Drill is worthless

[westamastaflash]

So what changes with the dance of blades spell promo? Does this improve Drill I to the point that its better to have than it is currently?

 

[EverNoob]

So what changes with the dance of blades spell promo? Does this improve Drill I to the point that its better to have than it is currently?

I don't think it changes much, you still need a strong unit to take advantage of dance of blades properly. As far as I know it still only gives +1 first strike for a single turn, so is still pretty weak. If it gave +2 first strikes, or stayed permanent, it might be useful then.

 

[3141592]

Yes the dance of blades spell does, but there is also a combat promo spell (enchanted blade) so although spells should be counted on a game by game basis they shouldn't be counted on for the entire mod.

Great work EverNoob, I really hope Kael goes with your changes, they simply extend what drill is supposed to do making it a bit more viable.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm still hoping that drill will be an important part of the new morale mechanic (and that this mechanic gets added in .31).

 

[Darkheart]

How about each first strike has a (small chance) of causing the attacker to withdraw, thus canceling the attack?

 

[Darkheart]

Too elaborate on my last.... Archers and Siege weapons are both defensive units... true they can be used as attackers but melee and fireballs are so much better.

By causing the attacker to withdraw with each First strike chance you are increasing the defensive capabilities of Drill without enhancing the Gilden/Rosier Super-hero "exploit"

Also a 2xp Drill 1 archer now has a (small chance) of delaying (but not killing)the Str 4 combat V City attack 3 city killer thats been single handedly taking you empire to bits. Something that a 2xp combat 1 or City garrison 1 Archer could never do.

It also works well for mounted units caught in the open... they would now have the chance to delay their attacker thus allowing them an escape or counter-attack.

Thus Drill-I-IV now has a valid defence function within or outside a city, whilst not over-powering or simulating other promotions

 

[EverNoob]

I just noticed something. When attacking cities, my combat V, drill IV axeman gains 2xp per battle, while my other axeman with combat V, city raider III only gains 1xp per battle despite being lower level. Then I remembered that xp gain is dependent on attacker/defender strength ratio.

That highlights another benefit of drill, it allows you to increase your combat odds without decreasing your xp gain.

 

[onedreamer]

The problem is that like some other combat promotions, Drill's strength was not improved in FFH, unlike Combat. So now Combat is more valuable. I think Combat promotions are too unbalancing, and they should be changed back to 10%, maybe allowing the Combat 6 (+25% strength) to Heroes. This would work better than increasing Drill's strength, IMO.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

No don't nerf the other promotions, just add the morale mechanic! The most logical bonus for drill is a morale boost; these promotions would become essential when fighting superior foes not because it makes the unit any stronger, but because it make the unit able to attack, instead of refusing to fight. The Fear mechanic should be changed to be a function of morale in addition to the units strength, so that demoralized troops will refuse to attack stronger enemies, even those without "Fear" or "Dragon." Drill would be essential to keep your armies fighting, and would help you stand up to Armageddon heroes and beasts better.

 

[Basil II]

Great point There MC, that would be the perfect solution.

 

[Roghar]

Yes, yes it would Great solution

It also makes some sense for archer troops - I'd be much happier fighting a superior enemy if several hundred yards away while the melee troops cower in fear in between

 

[onedreamer]

Great point There MC, that would be the perfect solution.

I don't see how it can be a solution at all, let alone a perfect solution. Drill and other promotions would still remain suboptimal to Combat, you would only give them to cannon fodder so that they can soften up strong enemies, and finish them with your combat 5 units. Your stronger units won't need a morale boost. And don't get me started about teaching YET ANOTHER mechanic to the AI. Combat mechanics should be simplest possible for the AI to make effective use of them. The perfect and most balanced solution is already in Civ4.

 

[CyberChrist]

How about if units gained 1-4 free XP whenever upgrading with a Drill promotion? Seems kind of consistance with the implied extra practicing.

 

[jenks]

I don't see how it can be a solution at all, let alone a perfect solution. Drill and other promotions would still remain suboptimal to Combat, you would only give them to cannon fodder so that they can soften up strong enemies, and finish them with your combat 5 units. Your stronger units won't need a morale boost. And don't get me started about teaching YET ANOTHER mechanic to the AI. Combat mechanics should be simplest possible for the AI to make effective use of them. The perfect and most balanced solution is already in Civ4.

here here

i think the primary issue with fixing drill should be short term ... addressing the balance - about making it suitable for use in the game, not making it a cool new toy to play with.

but hey ... discuss away, gotta attract Kael's attention somehow!

 

[Rutee]

I find it amusing that people are talking about an unimplemented mechanic in the design stages as if they know PRECISELY how it would work, and that their Combat V units will still be quite happy to attack with pitiful morale.

Mind, the bit about teaching another mechanic to the AI is quite valid; I simply found the concept of discussing mechanics that are in the design stages in /any/ form of absolute to be utterly silleh.

Incidentally, while there's no guarantee that it would work as such here, obviously, in most games I've seen that have morale, losing units /lowers/ it. So Drilling up peons to soften up an enemy then sending them in like cannon fodder, in those games, will get your morale tanked to the point of units being ineffective. But that strikes me as a highly difficult thing to implement here. Perhaps if it accounted for allied losses in a 2 tile radius, so splitting the stack isn't even more useful..

 

[EverNoob]

Alot of people seem to be in favour of major changes when only minor tweaks are needed. I mean I understand wanting to spice things up a little, but just like every other promotion line, drill (the way it generally is currently) fills a role. It just needs a little tweaking to fill in that role better.

My understanding is that drill is intended to be used by high strength units that fight multiple battles in a single turn. Most often this happens with city defenders under siege, strong units being mobbed by weaker ones, or high xp units with blitz. It probably is useful for units with marksmen as well, if they are able to take blitz. Since they already tend to have a strength advantage, drill and blitz would allow them to assinate multiple units. I'm not sure if they can take blitz though.

 

[westamastaflash]

Thread resurrection!

I was thinking about this and Dance of Blades seems incredibly weak compared to enchanted blade. Could it be made permanent and give 1-2 first strikes? Enchantment is pretty sweet with the spellstaff and the +1 happy, could chaos use a bit of a bump?

 

[thapagan]

While I like permanent spells, having spells wear off forces you to expose you wizards as members of your army rather than be a team of city based drill instructors.

I have been caught out a few times picking the wrong spells when that stack of doom
"came around the mountain"
Some days you can't even send a hawk in the right direction!

 

[westamastaflash]

Then Courage and Enchanted blade ought to last a turn too, or perhaps they all could wear off slowly like Valor does...

 

[smusebaer]

How about a second attack with Dancing blade? It´s not usefull for every unit, but if you use a unit with grat strength and move 2 it´s great.

Permant effects for enchantment is ok.