E3 lot of info about four leaders/factions :)

[3of5]

Doubt it. Numerically speaking, blonde blue eyed people have actually increased since the last hundred years. They're only diminishing in terms of percentages due to the exponential growth of other countries like China and India. It's not like the Greeks and Romans were all that "Aryan" looking to begin with. There are more blonde people alive today than there have ever been in human history. It's just that there are way more brown and black haired people.

I think he refers to crackpot theories about low birthrates in europe and how the original europeans are "dying out" and are "being replaced by reproduction happy immigrants" (it has actually been demonstrated that birthrates of immigrants match those of the host population in few years after immigrating, being apparently linked to socioeconomic factors). Therefore its not really founded by anything, but it sounds scary!!! Some far right parties in europe capitalize on that. Europe might reduce population density in the next 200 years (it is overpopulated anyway and reliant on raw materials from other parts of the world), but dying out is not even an issue. Its situation is more comparable to that of Japan. Europe will have to accept that there are immigrants, due to economical needs and develop a similar narrative to it like Canada und the US did over 100 years ago:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

[Krajzen]

Yeah, this is true.

Although everything would be fine if not fundamentalist muslim immigrants sorry but if guys arrive to country where they are ~1 - 5% minority and immediately require changing its law to THEIR law and start for example cutting heads => right - wing fury seems more understandable

Someone better invent solution of this problem of we will have hate - war between those two groups.

 

[3of5]

Yeah, this is true.

Although everything would be fine if not fundamentalist muslim immigrants sorry but if guys arrive to country where they are ~1 - 5% minority and immediately require changing its law to THEIR law and start for example cutting heads => right - wing fury seems more understandable

Someone better invent solution of this problem of we will have hate - war between those two groups.

especcially since 95% of this 1%-5% are quite happy to be living under secular law. Thats another reason the extremists will never succeed with their demands of sharia law. But they are very convenient as strawmen to scare the masses.

 

[m15a]

Hey, I'd be delighted to be proved wrong by a Gisele Bündchen Bolivar, but I can't shake off the feeling we'll simply get some Mexican-looking chap, or a Corazón Santiago lookalike at most. Because that's the US perception of South America, and making the Brazilian leader more unique would render it unrecognizable to the American masses, as much as making the leader of the Slavic Federation black.

You're free to have concerns about ethnicity/race representation in the game, and I understand where you're coming from more or less, but I think it might be a good idea to hold off on the topic until something that you are critical of is actually revealed. Otherwise, all you're doing is asserting your own prejudices about people from the US. I'm not saying your fears are unfounded and they might even be based on past work from Firaxis, but whether they're relevant to this game remains to be seen.

 

[Aeson]

A sample size of 8 from a population of billions ... with a poorly defined sampling method ... 200 years in the future ... is essentially meaningless. So I say give Firaxis as much leeway as possible to create interesting characters, rather than try to fit them to some modern realistic PC viewpoint. They could have gone a lot more extreme/weird and still be well within the margin of error.

I think they haven't gone far enough to make the leaders interesting. They're too realistic. I don't want realism. Realism is having to brush your teeth and wash your hands and stop at stoplights and all manner of boring things. I guess they're going to rely on Affinity progression for the interesting part of the leaders, but I think it's a mistake to not have a more interesting hook early on.

Historical leaders we have in Civ are generally interesting, because if they weren't we (the general public) wouldn't have remembered them. No one wants to play the Americans as Rutherford B Hayes. I'd give you examples from other nations/cultures, but being American that's the only one I have a shot at remembering marginally interesting characters from.

(No offense to any Hayes fans out there, it's just I honestly couldn't remember a single thing about him other than his name and that he was President. I always aced history tests and even went far in the history bees ... but that stuff just isn't worth remembering 20 years down the line for the vast majority of people.)

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please discuss the upcoming game and cease the current politics of the real world. There are other places you can discuss that, in Other Topics.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[3of5]

Moderator Action: Please discuss the upcoming game and cease the current politics of the real world. There are other places you can discuss that, in Other Topics.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

hehe, Leif seems to have "touchy topic approaching" detector. Its fine by me and i want to apologize if i went to far with my interpretation of the other comment (i am indeed a bit touchy on that subject/line of reasoning)

@Aeson: They have to walk a fine line between making leaders interesting and identifiable, be realistic for 2200 and ambivalent towards the affinities, they identified as immidiate trends in the far future. Quite an inherenet conundrum. If then the leaders seem to be more from 2050 than from 2200 (which in the case of Kavitha is true too) and not as colorful as they could possibly be that is understandable. I would not say they are boring though, since they seem to be very pronounced personalities.

 

[Inhalaattori]

I think he refers to crackpot theories about low birthrates in europe and how the original europeans are "dying out" and are "being replaced by reproduction happy immigrants" (it has actually been demonstrated that birthrates of immigrants match those of the host population in few years after immigrating, being apparently linked to socioeconomic factors). Therefore its not really founded by anything, but it sounds scary!!! Some far right parties in europe capitalize on that.

I guess I have to reply because you seem to suggest I said something I did not in fact say. I think its quite weird to think that using facts is "crackpot theory" and that its "not founded on anything". I said that IF current population trends continue Europeans will be PRACTICALLY extinct. I did not even state any kind of opinion about that.

EU has about 500 million people at the moment and birth rate is 1,5 children/woman =0,75 girl babies/woman. Notice that these numbers include all Europeans of all ethnic groups. This means that with current birth rate in about 200 years (or 7 generations) later only 13% of the original population remain. After 15 generations with current birth rates 1% of original population remains. You are also wrong about falling birthrates of immigrants as a general rule. In many cases their birth rates in Europe are even higher than what they were in their original countries. This is usually true for North-African and Turkish immigrants for example.

What I was trying to say is that it is pretty unrealistic to have "European looking" leaders in a game that happens 200 years from now. It was not political statement or anything like that.

Moderator Action: Do not ignore moderator warnings. Please drop the demographic trend discussion and return to the game itself.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[shaglio]

I think they haven't gone far enough to make the leaders interesting. They're too realistic. I don't want realism. Realism is having to brush your teeth and wash your hands and stop at stoplights and all manner of boring things.

Oh, like The Sims? I never got the appeal of those games. I play video games to escape from the boring, monotonous minutia of daily life. Why would I want to play a game that makes you go through all of that after I've done it IRL?

(No offense to any Hayes fans out there, it's just I honestly couldn't remember a single thing about him other than his name and that he was President. I always aced history tests and even went far in the history bees ... but that stuff just isn't worth remembering 20 years down the line for the vast majority of people.)

Just don't be hatin' on Martin Van Buren! Ask Kramer about the New York City gang.

 

[ptoss1]

I guess I have to reply because you seem to suggest I said something I did not in fact say. I think its quite weird to think that using facts is "crackpot theory" and that its "not founded on anything". I said that IF current population trends continue Europeans will be PRACTICALLY extinct. I did not even state any kind of opinion about that.

EU has about 500 million people at the moment and birth rate is 1,5 children/woman =0,75 girl babies/woman. Notice that these numbers include all Europeans of all ethnic groups. This means that with current birth rate in about 200 years (or 7 generations) later only 13% of the original population remain. After 15 generations with current birth rates 1% of original population remains. You are also wrong about falling birthrates of immigrants as a general rule. In many cases their birth rates in Europe are even higher than what they were in their original countries. This is usually true for North-African and Turkish immigrants for example.

What I was trying to say is that it is pretty unrealistic to have "European looking" leaders in a game that happens 200 years from now. It was not political statement or anything like that.

Yup, Europeans will all be extinct... except in eastern Europe, Australia, Canada, the US, south America, New Zealand, South Africa, and all the other colonies.

Modern Turks from Turkey don't even look any different from Europeans since they're mostly of Andalusian descent. AKA, they are European.

 

[3of5]

What I was trying to say is that it is pretty unrealistic to have "European looking" leaders in a game that happens 200 years from now. It was not political statement or anything like that.

I apologize if i interpreted too much into that (i still don't think i have though).

Still I strongly object to use linear extrapolation of current, not even historical trends to project that far into the future, especcially when that argument is used to such inhumane fear mongering (why would you make a 400 years projection if not to further accentuate your argument?). Also i see no indication the study i read (from some german ministry) would have excluded turkish or north african (read: muslim) immigrants from the statistically analyzed sample, and not mention it. If you have hard data on the subject i am prepared to consider ist, but until then i will keep my opinion.

But we have been warned by moderator action, so i will not participate in any futher discussion on this topic anyway.

Moderator Action: Don't ignore a moderator warning to get in the last word, and then invoke the mod warning. You are expected to follow mod warnings, and not to publicly discuss moderator actions.

Please, everyone, just enjoy talking about the game.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Lord Shadow]

You're free to have concerns about ethnicity/race representation in the game, and I understand where you're coming from more or less, but I think it might be a good idea to hold off on the topic until something that you are critical of is actually revealed. Otherwise, all you're doing is asserting your own prejudices about people from the US. I'm not saying your fears are unfounded and they might even be based on past work from Firaxis, but whether they're relevant to this game remains to be seen.

Yes, you're right. They deserve the benefit of the doubt, at least.

Anyway, I want to see those leaders they've barely named!

 

[CossackProblem]

I actually think ARC sounds amazing. It went from my least (by the sound of it) favourite faction to the one that, so far, interests me the most.

I'm really pumped up for Brazil though. I'm betting on a blonde, blue-eyed, Southern Brazilian (just to show they're actually drifting away from stereotypes like they did with ARC - I hope) that adopted Bolivar as a nickname for political purposes. And that Brazil's aggression/expansion was born out of the Great Mistake and Brazil's vast natural resources. Something like that.

And someone before me mentioned that every faction seems to be an utopia... or a dystopia. It'll probably be the same for Brazil:

Either it is a lawful, overly socialist, communal state, where everyone has the resources they need - or it is a ruthless, all-seeing, totalitarian state.

I'm starting to think the ia in Brazilia means something...

A guy who branded himself Bolivar bent on bringing an utopia to Brazil, naming the country BrazilIA? And that utopia is on the border of perfection and a nightmare? Something along those lines.

Uh, what stereotypes? It's sci-fi. Sci-fi is always breaking norms, that's what it does.

Having some unique gender/race combo should not be a stand-in for interesting factions and people.

 

[Lancor]

There will always be fans and haters of stereotypes. The devs can't please both. For me it's more important how well designed and written the characters are. The story and personality has to fit as well as appearance.

 

[Fabio1701]

There will always be fans and haters of stereotypes. The devs can't please both. For me it's more important how well designed and written the characters are. The story and personality has to fit as well as appearance.

yup. steroeotypes are impossible to avoid when trying to great a good story people can identify with. SMAC was full of stereotypes, and I don't remember much complaint then.

 

[3of5]

yup. steroeotypes are impossible to avoid when trying to great a good story people can identify with. SMAC was full of stereotypes, and I don't remember much complaint then.

Some stereotypes will always be there, that is because we are all just human. But good scifi will invert stereotypes and lampshade them to make the reader think about their absurdity on an individual level. Just because good scifi always challenges your assumptions and promotes critical thinking. In fact basing characterization on gender or racial stereotypes is actually viewed as bad storytelling in all genres (with the possible exception of military scifi). Reader identification is better achieved by trait similarities (i.e. the father who loves his children, the escapist that has to shut the outside world off from time to time, but manages to exert influence on the world nonethelss, the hero who has a human moment / humanizing weakness (traditionally alcoholism), the leader who thinks that what he does is necessary / for the best...). Look at how GRRM builds his characters; almost all of them have traits the readers can identify with (even Cersei, Theon and the Hound) none are flat stereotypes. I'd make an exception of the bastard of Bolton, but he draws his characterization from the discrepancy with Jon Snow, the main difference being the kind of father they aspire to be accepted of (both bringing their fathers traits, namely cruelty and vicousness or loyalty and honor to an extreme in a quest for acceptance).

 

[Mustakrakish]

Look at how GRRM builds his characters; almost all of them have traits the readers can identify with (even Cersei, Theon and the Hound) none are flat stereotypes. I'd make an exception of the bastard of Bolton, but he draws his characterization from the discrepancy with Jon Snow, the main difference being the kind of father they aspire to be accepted of (both bringing their fathers traits, namely cruelty and vicousness or loyalty and honor to an extreme in a quest for acceptance).

That is so true.

 

[Lord Shadow]

Yeah, I suppose GRRM's main feat is the portrayal of villains. He cares to give a human, even relatable side to them, when many, many authors create antagonists which are little else beyond "evil" and result in something much more akin to a caricature. But beyond "bad" guys, the good ones aren't always unambiguously good, so that's commendable as well.

 

[Cristoval]

All I'm gonna say is, I hope there are alts to these leaders.

 

[GeoModder]

Alts? Alternatives?