into a boy...that you can enslave... (When the kurios build the eurabates, they don't lose their leader.... the boy still exists)

5) the undead-demons-angels : can you command them ?? I think not.. not in the FFH I play.
Should you be able : ? no ! those are not mortal ones... they are dédicated to their master and will forever refuse to follow you in an army.
should one be able to enslave them ? why not ? mayb you can coerce them into doing small work ... and they may obey, waiting to outlive you and escape... as for undead, maybe with magic you can make them obey you a bit... but not enough to fight.

in FFH, one can imagine Shaeim following Order ... one just has to work his mind to find an explanation... If you can do that.. why can't you imagine scenariis like those I told... or other one that allows you to explain a slave of the dragon race or make you want to be able to have an angel slave !!!

 

[WarKirby]

the unit in the unmodded game does not have the Magic Immune promotion, but it really should), and so nothing should be able to enslave it.

I'd disagree there. Magic is used for far more than enslaving. If you pelt a golem with big fireballs, it's going to have the same effect as pelting anything else with big fireballs.

They'd only need immunity to mind affecting spells, which they already have by virtue of being non-living.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'd disagree there. Magic is used for far more than enslaving. If you pelt a golem with big fireballs, it's going to have the same effect as pelting anything else with big fireballs.

They'd only need immunity to mind affecting spells, which they already have by virtue of being non-living.

This post would make sense if I said that golems in general should be Magic Immune, but I did not. I was talking only about The Mithril Golem. It is established in canon that Mithril resists all spells of all kinds, so no part of a golem made entirely of pure mithril would be vulnerable to any kind of magic.

 

[Tasunke]

burn



On another note, that is interesting to learn of mithril. If their was ever any mithril armor, it could perhaps give half the bonus of the magic resistant trait. (10% resistance of elements and spells)

 

[blade117]

^^^^^
The Irony

 

[WCH]

Units in FfH can have promotions for both mithral weapons and enchanted blade.

 

[Emptiness]

MC suggested (in another thread) that perhaps Mithril should block/remove Enchanted Weapon, for the same reason that the Mithril Golem should have Magic Immunity. It sounds fine in principal, although there should probably be a boost in the natural strength of Mithril weapons to compensate, for the sake of balance. Maybe Mithril should be +5 Str, or +4 Str & +20%.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It could also be given a bonus vs unitcombat_adept, and/or provide magic resistance. I think giving 20% magic resistance but not resistance to elemental damage like the Magic Resistance promotion gives would be good. Mithril weapons should certainly not be effected by Rust, as being immune to corrosion is generally considered one of its defining qualities, all arguments I've seen for it being able to rust have said it won't normally corrode but only will if magically altered, and the civilopedia clearly states no such magic will work on the metal.

If it were made unenchantable as in the lore, then I'd recommend it not being given out automatically. In FF you could easily remove the autoaquire tag while leaving it not needing xp and weighing the AI towards taking it. Frankly equiping a whole army with such an expensive material seems wrong, so giving it a gold cost too might be good.

 

[Tasunke]

I agree with Fall Further's new buffed mithril to require a gold cost.

 

[Souljar]

My two cents. I've been reading Fantasy for ages and Imortals, angels and even gods are constantly being corrupted, coersed (enslaved) and what not. Hard to see how one can make a convincing arguement why, in a fantasy setting these things should not be possible. All i know is that from a game perspective, collecting unique units adds to game suspence and enjoyment.
The tech and unit buildup to a Acheron capture is fun, the more sidequests a game offers, the more entertaining it is.

Go with the flow and give the barbarians what they want...)