Drill is worthless

TheJopa · Dec 16, 2007

Hmmm, I'm a bit reluctant to adding withdrawal, there are already separate promotions for it.

Demus · Dec 16, 2007

defence from collateral damage would work, aswell as maibe additional bonusses to certain unit types? (drill 1=+10% melee, 2 +10% mounted, 3 +10% archery, 4 +10% disciple? or in a different order, or 20% instead of 10, i dunno)

eerr · Dec 16, 2007

actually i think it does give resistance to collateral right now, it's just not listed
(i had problems with catapaults vs archers way long ago)

Zuul · Dec 16, 2007

Will start working on promotion mod (a balancing and an adding) when I get my new computer (probably in a week). My other one broke.

westamastaflash · Dec 16, 2007

Demus said:
defence from collateral damage would work, aswell as maibe additional bonusses to certain unit types? (drill 1=+10% melee, 2 +10% mounted, 3 +10% archery, 4 +10% disciple? or in a different order, or 20% instead of 10, i dunno)

I like this idea, but it kind of replaces shock, cover, and formation.

Perhaps just increasing the number of first strike chances, but not actual first strikes?

Arqane · Dec 16, 2007

westamastaflash said:
I like this idea, but it kind of replaces shock, cover, and formation.

Perhaps just increasing the number of first strike chances, but not actual first strikes?

I really don't like this for an actual buff, which is why I put the opposite. Since first strike chances are 50%, over the long run, each 2 first strike chances = 1 first strike. So if you went from 3-6 first strikes to 3-19 first strikes, you're essentially giving 11 first strikes through the game.

On the other hand, if you always give units 6 first strikes instead of 3-6 you get both effects that are wanted. You're giving a buff for 75% of the battles, but the maximum power hasn't changed. There's a chance for you to get 6 first strikes with drill IV already, so why not just make it more consistent?

OzzyKP · Dec 16, 2007

westamastaflash said:
I agree with Aragane - they buffed the combat promos, why not the drill promos too?

Exactly. It just makes sense.

The combat promos were doubled. From +10% to +20%. Putting aside the larger debate about whether combat or first strikes are better overall, at the very least the Drill line should be likewise doubled.

Currently the promos are:

Drill 1: 1 first strike chance
Drill 2: 1 first strike and -20% collateral damage
Drill 3: 2 first strike chances and -20% collateral damage
Drill 4: 2 first strikes and -20% collateral damage and +10% vs. mounted units

So a simple answer is to just double the first strikes:

Drill 1: 2 first strike chances
Drill 2: 2 first strikes and -20% collateral damage
Drill 3: 4 first strike chances and -20% collateral damage
Drill 4: 4 first strikes and -20% collateral damage and +20% vs. mounted units

So if you get 4 drill promotions you'd have 6 first strike chances and 6 first strikes. If, as people are saying, a chance is 50% then that would be 9 first strikes. A very nice bonus. But more than +80% strength? I dunno. Worth trying I think.

Roghar · Dec 16, 2007

As mentioned before, Drill is useful for already powerful characters, which in many cases will be heroes or national units. Almost all players will favour Combat upgrades first, but once maxed Dril is the next option for a broad improvement in combat strength.

To just double the bonus without looking at likely impact could open up problems - would powerful units and heroes be able to kill countless weaker units at will? Back at Civ 1 top units could just go around killing everything (who remembers the joy of being the first to get a battleship?). The hit point system evened that out - strong units can get taken down by hordes. Having 9 first strikes could make one unit rampages a bit too easy.

We have to remember that the increasing of other combat bonuses while retaining the same number of hitpoints automatically makes getting first strikes more powerful. It just becomes less attractive as a beginning option.

EverNoob · Dec 16, 2007

TheJopa said:
Maybe remove drill IV and boost Drill 1-3 so you only need 3 promotions to reach same amount of 1st strikes?

I agree, seems to be the most reasonable way to fix it. Right now the problem is that drill 1-2 don't give enough first strikes to make it worth it. This makes you wait till drill 3 to really start benefiting from the promotion.

How about changing it to:
Drill I: +1 first strike, +1 first strike chance
Drill II: +2 first strike chance, -20% collateral damage
Drill III: +2 first strikes, -20% collateral damage, +10% vs mounted units

If I remember correctly this won't change the final number of bonuses. I think the final result is powerful enough, 3-6 first strikes with -40% collateral is quite powerful on a hero/high xp unit who already has combat V. Such a unit is extremely difficult to mob with low xp units, since most of them would die before even getting a chance to damage it.

As some have already pointed out, first strikes and blitz are only useful if a unit is stronger than its opponent. Therefore I have no problem with drill being a promo to take after some combat promos. A low lvl unit wouldn't be strong enough to take advantage of first strikes and multiple attacks anyway.

3141592 · Dec 16, 2007

The fundamental problem with drill is that as it is it is useless on normal otherwise unprompted units, but if it was increased it would be overpowered on already promoted national and hero units. Reconsidering now I think the only way to even it out is to get rid of it or to have it be less effective the more powerful you are. EverNoobs idea would work okay too, it is better them what drill is currently.

Calavente · Dec 17, 2007

Roghar said:
As mentioned before, Drill is useful for already powerful characters, which in many cases will be heroes or national units. Almost all players will favour Combat upgrades first, but once maxed Dril is the next option for a broad improvement in combat strength.

AFAIK, all units are not allowed to get drillIV... only archer and siege units can, other may be allowed drill I or II but no more. So most heros (mounted, druidic, melee...Etc) won't have drill at all. (if un-classified heros can get it, maybe it shall be fixed)

IMO Heroes are not the issue to seek. archer heroes cannot have city attack, they can get drill : no issue, melee heroes can get city attack : +30% ..

drill was somehow equivalent to combat in vanilla.
in FfH drill is weakened :
-not doubled as combat line
-2 first strike is easy to get for all units (not reserved to archer line) chaos blade + treetop defense ; Drill I is weaker than 2spells !!! while combat 1 : +20% is still equal to enchanted blade.
-shadow spell blur negats all 1st strikes !!! 1 spell, lvl 1 negats 4 promo with only cost : 1 promo for 1 unit in the stack!!
- as for vanilla horse archers are immune to 1st strike

Drill should be boosted, blur reduced
blur :
- negates : ... 1- 2-3 1st strike, not all
or : 30% against archers

Drill :
-no more 1st strike chance :
Drill 1: 1 first strike chance ==> 1 1st strike
Drill 2: 1 first strike and -20% collateral damage ==> 2 1st strike + coll
Drill 3: 2 first strike chances and -20% collateral damage ==> 2 1st strike + coll
Drill 4: 2 first strikes and -20% collateral damage and +10% vs. mounted units ==> 3 1st strike + coll + vs mounted
==> not doubled but improved.

or maybe add a small withdrawall, or a small bonus defense, or make them all give +10% combat strength + the drill promo. (or +5%)

(and saying that a unit with high strength, unique, spending 9 promo shouldn't be very powerful is bizarre ... 9 promo is all free promo of a hero, and you won't give him march, heroic strengh, fear (if undead), mobility, city attack...etc you spent all your 101xp on this (combat V + drill IV). it is a huge investment !! making so that small units can't mob the hero : why not. at that time the enemy should have at least : meteors to smack you hero, or iron-upgrade units : a 10 str mace with combat V is not a "low level unit". even a 10 str mace is not a low level unit until you have the tier III heros. upgraded at 101xp.

that mean that 4 macemen can kill a hero, even with combatV, drillIV. what is the issue ?
and if you don't have mace or enough firepower when the enemy can have heros with combat V drill IV, what where you doing ?? (4 maces to kill a hero (not replacable) with 101xp or defending with 4 longbows with city defense or drill in a city is not harder than 5-6 warrior to kill orthus in early game, and orthus is callded too easy to kill !!)

DieselBiscuit · Dec 17, 2007

How about keeping the current number of first strikes but actually recalculating combat odds after the first strikes are done? This would seem a tad more realistic too, as the wind tends to leave you with a bodkin arrow sticking through your thigh.

EverNoob · Dec 17, 2007

Calavente said:
AFAIK, all units are not allowed to get drillIV... only archer and siege units can, other may be allowed drill I or II but no more. So most heros (mounted, druidic, melee...Etc) won't have drill at all. (if un-classified heros can get it, maybe it shall be fixed)

IMO Heroes are not the issue to seek. archer heroes cannot have city attack, they can get drill : no issue, melee heroes can get city attack : +30%

Currently, drill is open to other unit types as well. I'm positively sure for mounted units, but I heard it's now available to melee units too.

(and saying that a unit with high strength, unique, spending 9 promo shouldn't be very powerful is bizarre ... 9 promo is all free promo of a hero, and you won't give him march, heroic strengh, fear (if undead), mobility, city attack...etc you spent all your 101xp on this (combat V + drill IV). it is a huge investment !! making so that small units can't mob the hero : why not. at that time the enemy should have at least : meteors to smack you hero, or iron-upgrade units : a 10 str mace with combat V is not a "low level unit". even a 10 str mace is not a low level unit until you have the tier III heros. upgraded at 101xp.

that mean that 4 macemen can kill a hero, even with combatV, drillIV. what is the issue ?
and if you don't have mace or enough firepower when the enemy can have heros with combat V drill IV, what where you doing ?? (4 maces to kill a hero (not replacable) with 101xp or defending with 4 longbows with city defense or drill in a city is not harder than 5-6 warrior to kill orthus in early game, and orthus is callded too easy to kill !!)

Macemen and especially archmages come fairly late in the game. IMO having to rely on meteors to kill a hero means that first strike is powerful. Some of the heroes can be had much earlier than macemen and archmages.

For example, in my current Grigori game, my 2nd adventurer is a horseman with combat V, heroic strength II, drill IV, commando. He has 4-8 first strikes!! He chewed up city defenders like no tomorrow, rarely taking light damage (most of the time taking no damage at all) attacking cities with no siege equipment. Lets not even talk about combat outside cities

DieselBiscuit said:
How about keeping the current number of first strikes but actually recalculating combat odds after the first strikes are done? This would seem a tad more realistic too, as the wind tends to leave you with a bodkin arrow sticking through your thigh.

True, it would make it more realistic. On the other hand I think it would make it too powerful. Heroes/high xp units would be simply impossible to kill without immunity to first strike, then add blitz to that... :eek:

westamastaflash · Dec 17, 2007

How about you just kill heroes with units that have immunity to first strikes? I think the problem really lies with the very early heroes getting the drill promos. Perhaps putting the promotions further down the tech line? I.E. require military strategy for Combat IV, V, Drill III & IV?

Calavente · Dec 17, 2007

well : I forgot about grigori ...

second : having a "powerful" hero with all the promo you presented asks for some big time / farming. (you have more than 9 promo : more than 101 xp) (for my game it means easily 200th turn... as amurite I would already have govannon with fireIII, as khazad, already macemen).
maybe just the tier I heros are broken .? because having tier II-III heros with 101xp + all your boni xp means that ennemy has powerful units ) (and your hero : combat V, heroic strength II, drill IV, commando ..replace drilIV by city attack IV.... it chews defenders at the same rate, with no more issues of loosing health).

third : a unit, with fairly well base strength and 9 promotion should be hard to kill !! needing maces or archmage is normal.

maybe you should ask the question if Combat promo is not a bit too big...
think about it : promotion wise, combat 1-5 is enourmous. you get +20% per promo + healing rate for combat IV & V. don't you think the +100%str combined with an already bigger base str is what makes the combo broken??

and maybe drill III and IV (maybe even drill II) should once again be restricted to the archer and siege lines, and maybe to the recon line. instead of crippling a promo line that is already understrengthed save in combos.

and if you really want, there is an adept level spell that is called "blur, the immunity to 1st strike" that cripples the line even more but helps fighting those +100% strength monsters.

or you can negate 1strikes with having drill promotion yourself...

jenks · Dec 17, 2007

Simply not a promotion tree I ever go for, doesnt have the general power of combat / or the effectiveness of shock / garrisson trees.

i think it would easily be worth increasing to:

Drill 1 = 1 first strike,
Drill 2 = 2 first strike chances ,
Drill 3 = 1 first strike, 25% less collateral damage
Drill 4 = 1 first strike, 25% less collateral damage, +25% vs mounted, (allows Blitz promotion)

I think I would still go for city garrison for most of my bog standard archers, but might throw in the odd one with Drill if he has a couple of levels from the get go.

PapaMonkey · Dec 17, 2007

Drilling is practicing. So perhaps instead of adding more 1st strikes, maybe make them a little better in other things (except strength to differentiate it). Increase the units 1st strike (keep same), withdrawal, reduce collateral. But only a little with each.
Drill 1: FS + Reduced Collateral
Drill 2: FS + Withdrawl +10%
Drill 3: FS + Withdraw +10%
Drill 4: FS + +1 Move (synergy with blitz)

These then reflect that the unit is practicing and drilling as a 'unit'. They learn to fight together, protecting their friends (reduced collateral), cover each other during controlled retreats (withdrawals) and formation marching. The first strikes show their training and skills in handling their weapons.

xienwolf · Dec 17, 2007

I like the idea of a withdraw chance or immunity to collateral damage. Actually, immunity to all non-targeted damage (Crush and other Stack Attacks) would make this line almost priceless when you get to the later game mechanics.

EverNoob · Dec 17, 2007

I just thought it would be useful to look at combat odds and remaining hitpoints for combat I-V vs Drills. I used http://c4combat.narod.ru/c4c.htm. Attacker and defender have the same base strength. The 1st number is the odds of the attacker winning. The 2nd number is the average remaining hit points after combat, if the attacker wins.

Highlighted in green is the 95% victory point, for easy reference
Highlighted in red is the 95% victory point at which it is better to take a first strike promotion instead of a combat promotion, in terms of remaining hit points after combat.

Code:

[B][U]Current[/U][/B]         First strike promo

		      0		   Drill I         Drill II	   Drill III	   Drill IV	  Commando
C	0%	0.500	49.2	0.534	50.7	0.603	53.8	0.666	58.0	0.783	66.8	0.833	71.7
o P	20%	0.729	49.3	0.756	51.2	0.807	55.1	0.845	60.0	0.914	70.2	0.939	75.5
m r	40%	0.889	53.5	0.900	55.6	0.923	60.0	0.940	65.2	[COLOR="seagreen"]0.972[/COLOR]	75.6	[COLOR="seagreen"]0.981[/COLOR]	80.6
b o	60%	[COLOR="SeaGreen"]0.956[/COLOR]	66.3	[COLOR="seagreen"]0.964[/COLOR]	[COLOR="Red"]68.6[/COLOR]	[COLOR="seagreen"]0.977[/COLOR]	[COLOR="Red"]73.4[/COLOR]	[COLOR="seagreen"]0.983[/COLOR]	[COLOR="Red"]78.6[/COLOR]	0.994	[COLOR="Red"]87.7[/COLOR]	0.997	91.5
a m	80%	0.971	69.2	0.976	[COLOR="red"]71.5[/COLOR]	0.986	[COLOR="red"]76.1[/COLOR]	0.989	[COLOR="red"]81.1[/COLOR]	0.997	[COLOR="red"]89.6[/COLOR]	0.998	93.1
t o	100%	0.991	72.8	0.993	[COLOR="red"]75.0[/COLOR]	0.996	[COLOR="red"]79.4[/COLOR]	0.997	[COLOR="red"]84.0[/COLOR]	0.999	[COLOR="red"]91.6[/COLOR]	0.999	94.6
	120%	0.994	76.9	0.996	78.8	0.998	82.7	0.998	86.7	0.999	93.2	0.999	95.8

[B][U]Proposed[/U][/B]        First strike promo

		      0	         Drill I	   Drill II	   Drill III	  Commando
C	0%	0.500	49.2    0.603   53.8	0.666	58.0	0.783	66.8	0.833	71.7
o P	20%	0.729	49.3	0.807	55.1	0.845	60.0	0.914	70.2	0.939	75.5
m r	40%	0.889	53.5	0.923	60.0	0.940	65.2	[COLOR="seagreen"]0.972[/COLOR]	75.6	[COLOR="seagreen"]0.981[/COLOR]	80.6
b o	60%	[COLOR="SeaGreen"]0.956[/COLOR]	[COLOR="Red"]66.3[/COLOR]	[COLOR="seagreen"]0.977[/COLOR]	[COLOR="Red"]73.4[/COLOR]	[COLOR="seagreen"]0.983[/COLOR]	[COLOR="Red"]78.6[/COLOR]	0.994	[COLOR="Red"]87.7[/COLOR]	0.997	91.5
a m	80%	0.971	[COLOR="red"]69.2[/COLOR]	0.986	[COLOR="red"]76.1[/COLOR]	0.989	[COLOR="red"]81.1[/COLOR]	0.997	[COLOR="red"]89.6[/COLOR]	0.998	93.1
t o	100%	0.991	[COLOR="red"]72.8[/COLOR]	0.996	[COLOR="red"]79.4[/COLOR]	0.997	[COLOR="red"]84.0[/COLOR]	0.999	[COLOR="red"]91.6[/COLOR]	0.999	94.6
	120%	0.994	76.9	0.998	82.7	0.998	86.7	0.999	93.2	0.999	95.8

Spoiler Raw data :

I only added 120% bonus and commando to extend the table. Note that the % modifier is the +% compared to defender. Therefore a +40% is 14 attacker modified strength vs 10 defender modified strength. It would seem that the magic number is 60%. As long as one has +60% modifier, ie: attacker ~3 levels higher than defender, first strikes starts to be better than an extra combat promos, as it further increases remaining hit points after battle. Currently, there is no advantage going from no Drill to Drill I. It's only advantageous to take extra Drill promotions after Drill I. Therefore I propose to merge the current Drill I and II, into a single promotion giving 1-2 first strikes. That way, once you've reached +60% you can start benefitting from Drill right away. Hmmmm I hope my calculations were right :scan:

westamastaflash · Dec 17, 2007

EverNoob said:
I just thought it would be useful to look at combat odds and remaining hitpoints for combat I-V vs Drills. <SNIP>

This is great work evernoob. Now I know too take Drill after taking Combat III.

Drill is worthless

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