Dragons Can't Fly

[WarKirby]

something I'm finding to be rather odd. Dragons don't have the flying promotion.

They have the ability to enter impassable terrain, which allows them to move over peaks and such, but they're completely incapable of entering water.

I've yet to test if I can load Coatlann onto a ship, but it seems a pretty ridiculous thing to have to resort to when they've got those huge leathery wings.

This is something carried over from base FFH, but I'm wondering why it's like that. Would it be a good idea to change it? I think it would logically fit.

Also, did you guys make Eurabatres weaker? I could have sword he had a higher strength in FFH than he does now...

 

[Valkrionn]

This I actually have to agree with. They obviously have wings, and can 'walk' onto mountains... If it's because flying ignores movement costs, could always roll waterwalking into the dragon racial.

 

[TimSLS]

Well, dragons likely need to eat substantial amounts of food, so it wouldn't be terribly realistic to expect them to cross oceans.

 

[WarKirby]

Well, dragons likely need to eat substantial amounts of food, so it wouldn't be terribly realistic to expect them to cross oceans.

So, they eat the food before they go.

Although, these are very magical dragons. Are we sure they even need to eat at all? maybe they're sustained entirely by magic.

 

[TimSLS]

Well, as much as I'm completely leaving myself open to the retort that there is no way to make the timescale very sensible, I'd say eating ahead for a couple of weeks is feasible, but thats 1 turn or so, not enough to cross an ocean.

Hard to say whether they eat - Dragons being the created tools of gods. Though there is certainly some relationship between them and standard AD&D (the relative strengths and alignments between the different dragons is directly in line - color dragons evil, metalic dragons good, in power Gold most powerful, white weakest...even the polymorphing ability of gold dragons bears some resemblance to the game situation). If we go by AD&D 2nd edition Monstrous Manual, they do eat (though a very few types sustain themselves off gems and the like rather than food). Not sure if there's a better source, unless some lore is out there on this point...

 

[cIV_khanh93]

To say that a dragon shouldnt be able to cross an ocean is ludicrous. They're uber units! the very firrst is available at Animal Mastery (Acheron) If having a flying dragon that late in the game is overpowering, then this mod really needs a lot of nerfs...

 

[TimSLS]

I don't think the argument here is over balance issues. As WarKirby said, it is whether "it would logically fit."

Besides, since dragons currently do not fly, and what is being debated is adding the flying ability, your argument "they are uber units" would be just as valid to start all dragons off with combat II promotion, or with canabilize, or drop all their production costs by 100. Unless you have a specific argument as to adding flying?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Are we sure they even need to eat at all?

Yes. Dragons eat Kings and Heroes.

Ok, it isn't actually clear that they need to eat, but they do have hunger and enjoy devouring the powerful. Just ask Tasunke and Vaghan of Lugus.

 

[WarKirby]

Unless you have a specific argument as to adding flying?

They have wings, and they can cross mountains.

 

[Anathema]

Would it be possible to let them cross coast but not ocean (like a galley)? I mean I buy the "dragon shouldn't be able to spend months crossing a vast ocean" argument, but it's silly that they can't fly over a couple tiles of lake or narrow sea. And if you're wondering whether this is really such a big deal to be worth changing, yes, yes it certainly can be on Erebus or Highlands.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

of course dragons should be able to fly. I also think that any winged unit in the game should have flying. having more flying units in the game would add some more strategy to the game imho. archery units should probably get a bonus against them for example.

 

[HadesScorn]

Support the OP on this one. Fits thematically and doesn't break the game.

 

[TimSLS]

They have wings, and they can cross mountains.

No argument that Dragons fly (the black dragon civopedia description seems to say this much) just whether the effects of the flying promotion are appropriate. Though after further thought, I'm convinced that not being able to cross lakes is much weirder than sustaining themselves on an ocean trip. Anathema has a good idea on the galley mechanic though...

I would worry that the AI not too readily send them into the ocean, as it opens them up to attacks from ships, which can be quite powerful. Especially with the dragons relativly low movement, they would be unlikely to be able to escape back to land to heal, if caught in the open. Perhaps a bonus against naval vessels would be appropriate - a ball of fire or a tail slap against a mast would be pretty effective against ships.

At any rate, what I'd really like to do is turn the black dragon into a Dracolich...

 

[Anathema]

I would worry that the AI not too readily send them into the ocean, as it opens them up to attacks from ships, which can be quite powerful. Especially with the dragons relativly low movement, they would be unlikely to be able to escape back to land to heal, if caught in the open. Perhaps a bonus against naval vessels would be appropriate - a ball of fire or a tail slap against a mast would be pretty effective against ships.

Well, I think it's a given that if the AI does somehow manage to build a dragon or any other powerful unit, the AI is bound to get it killed in a spectacularly stupid way. Any such change is purely for the player's benefit, it really won't help or hurt the AI much imo.

Anecdotal "proof": The only time I've seen the black dragon is when the Os-Gabella, being across an ocean from me, decided to declare war and send a single ship over with nothing in it but the dragon. Said dragon had been freshly built with no promotions, beelined to a city on a hill and promptly died to an experienced city defender/guerilla longbowman of mine. I was.. underwhelmed. Incidently the ship actually caused more damage, it pillaged a fishing boat before escaping back to its homeland.

Edit: Actually, come to think of it, that may be the only time I've seen the FFH AI even attempt cross-ocean warfare by loading unit(s) into a ship and sending them at me - I guess I should be impressed the dragon got there at all.

 

[MaxAstro]

I don't think the argument here is over balance issues. As WarKirby said, it is whether "it would logically fit."

Besides, since dragons currently do not fly, and what is being debated is adding the flying ability, your argument "they are uber units" would be just as valid to start all dragons off with combat II promotion, or with canabilize, or drop all their production costs by 100. Unless you have a specific argument as to adding flying?

It makes at least as much sense as Griffins, and those can already cross oceans.

 

[HadesScorn]

Further-

Lore wise, there is nothing to suggest that Dragons cannot also swim. Unless we accept Tolkien's dragons, which would be stupid. Most reptiles have at least some ability to swim in the water, and this would allow the traveling dragon to feed on fish schools. Or sea serpents. Or Drown, for that matter [mmm...pickled manflesh...]

MaxAstro brings up a good point- Griffons are the earliest flying unit, quite easy to pick up with a Subdue Animal creature in the first hundred turns. They require little in the way of tech and none in the way of production. Why can they fly over the ocean? Because they have wings, and Kael decided that meant they could fly. I can remember quite a few games where I've circumnavigated the world before I ever researched a single ocean tech as the result of an early Griffon capture, allowing map and tech trades that have catapulted me ahead.

So why should dragons get flying? Because they have wings, require late game techs to acquire and usually production as well. Unlike adding combat II or cannibalize, Flying does not [imhm] grant any combat bonuses, it merely simplifies movement. Imagine loading Auric onto a ship to take cross-continent. Why should you have to do the same with a dragon, one of the most powerful creations of the Gods?

 

[Iceciro]

Always annoyed me I couldn't send my captured Acheron out on the ocean to toast any enemy navy.
I support flying dragons.

 

[Tarquelne]

They have wings, and they can cross mountains.

I suspect there are birds that have wings do cross mountains but don't cross oceans. There are certainly airplanes like that.

The point about lakes is better. OTOH - just how big are these lakes on the map? It could matter.

Personally I like the idea of giving dragons wings - there could be AI issues, though, if the AI likes to send it's uberheros off to die alone - but if we want a "realistic" explanation for not doing so one's at hand: They're too big to fly for an extended period. They can "hop" up and down mountains by resting frequently. They can use this limited flight to devastating effect in battle. But they don't have the range to cross an ocean before becoming too tired to fly.

 

[DavidB1111]

Um, a mountain is one of the few things in the world a plane can't travel on. At least, if it's much higher than Denver.

Oceans have been crossed before by planes, and much easier than real mountains. See the Alps, Mt. Everest.

If you can show me a plane that can go above Mt. Everest, let me know. No, really, I've never heard of such a thing.

I mean, yes, most planes operate at 30,000 feet, but still, I don't see them landing on Everest, let alone having more issues with the Ocean itself!

Let me know if I'm misunderstanding you.

Also, there's no real reason why dragons can't go over the ocean...I urge you and others to either look for more info or show me info that proves Dragons can't do anything.. Dragons may be huge, but they can fly, and they aren't going to just die falling into the ocean because of hunger or tiredness
If they were that hungry, they would have eaten everything on the planet first...
as for Dragons being tired, well, A. They're magic, and. B. They're immune to sleep.

 

[Darksaber1]

Well, I think the biggest lakes are 9 tiles or so, but "lorewise" I don't know how big that is. Ang why couldn't a dragon enjoy tuna, swordfish and shark?