Dresden- Justified or Not?

[Adler17]

First of all I compared a crime, the Holocaust, with another crime, Dresden in particular, while also meaning the bombing war. I should keep Dresden and will not discuss the other bombings (Hamburg, Berlin, Königsberg,...). I made the mistake not to be more precise. Of course the Holocaust was worse. Full stop. But the penalty for both crimes is the same. If you kill 100 Jews as a Nazi you deserve the worst penalty as well as you kill 2 Germans as revenge and terror.
Secondly, even if Dresden had so much industry, which might be possible, the time of the attack and the execution of the attack are remarkeable: The Allies were deep in Germany and the city full of refugees. They felt safe cause no bomber attacked it. Like Heidelberg it seemed to be safe. If it was so important why was it no attacked earlier? Within the bombing campaign it was possible. Why now? Why attacking small town and villages to spread up so much terror that there were more refugees? Why was the whole city target? No, the only logical consequence is it was done due revenge and terror and to show the Russians the ability of the RAF and USAAF. So it was attacked only to spread terror and was so a crime.
Third. Hitler got much support in contrast to his racism. He had to hide it. Was it wrong to elect someone like him? Yes. To a certain degree the Germans didn´t care about the Jews and the reprisals. Even most Jews thought it would only be a small phase of repression. No one could imagine the Holocaust. I repead: it was a huge mistake to oversee Hitler´s racism. But the Holocaust?
It is doubted that there must have been hints. The Germans must have known about the Holocaust. You´re right. There were hints and some Germans knew about this. But not the ordianary Otto Schmidt from the neighbourhood. I read about a man in the Spiegel magazine, who heard the only BBC report about death camps. He was against Hitler, but THAT? He thought about propaganda and so thought it was a lie like the bayonetting of babies in Fladres in ww1. Typical Brits, he thought. But unlike others, too many, he made researches. He needed over a year to have the proof! So most Germans didn´t know about that.
A crime (Holocaust) can never even excuse another crime (Dresden). Since there was in that time only one penalty for both, you can not do more than kill a person, the ones who were responsible should have hung.

Adler

 

[Drakan]

first point: agreed
second point: agreed but the U.S.A.F. weren't involved, only the R.A.F. (if I'm not mistaken)
third: agreed. I doubt the majority of Germans knew about it. Men and officers such as Von Stauffenberg and the other 100 high-ranking officers (Rommel also, hmmm?...) saved, at least for me, somewhat the honour of Germany and the German Army as a whole for what they did, IMHO.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

@adler

First – What has the ‘penalty’ got to do with it. Comparing the Holocaust to Dresden is like comparing a slap on the wrist to a bullet in the head. You should not even mention the two in the same sentence.

Second – You clearly did not read my previous post. Dresden was not ‘full of refugees’. This is Nazi propaganda you choose to believe.

Third – There’s none so deaf as those who do not wish to hear.

Dresden was not so much a crime, but a well intentioned bombing run against a military target “that went terribly right”. (as Taylor said)
And Dresden was as nothing compared to Stalingrad and Lenningrad.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Some quotes from the USAF Historical Division's report on the Dresden bombing.

A few corrections needed here:

(3) on theAllied use of force
The forces and means employed by the RAF in the area bombing of Dresden were significantly large.

Should read:
The forces and means employed by the RAF in the area bombing of Dresden were significantly, but not unduly large: 722 heavy bombers dropped 1477.7 tons of high explosives and 1181.6 tons of incendiaries, a total weight of 2659.3 tons. In its sustained area raids on Hamburg in 1943, the RAF had used comparable numbers of aircraft in single raids; for example, 740 heavy bombers on 24/25 July, 739 on 28/29 July, and 726 on 29/30 July. In other area raids, the British had dispatched such tonnages as 11,773 tons of high explosive and 4,106 tons of incendiaries against Cologne on 9 October 1944, 4,368 tons of high explosives and 3,846 tons of incendiaries against Hamburg on 7 August 1943, and 3,476 tons of high explosives and 3,814 tons of incendiaries against Frankfurt-am-Main on 24 March 1944.

(4) on the amount of damage done to property. Note the percentage of damage done to industry vs people's homes.
23 per cent of the city’s industrial buildings were seriously damaged and 56 per cent of the non-industrial buildings had been heavily damaged. 80 per cent of domestic buildings were heavily damaged.

Correction:
Later British assessments, which were more conservative, concluded that 23 per cent of the city’s industrial buildings were seriously damaged and that 56 per cent of the non-industrial buildings (exclusive of dwellings) had been heavily damaged. Of the total number of dwelling units in the city proper, 78,000 were regarded as demolished, 27,700 temporarily uninhabitable but ultimately repairable, and 64,500 readily repairable from minor damage. This later assessment indicated that 80 per cent of the city’s housing units had undergone some degree of damage and that 50 per cent of the dwellings had been demolished or seriously damaged.

(6) in conclusion...
Large-scale bombing was almost certainly a major contribution to the final weakening of the will of the German people to resist…the Americans, happily, cannot and would not claim credit for this aspect of the Dresden bombings.

Taken from this passage, but not the report's conclusion:

The major significance of the Dresden bombings lay in the fact that they were among several immediate and highly successful air actions made in response to the specific Russian request, given by General Antonov at the ARGONAUT Conference, less than two weeks earlier, for Allied air support of the Russian offensive on the Eastern Front. Had the German communications centers leading to that front--among which Dresden was uniquely important--act been successfully attacked by Allied strategic air forces, there can be little doubt that the course of the European war might have been considerably prolonged. At the time of the Dresden bombings, Marshal Koniev’s armies were less than seventy miles east of Dresden and by virtue of their extended positions highly vulnerable to German counterattack, provided the Germans could pass reinforcements through Dresden. With communications through Dresden made impossible as a consequence of the Allied bombings, the Russian salient in that area was rendered safe throughout the ensuing months of the war.
Of secondary significance, but by no means negligible, was the destruction or disruption of Dresden’s manufacturing activities, particularly of military goods, and the further reduction of Germany’s critically short railway rolling stock and operating facilities. Again, the death and destruction inflicted on the largest German city that had not before undergone large-scale bombing was almost certainly a major contribution to the final weakening of the will of the German people to resist. While the Americans, happily, cannot and would not claim credit for this aspect of the Dresden bombings, the fact remains that the RAF area raid on the city was the last of the instances during World War II in Europe when the shock effects of area bombing resulted in nearly total demoralization of a great enemy city.

The actual conclusion reads:
The foregoing historical analysis establishes the following definitive answers to the recurring questions concerning the February 1945 bombings of Dresden by Allied strategic air forces: a. Dresden was a legitimate military target. b. Strategic objectives, of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians, underlay the bombings of Dresden. c. The Russians requested that the Dresden area be bombed by Allied air forces. d. The Supreme Allied Commander, his Deputy Supreme Commander, and the key British and American operational air authorities recommended and ordered the bombing of Dresden. e. The Russians were officially informed by the Allies concerning the intended date of and the forces to be committed to the bombing of Dresden. f. The RAF Bomber Command employed 772 heavy bombers, 1477.7 tons of high explosive and 1181.6 tons of incendiary bombs, and American Eighth Air Force employed a total of 527 heavy bombers, 953.3 tons of high explosive and 294.3 tons of incendiary bombs, in the 14-15 February bombings of Dresden. g. The specific target objectives in the Dresden bombings were, for the RAF Bomber Command, the Dresden city area, including industrial plants, communications, military installations, and for the American Eighth Air Force, the Dresden Marshalling Yards and railway facilities. h. The immediate and actual consequences of the Dresden bombings were destruction or severe damage to at least 23 per cent of the city’s industrial buildings; severe damage to at least 56 per cent of the city’s non-industrial buildings (exclusive of dwellings); destruction or severe damage to at least 50 percent of the residential units in the city’s non-industrial buildings (exclusive of dwellings); destruction or severe damage to at least 50 percent of the residential units in the city, and at least some damage to 80 per cent of the city’s dwellings; the total disruption of the city as a major communications center, in consequence of destruction and damage inflicted on its railway facilities; and death to probably 25,000 persons and serious injury to probably 30,000 others, virtually all of these casualties being the result of the RAF area raid. i. The Dresden bombings were in no way a deviation from established bombing policies set forth in official bombing directives. j. The specific forces and means employed in the Dresden bombings were in keeping with the forces and means employed by the Allies in other aerial attacks on comparable targets in Germany. k. The Dresden bombings achieved the strategic objectives that underlay the attack and were of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians.

 

[Boleslav]

The report says that 80 per cent of the cities dwellings were damaged. That's as compared to 25 per cent of the industry in the city. Doesn't seem to me like industry was the main target from those statistics.

The USAF report does make very interesting reading overall. (Spelling mistakes aside) It is very much arguing that Dresden wasn't the fault of the USAF because (a) Stalin asked them to bomb it and (b) it was the Brits that did the bombing anyway. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, no one wants to admit culpability in case they are required to pay compensation.

 

[Hitro]

Comparing the Holocaust to Dresden is like comparing a slap on the wrist to a bullet in the head.

Wrong. It is like comparing a "common" murderer with a serial rapist and murderer that was after little children for decades.

But the point is that the one thing already deserves the maximum punishment and contempt. Things like that don't get better if someone else does something even worse.

 

[privatehudson]

Edit: Decided this comment was best left unsaid lest it upset someone

 

[Boleslav]

The historian RHS Crossman, worked in the UK Foreign Office as Director of Psychological Warfare against Germany. He also worked during the war for Eisenhower and after the war stood for parliament in Coventry. Therefore he is a firsthand source on the thought process behind the Allied bombing of Dresden. He was at the meetings, he was in the loop. Here are some quotes from an article he wrote in Esquire Magazine, November 1963:

(1) Damage to people's homes
Out of 28,410 houses in the inner city of Dresden, 24,866 were destroyed.
- similiar to the USAF's 80 per cent figure.

(2) Dresden's defenses
All its flak batteries had been removed for use on the Eastern front; and the Dresden authorities had taken none of the precautions, either in the strengthening of air-raid shelters, or in the provision of concrete bunkers that had so startlingly reduced casualties in other German cities subjected to Allied attack.

(3) the plan
Air Marshal Harris decided to achieve this by a deliberately created fire storm, and to increase the effect he persuaded the Americans to split the available bombers into three groups. The task of the first wave was to create the fire storm. Three hours later, a second and much heavier night force of British bombers was timed to arrive when the German fighter and flak defenses would be off guard, and the rescue squads on their way. Its task was to spread the fire storm. Finally, the next morning, a daylight attack by the Eighth Air Force was to concentrate on the outlying areas, the new city.

(4) The premeditated nature of the Allied bombardment
Without exaggeration, the commanders could claim that the Dresden raid had "gone according to plan." Everything which happened in the stricken city had been foreseen and planned with meticulous care.

(5) Why Dresdeners thought they were safe
In the last year of the war, Dresden had become a hospital city, with many of its schools converted into temporary wards. Of its nineteen hospitals, sixteen were badly damaged and three, including the main maternity clinic, totally destroyed.

Dresden, as was known very well in London and Washington, was not only a hospital city but a prisoner-of-war city -- still another reason why the authorities assumed it would not be attacked.

(6) On the claim that it was the Soviets who called for the bombing
In order to stop awkward questions, General George C. Marshall then gave a public assurance that the bombing on Dresden had taken place at Russian request. Although no evidence was produced either then or since for the truth of this statement, it was accepted uncritically and has since found its way into a number of official American histories.

(7) His judgement
The British Cabinet, having secretly decided to sanction indiscriminate terror bombing, concealed this decision from the British public and therefore compelled Bomber Command to operate under cover of a sustained and deliberate lie.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The report says that 80 per cent of the cities dwellings were damaged. That's as compared to 25 per cent of the industry in the city. Doesn't seem to me like industry was the main target from those statistics.

The USAF report does make very interesting reading overall. (Spelling mistakes aside) It is very much arguing that Dresden wasn't the fault of the USAF because (a) Stalin asked them to bomb it and (b) it was the Brits that did the bombing anyway. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, no one wants to admit culpability in case they are required to pay compensation.

You quoted the report as having said 80% of dwellings heavily damaged, which was, you'll admit, an error.

While the RAF would have prefered to hit military/industrial targets they didn't really have the ability to - early in the war bombers would be lucky to hit the correct city, let alone a particular factory. As a night bombing force, area bombing was about all they could manage.

The report was written long before compensation issues became important I believe, I think that the reason the US was so careful to avoid heavy civilian casualties in Europe was really a domestic issue, due to the large number of US citizens of German decent. They used area bombing in Japan well enough.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

...Indeed, the German authorities were probably correct who, a few days after the attack, put the total somewhere between 120,000 and 150,000.

I think that's all that needs to be said about the accuracy of Crossman's article.

 

[Boleslav]

It's true that Crossman is vehemently opposed to any justification for bombing Dresden, but in terms of his understanding of the death toll, he was no more wrong than everyone else at the time, including Churchill. It took time to arrive at the figures we have today.

I intentionally decided not to post his more sensationalist opinions. As I've said, he was personally involved in planning the Allied war effort and I believe it's telling how horrified and disgusted he was concerning Dresden.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

Wrong. It is like comparing a "common" murderer with a serial rapist and murderer that was after little children for decades.

Wrong. Dresden was not murder. This was total war and Dresden was a legitimate military target. Don’t get me wrong, it was terrible carnage, but it was a legitimate bombing run (designed to help bring an end to the war) that “went terribly right”.
Did you not read my previous posts?

 

[Adler17]

Mega Tsunami, I don´t know Taylor. I can´t say whether he is a good historician or something else. His article seems to be (IMO) not the historically acurate one. Indeed there were "only" 40.000 casualities (biggest figure), instead of 200.000 or so. Indeed Goebbels made propaganda of this. Indeed it might have any military value. But the city was one of the biggest Jewels of European architecture, full of things which are now in the UN heritage lists. Dresden was never bombed before. And there WERE thousands of refugees in the city. My grandma drove from Silesia back to Hamburg half a year earlier and even then there were refugees. Also the FlaK was at the eastern front. The city didn´t expect an attack. There were 500.000 inhabitants and 600.000 refugees. Even if it had any significant military value an attack because of this circumstances had to be stopped. These figures were also at least roughly known at the British bomber command. Also attacking with three waves to make a firestorm to destroy the whole city is not made to destroy the military targets but the whole city. Here are some good pictures of Dresden 1945: http://www.brigittewiechmann.de/kalender/februar2/13feb.html
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/ba005532/
http://www.dresden-bilder.de/dd/zerstoerung.html
Dresden was a war crime. Of course the Holocaust was worse. Again full stop. You can´t compare them directly I agree but what about the penalties? Murder is murder, even when the worse has more guilty, there is only one penalty. In Germany the penalty of murder was the death in 1945. The delinquent was beheaded. In Britain and the US the penalty was the death. You was hung or got toasted. In each way you was dead. Perhaps we can discuss which way of execution should be for the certain crimes (sarcasm).
Dresden IS a war crime and also a crime against humanity IMO. It is not excuseable or even justifiable.

Adler

 

[Mega Tsunami]

@adler. Let’s agree to differ. You prefer to believe Nazi and Russian propagandists, I prefer to believe a current historian.

A historian I might add who has only been able to get at certain information since the fall of the iron curtain.

You can think what you like, it’s a free country, as we say, due in part to the bombing of places like Dresden.

 

[Esckey]

Why is it that the loser's story is always propaganda and the winners is always the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and if you don't believe it that your either an idiot, or a Nazi sympathizer...or just plain nazi?

 

[Adler17]

I have read much about the bomb war and my sources are eldeder and new! I doubt in your source. I doubt in Taylor. I do not know him but he seems to justify something which isn´t justifiable.

Adler

 

[Mega Tsunami]

Why is it that the loser's story is always propaganda and the winners is always the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and if you don't believe it that your either an idiot, or a Nazi sympathizer...or just plain nazi?

A bit ironic, but the ‘winners’ in Dresden itself was the Russians (Dresden being in East Germany). They continued the Nazi propaganda after the war, showing how evil the Allies were. It is only recently that the truth has come out.
We therefore had to put up with the ‘loser’s propaganda’ for 50+ years. (Or was that the 'winner's propaganda' )

 

[privatehudson]

Taylor's remarks are accurate enough, the problem Adler has with them is simply that they do not fit within his narrow view of what a viable target was, or his narrow view of what the enemy where. This and his "moral" stand against such actions are bound to influence his reading of such an article.

As for Dresden being a beautiful city, so was a lot of places in europe, so was Leningrad, so was a lot of England, this is what happens in war, if we're using cultural arguments to prevent bombing, no bombing would ever occur anywhere....

 

[Adler17]

Dresden albeit used as propaganda wasn´t propaganda. It was a terrible fact. All who try to explain Dresden as lone propaganda come close to Holocaust deniers. Be careful with them.

Adler

 

[privatehudson]

It's a horrible fact, but the reasons behind the decisions, the effects and the way it's portrayed are open to propaganda as much as anything else...