Dual Topic Thread (Trees and Diplomancy)

[StormbringerGT]

So I don't have to make 2 threads I figured I'd ask to questions in one thread!

First question, I brought this up in a thread but I didnt want to derail it so I didn't press the issue. I really like the way trees covered your improvments (if you were elves), the way it looked I mean. Sitting back and admiring your forest kingdom and all your hidden improvements was nice. In the new(er) versions I noticed that it pretty much only covers mines. When you have Farms and Villages you dont even see Trees and you have to hover over the tile to see if there are trees there. One may argue that you couldnt see your improvements with the old version, but you could, you could also hover to see what it is. Just like I have to hover now to find my trees. Is there a way to change this back? Or maybe patch it in as a option you have to check? Aslo if there is a way, will it out of sync a multiplayer game?

Second question, well second even though the first consisted of a series of questions. Im probably doing something wrong, but I just can't seem to avoid war, especially with my neighbors. I understand when the Clan, Dovellio or even Hippus go to war for no reason with me. But some other civs I cannot. I usually play a neutral civ. I stay that way for a while. However the AI always makes such demands that I end up pissing them off. I don't mind sharing tech sometimes, especially to avoid war and I also understand in doing so I will piss off another empire in the process (although how they know I'm trading to their worse enemies is beyond me! Its a secret deal!) However when I refuse to help them out in war they get pissed. I don't know, I just usually have everyone declaring war on me, Elohim, Bannor, Dwarfs, doesnt matter they all would rather see me dead. Am I doing something wrong (I don't have aggressive AI checked) or are all the AIs just warmongers?

 

[Karnja]

having the same issues when played elv: you have to hover over every single tile to check if a tree / or improvment has been built because you cant see it if you dont. thats alot of micromanagement and the main reason i dont play elv anymore :/

 

[DemonMaster]

I think the anwer to the second question is power. If an AI thinks he has power of you (i.e. more "Army Power" than you). Then they declare war on you.

I usually build up a real Power Base, so various AI doesn't see me as weak, then they can hate me, go embargo on me, but they usually doesn't dare to attack me.

Another thing I do (connected to the first) is that I keep track on who becomes vassal to who and so on, who has an alliance with who, because if AI 1 is a vassal to AI 2 then they together can count up a large "Power Base" and then they see you as weak, even though the vassal and his part of this "Power Base" is on another continent and in no way a threat to you (the AI doesn't seem to care about such things, when it count how strong it is).

 

[Seven05]

The power ratings are out of whack. Think of the power graph more as a unit count than a representation of how powerful your army is. Can it be fixed? Sure, for a few quick examples you could eliminate the probability of declaring war when friendly (or pleased, whatever you like) for all but the back-stabbing leaders. To get them to prefer war with neighbors you just need to tweak the power ratios required for near war and distant war. One of the core problems is that so many diplo bonuses and penalties are enough by themselves to exceed the thresholds between the different levels (cautions, annoyed, friendly, etc). The most glaring example is how strongly 'years of peace' can affect diplomacy. The AI cares about the level but not the actual modifiers, since it's so easy to swing from one extreme to the other you can't really remove the random probabilities or the game will quickly stagnate.

The hidden forests is because the individual improvements are set to 'cut' the tree graphics using the LSystem. You can selectively remove this effect, it may even be possible to have farms where the buildings 'cut' the trees but the fields dont. This didn't happen in older versions when the ancient forests used an incomplete graphics set and were never cut like they were supposed to be, this effect can still be seen with new & burnt forests (the overlap improvements and don't 'follow' the terrain on hills). The LSystem files can be scary so good luck convincing anybody to voluntarily dive into them for a fix

 

[Mesix]

In my current game, Rhona DOW me when she was Friendly. Even with "-8 This war spoils or relationship" she is still Pleased. Seems a bit out of whack. After 10 turns of a war like that they will always agree to peace.

 

[WarKirby]

Diplomancy? Is that like a school of magic concerned with manipulating people ?

 

[Seven05]

Ok, how to solve your tree issue in one, not-so-easy step

In XML/Buildings/CIV4PlotLSystem.xml you will see a bunch of entries like this:

		<ArtRef Name="art:crop">
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">NIF:Art/Structures/Improvements/Farm/crops_w.nif::2x1</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Improvement">IMPROVEMENT_FARM</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Bonus">NO_BONUS,BONUS_ALL,!BONUS_WHEAT</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Era">ERA_ANCIENT,ERA_CLASSICAL,ERA_MEDIEVAL,ERA_COUN,ERA_ORDE</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bApplyRotation:1</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bZMode_Ground:1</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bCutTrees:1</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bForceGround:1</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bImprovementWorkedOnly:1</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bIrrigatedOnly:0</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">szBatchGroup:farm_crop</Attribute>
			<Scale>0.5</Scale>
		</ArtRef>

All you need to do is change bCutTrees:1 to bCutTrees:0 This will let both the graphic (in this case the flat crops) and trees coexist in the same spot in the LSystem grid. It might look a bit wierd though, but it will work.

Alternatively, you can get more in depth and reduce the number of graphics objects for farms and villages/towns and still let them cut the trees. You can do this by changing the 'goals' defined in the same file, such as:

		<ArtRef Name="goal:IMPROVEMENT_COTTAGE">
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bPlace:0</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">iCropArea:5</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bCutTrees:1</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">fCenterCut:50</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">fTwist:-0.7853981633</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bIsPartOfImprovement:1</Attribute>
		</ArtRef>
		<ArtRef Name="goal:IMPROVEMENT_HAMLET">
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bPlace:0</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">iCropArea:10</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bCutTrees:1</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">fCenterCut:60</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">fTwist:-0.7853981633</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bIsPartOfImprovement:1</Attribute>
		</ArtRef>
		<ArtRef Name="goal:IMPROVEMENT_VILLAGE">
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bPlace:0</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">iCropArea:15</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bCutTrees:1</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">fCenterCut:70</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">fTwist:-0.7853981633</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bIsPartOfImprovement:1</Attribute>
		</ArtRef>
		<ArtRef Name="goal:IMPROVEMENT_TOWN">
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bPlace:0</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">iCropArea:25</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">bCutTrees:1</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">fCenterCut:90</Attribute>
			<Attribute Class="Scalar">fTwist:-0.7853981633</Attribute>
				<Attribute Class="Scalar">bIsPartOfImprovement:1</Attribute>
		</ArtRef>

Here you would reduce the value for iCropArea for towns from 25 to 20 and the fCenterCut from 90 to 80, the result should leave enough room for trees around the border. You can find similar 'goal' sections for the farm improvement.

It's a big file and either change will require a lot of editing. You could simply search & replace but the result would mess up roads, rivers and cities cutting trees as well so I wouldn't recommend it. Ideally, you would only set bCutTrees:0 for improvements that can not normally be built without cutting trees first but not for bonuses. Then again, you may like the result with nothing cutting trees, I didn't as it made it hard to see roads and some improvements like camps and bonuses like fur and deer.

 

[Emptiness]

Diplomancy? Is that like a school of magic concerned with manipulating people ?

Must be a reference to the Spirit III spell Trust.

 

[Emptiness]

When you have Farms and Villages you dont even see Trees and you have to hover over the tile to see if there are trees there.

This irritates me as well, and I'd like to see changes like those mentioned by Seven05 make it into FfH2.

I don't know, I just usually have everyone declaring war on me, Elohim, Bannor, Dwarfs, doesnt matter they all would rather see me dead. Am I doing something wrong (I don't have aggressive AI checked) or are all the AIs just warmongers?

If you really want to have peace with an AI then you need to make that a priority. Make sure you are the same religion, build their favorite wonder, go to war with their enemies, give them good deals on trades, et c. If you are able to figure out early-on which AI near you will be strongest and then throw your support behind them it can be a big help. You won't have to worry about them, and they will probably help you out against the others. Unfortunately this isn't foolproof, because sometimes the AI will just declare war anyway.

I'm not much for diplomacy, and find giving concessions to AIs distasteful, so I prefer to just build good defenses and if someone declares war on me then I convert their army into xp.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

In the same way that conquering everyone at once is hard, being liked by everyone at once is hard. A more reliable diplo strategy is to pick a few more reliable and powerful ais of your alignment early to befriend, do whatever they want, and don't have anything to do with their enemies. You'll get dragged into wars, but no one says you have to send units to fight, and although you had better have units to defend, you should anyways or someone will see you as easy pickings and come after you.

 

[Verdian]

In the same way that conquering everyone at once is hard, being liked by everyone at once is hard. A more reliable diplo strategy is to pick a few more reliable and powerful ais of your alignment early to befriend, do whatever they want, and don't have anything to do with their enemies. You'll get dragged into wars, but no one says you have to send units to fight, and although you had better have units to defend, you should anyways or someone will see you as easy pickings and come after you.

I do this on occasion, especially if I only share borders with one civ (Best Friends Forever!). What really bothers me about aiding war allies is that they frequently leave you hanging and declare peace. I know the game can recognize when someone brings in a war allie. Is there a way to make it so if your friend brings you into a war, and they make peace with the enemy, you get peace with the enemy as well? I would be a lot more willing to help out if I could do that. It could either be hard coded for all wars, or be an option in the diplomacy screen when they ask you to join, ie "My sword is yours for as long as you have need of it."

 

[PekkaR]

In the same way that conquering everyone at once is hard, being liked by everyone at once is hard. ...

Thessa seems to often manage it. After converting most of the world to FoL too. Then she'll sit back and build to victory (or at least point lead) while it's a diplomatically almost suicidal to attack her.

Anyway, what I was trying to say was that converting your neighbors helps.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Verdian, yeah that would be neat. I'm almost always the last one on my side left in a battle too.

 

[Fafnir13]

On the trees issue, I can't count the number of times it's messed me up when attacking elven/conquered elven lands. Units with multiple movement points don't go as far as I though they could go and the occasional Treant popping up due to hidden ancient forests I would have normally avoided.
It's quite annoying. Here's hoping it will be fixed officially like at some point.

 

[zup]

Or perhaps the AI should keep fighting longer if they convince you to join. One thing you might want to consider too is maintaining a constant war with somebody who is far away. His war weariness should not reset between the war with his neighbors. Could seriously cripple their economy. Just make sure your war weariness does not go up. But that has never been much of an issue for me. Infernals who are never unhappy could dow the entire world permanently and just turtle. Even if they are buddies for mutual military struggle, alignment penalties at high ac and religious differences will drive them into a war they will never recover from.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Instructions on editing the LSystem

Okay, so, bCutTree:0 works on farms, mines, and some misc improvements (like forts). It fails on the cottage line. Easiest thing to do is find the sections that contain them (farm sections are huge), cut and paste them to an empty text file, find/replace, then cut and paste the modifed sections to where you got the originals from.

To make the cottage line not destroy forests, you have to do the second kind of editing. I found that reducing fCenterCut to 25 for all of them and not touching any other variables worked fine.

Here are screenshots of a maturish elven empire with these modifications made. I played a settler game as Arendel for an hour or so and took these.







Making windmills not cut = fail. Can't figure out how to do that one.

 

[Neomega]

you cant have windmills in forests anyways. And if you can in the game, You shouldn't be able to. Its not really realistic. Trees are wind breakers. You will never find a windmill farm anywhere near a forest in real life.

However, perhaps coastal tiles should give windmills an extra hammer.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Just like you shouldn't be able to fit farms, which require lots of wide open space, in forests, amirite

Elves can windmill forests because they have freaky elf voodoo forest powers that override realism. No one else can windmill forests.

 

[Neomega]

Just like you shouldn't be able to fit farms, which require lots of wide open space, in forests, amirite

Elves can windmill forests because they have freaky elf voodoo forest powers that override realism. No one else can windmill forests.

No, you can farm forests in the real world. Orchards are the first thing that springs to mind.

 

[Jules.lt]

In the same way that conquering everyone at once is hard, being liked by everyone at once is hard. A more reliable diplo strategy is to pick a few more reliable and powerful ais of your alignment early to befriend, do whatever they want, and don't have anything to do with their enemies. You'll get dragged into wars, but no one says you have to send units to fight, and although you had better have units to defend, you should anyways or someone will see you as easy pickings and come after you.

The problem is that, as has been mentionned in another thread, most civs are coded to be able to declare on you even if they're Pleased. I don't think that this should be removed altogether, as some backstabbing is quite realistic, but it should be less likely.
For instance, Elohim should NEVER declare on you if Pleased.

Or it could be an additional option: "less backstabbing", which sets war probability lower when AIs are pleased with you.

Of course, fixing the power values to take account of unit levels will solve most of the problem for many players, but the point still stands.