DU1 - "I didn't expect the Spanish inquisition!"

[Drugged_Unholy]

Nobody Expects the Spanish inquisition!

Variant Rules:

1.Our aim is to spread our religion to every city in the world, whilst smiting the unbelievers. This means in practice we’ll probably win by domination or conquest. Essentially every city must (a) have our religion, and (b) be part of a civ that has our religion as its state religion.

2.We must only use Organised Religion or Theocracy as our religious civics (as soon as possible we switch)

3.We cannot have open borders with any civ that does not share our religion (we cannot risk heathen ideas spreading)

4.We must be at war with at least 1 unbeliever at any one time, once we have founded our religion

Any other suggestions?

Civ: Spain (well duh!)
Map: Pangea
Difficulty: Noble
Sea Level: Normal
Era: Ancient
Speed: Normal

Here is a picture of the start:



Usual SG rules (24 got it, 48 to play)

Roster: - Closed

1. Drugged_unholy
2. Dimy
3. Thyrwyn
4. Grogs
5. Robo Mike
6. Ragnoff

 

[Dimy]

Interesting idea...count me in!

 

[Thyrwyn]

I'd like to sign up - love the start I am currently playing in Tboy1 - Crazed Atheists, so this will make a nice change.

Questions (and suggestions) about "our religion":
Q - How do we define "our religion"? Do we have to beeline for the nearest un-founded religion until we succeed at founding one? Once we found a religion what happens if we found another? Are we allowed to found another?

S - I feel that we should have to head for the nearest unfounded religion. I also feel that we should be prohibited from founding any other religions once we have embraced "our religion".

 

[Meatbuster]

I'll sign up but I prefer a later spot like 5th or 6th.

QUESTIONS!
1. Isn't always being in war bad for happiness?
2. What if (during periods of Organized Religion) some of our "allies" with open borders convert some of our cities to their religion before we noticed they've swapped to a heathen faith?
3. What is our policy on keeping foreign cities gained in war? I suppose we have to raze holy cities, then?
4. off-topic: how do you put attached images in-line with the text? (other than by hosting to imageshack? I see some of the files are on the civfanatics server...)

 

[Grogs]

Sounds like fun. I'd like to sign up.

 

[Grogs]

I'll sign up but I prefer a later spot like 5th or 6th.

QUESTIONS!
4. off-topic: how do you put attached images in-line with the text? (other than by hosting to imageshack? I see some of the files are on the civfanatics server...)

Scroll down to the bottom of this page (or any page on these forums) and you'll find a link that says 'upload files.' Click on it and you can select an image from your HD to upload. After it's complete, you'll get the directory the image was uploaded to, i.e., http: //www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/. You just paste that into your message, add your filename to the end, and enclose it with img and /img (with square brackets.)

DU: I can't see that picture very well. Are there any resources visible other than the 2 gold hills? Those 2 tiles (+7? commerce each) can double (and then some) our research output during the early game. Unfortunately, unless we've got a food resource in the city radius, we won't be able to work both and grow until we're size 5.

 

[Ragnoff]

This sounds like a very interesting game! I am currently in 2 SGs, but at least one of them seems to be winding down. I cannot play before the 15th, but it does not look like that will be a problem if you put me near the end of the roster.

As for religion, I would say flavor wise we must head for Christianity! Maybe not a B-line, allow a few worker techs, but we change to OR or Theocray immediately after attaining Christianity and ignore any religeons we happen to found on our way there.

 

[Munterpipe]

If there's room left I'd like to sign up as well. Jihad!

 

[Munterpipe]

DU: I can't see that picture very well. Are there any resources visible other than the 2 gold hills? Those 2 tiles (+7? commerce each) can double (and then some) our research output during the early game. Unfortunately, unless we've got a food resource in the city radius, we won't be able to work both and grow until we're size 5.

I have heard something about the map script always putting a food resource in production range of the spot were the settler starts, but I'm not sure if it counts for all map types.

 

[Andygal]

Just a question, how do you intend to spread religion if you cannot have open bordes with civs that don't share your relgion? In order to spread a religion effectively you need to use missionaries which require open borders.

I would play this, except I am a total n00b and would probably only end up messing it up for you.

 

[Meatbuster]

Maybe: "we can't open borders with people are of a heathen faith AND own the holy city of said faith". Well, if an ally founds a heathen religion we'll just have to make sure all of their cities are made up of our religion so they'll be hesitant to convert.

Scroll down to the bottom of this page (or any page on these forums) and you'll find a link that says 'upload files.' *snip*
DU: Are there any resources visible other than the 2 gold hills? *snip*

Thanks a lot!

So farms are in order, or are we just hoping that there's maybe a cow on the left side blackness...

Also the abundance of trees says I vote for worker-settler build. Does Izzy start with mining?

I have heard something about the map script always putting a food resource in production range of the spot were the settler starts, but I'm not sure if it counts for all map types.

I don't think Pangaea classifies for that...

 

[Grogs]

So farms are in order, or are we just hoping that there's maybe a cow on the left side blackness...

Also the abundance of trees says I vote for worker-settler build. Does Izzy start with mining?

Mysticism and Fishing. Traits are expansive and spiritual, so +2 health per city, no anarchy when changing civics, and double production speed on granaries, harbors, and temples.

 

[Ragnoff]

There might be a very good reason to move our settlers one of the two Gold Plains Hills tiles. On a Plains Hill, a center city gets two hammers instead of one. On a gold tile, the starting city square gained the next or cloying, and it may be two extra coins when this is on a hill. Thus, settling on the Hill gives us a defensive bonus and a 2/2/3 center city square rather than a 2/1/1. While this will cost us a little commerce and a few hammers in the long run (as opposed to mining both of those hills) I believe the boost to the city is worth it. Both of those tiles been adjacent to the river as well so give them a freshwater health bonus, as well as allowing a city founded at the river mouth by the sea to the North to be automatically connected to the trade network.

 

[goraemon]

Hello, newbie to the forums but can probably handle Noble just fine (I'm currently tackling Monarch). If there is an unconfirmed slot I'll join in, if not that's cool too.

 

[Jeff1787]

I would like to play...Thanks!

 

[Meatbuster]

Bumping so that it doesn't get buried in the morning (US time).

 

[friskymike]

I posted an almost identical SG a week ago and got ignored... timing eh? Think yours has a more snazzy title though I'd love to play in this game but am currently in 2 SGs and have my name down for another which may start... oh well! Good luck, I'll watch how it works out.

Anyway check out the rules, not sure which of these are appropriate for what you have in mind, or how they would work out, but its a good starting point for a discussion.

Basically, we cannot go to war until we have spread our religion to every city that will accept it (unless a brother or sister of the faith requests military assistance, we can not deny them anything), and we can never attack a city with our religion (unless it is the holy city of a infidel religion, then it must be razed!)

Specifically:
(1) We must adopt our first founded religion as the one true religion, forever.
(2) We will not be the first to research another religion as that would be heretical in our religion's view! (i.e. if we are Buddhist, we cannot research Polytheism until Hinduism is founded, Monotheism until Judaism is founded, etc.)
(3) The only allowed religious civics are those with a state religion (organised religion, theocracy, pacifism) and we must adopt one as soon as possible.
(4) We must peacefully send missionaries to as many cities as possible and encourage other civs to change to our religion.
(5) The only trading/communication we do with infidels, is requesting open borders so we can spread our religion, and asking if they will adopt our religion! We can gift things to improve relations in order to open borders at a later date if we think it will help.
(6) We can not deny our brothers and sisters of the faith ANY requests, including military assistance (unless it is against another nation of our faith, then we must be neutral).
(7) Only once peaceful methods of spreading our relgion are exhausted (i.e. every city with open borders and not theocracy has our religion), can we start wars, and of course we can never go to war with a brother or sister of the faith (if they attack us, we must only defend ourselves until peace is offered).
(8) During a war we will never attack a city where our religion is already present, unless it is the holy city of a rival religion, and then if we happen to raze the city in our missionary zeal, well these things happen...
(9) If we can force our opponent to adopt our religion in exchange for peace, we must take the peace.

 

[Drugged_Unholy]

Ok, Updated roster. Those who didn't sign up in time can always try Friskymike's similar game, and they can be reserves for this in case someone drops out.

I'll play the first 20 when I get home from work tonight, hopefully we'll have some food at the start so we can work the gold.

Isn't always being in war bad for happiness?

I guess the challenge lies in stopping it becomming a problem

What if (during periods of Organized Religion) some of our "allies" with open borders convert some of our cities to their religion before we noticed they've swapped to a heathen faith?

Our allies are only those with our religion. If they convert to heathen faiths they stop being allies as soon as we notice. Its likely that some heathen faiths may well spread anyway, but hopefully we can minimise this through limited open borders and periods of theocracy. We certainly won't be spreading the heathen faith ourselves. This leads into

how do you intend to spread religion if you cannot have open bordes with civs that don't share your relgion? In order to spread a religion effectively you need to use missionaries which require open borders.

Its a fair point. I think the best way is to modify the rule so that we can have open borders with anyone that has not founded a heathen religion, or doesn't have a heathen religion as their state religion. When it comes to spreading our religion in those civs we can't have open borders with, then missionary work will have to be through war.

What is our policy on keeping foreign cities gained in war? I suppose we have to raze holy cities, then?

We raze holy cities, we can choose to keep others (but must convert them to our religion ASAP)

Are there any resources visible other than the 2 gold hills?

I hope so!

As for religion, I would say flavor wise we must head for Christianity! Maybe not a B-line, allow a few worker techs, but we change to OR or Theocray immediately after attaining Christianity and ignore any religeons we happen to found on our way there.

I agree, although we should have a fall back plan in case we don't found it. If we do get christianity then any other religions we found shall not be spread, shrines will not be built etc. If we don't found Christianity we simply adopt one of the earlier religions we found as our state religion. If we are really unlucky and don't manage to found any of those religions then we can either try for the later ones - which makes winning a lot more difficult, or capture the holy cities of another religion and then adopt that religion as ours.

This means basically - go for Christianity, ignoring any religions we found along the way. Once Christianity gets founded we then either adopt christinaity (if we found it) or one of the earlier religions we founded. i.e no state religion, shrines, missionaries or religious buildings before Christianity.

Thus, settling on the Hill gives us a defensive bonus and a 2/2/3 center city square rather than a 2/1/1. While this will cost us a little commerce and a few hammers in the long run (as opposed to mining both of those hills) I believe the boost to the city is worth it.

Sounds a good plan!, particularly if there is no food bonus.

The only allowed religious civics are those with a state religion (organised religion, theocracy, pacifism) and we must adopt one as soon as possible.

As we are religious zealots warmongering against the heathens, pacifism is probably innappropiate.

We can not deny our brothers and sisters of the faith ANY requests, including military assistance (unless it is against another nation of our faith, then we must be neutral).

We'll adopt this one as well

 

[Thyrwyn]

Thanks for the in. As for War Weariness (WW) it is civ specific and only counts time spent outside our borders - if it gets unbearable vs any one civ, we can always sue for peace and mave on to a different infidel. If no alternative targets exist, we can just play defensively for a while. That will decrease WW.

Also, getting Drama and building Theatres will give us "culture slider happiness help", too.

 

[Grogs]

Here are some of my random thoughts about the start:

Moving the settler: I started up a few games with the same settings (noble, pangea, etc) and opened the world-builder. Every time, each civ had a food resource within working distance of the starting location. That's not absolute proof, but 35/35 (5 games) makes for pretty good anecdotal evidence, so I tend to believe what Munterpipe said. That being the case, I tend to oppose moving the settler for the following reasons:

- We'll lose a turn (obviously)
- We could actually be moving *away* from a food resource. We also don't know what we're gaining (in the south.) It could be 3 desert tiles for all we know.
- Assuming we've got a food resource, once it's developed we can work *both* gold hills at size 3. We don't want to do this during normal builds, but while building a worker/settler we can work FB + 2 gold mines. That will bring in an extra 16 cpt. A palace brings in 8 commerce and a standard city center brings in 1, so that will take us from 9 bpt of research to 25 bpt (@ 100% science.) With that sort of research output, we can research most first-teir techs in 3 turns and even an expensive tech like Iron Working in 11.

Research: I'd say we go meditation/polytheism first. Meditation would be my choice since it lets us build monasteries, but we'll need both eventually, so either one is fine and *hopefully* gets us a religion. If we lose out on say, bhuddism (meditation,) we can still probably swap over to polytheism and found hinduism.
2nd: worker tech for (hopefully) whatever food resource we've got
3rd: mining (to mine the gold tiles)
4th: Bronze Working - I count 10, maybe more forests in our starting radius, so we're going to need this one quickly. Also, most of the tiles along the river are forested, so we won't be able to build farms along the river until we can cut the trees.
5th: The Wheel - Since the river we're on seems quite short, we'll need roads to connect our new cities to the trade network.
6th and higher: Priesthood will give us access to our half-priced temples (only slightly more than an obelisk,) and pottery our half-priced granaries. Masonry->Monotheism for OR. Writing will let us have open borders, to spread the 'good news' and is also a prerequisite for theology (Theocracy.)

Wonders: The Oracle. I think a well-timed Oracle (grabbing Theology for our free tech) would do wonders. It also starts producing GPP towards a great prophet that we can use to build a shrine in our holy city. Since we'll hopefully have an early religion and very cheap temples, I don't see stonehenge as being incredibly useful to us.

Other religions: Up to you guys, but I say we try and avoid founding more than 1 of the first 3 (Bhuddism/Hinduism/Judaism.) I say this because we possibly *could* run the table on religions, and at that point the whole jihad aspect goes out of the game. After that, I wouldn't be overly concerned about it. In my experience, the guys that found the later religions are usually the same ones who found one of the earlier religions, so the late religions don't usually have much of an effect on the game.

EDIT: I reread DU's post about christianity and realized I had missed that before. I'm OK with that if everyone else is, but it probably does ratchet up the difficulty level of the game a notch. On a pangea, by the time we found Christianity, every other civ will probably already have a heathen religion, pretty much leaving only the 'conquer and convert' option. If there are 3 bhuddist civs, for example, attacking one will probably bring one or both of the others into a war against us as well.

Our UU: Our UU is the conquistador, which replaces the knight. It's probably one of the worse UU's in the game IMO. They come with guilds (just like knights) and cost 90 hammers (just like knights.) The only difference is that the conquistador gets a +50 bouns vs. melee making them less vulnerable to pikes. That should give them good survivability as pillagers/scouts in later holy wars.