Early build order, first ~40 turns from 4000BC?

[Pyrrhos]

Well done Chamnix & MAS! Although I don't know how Chamnix achieved his result, it would seem that initial order warrior > worker is the most efficient one. I've fiddled about with different build orders, joining and not joining, improving tiles in a different order, but have hitherto been unable to better the result of the one where I "borrowed" workers (see above).

 

[Chamnix]

Sorry about that - I thought I wrote a little more than that...

The capital was similar to MAS' first run except I built one settler before the granary - something like warrior, warrior, settler, granary, then settler every 4 turns.

Veii built a couple workers, then a granary, then nothing but more workers.

Antium built exclusively workers.

Other towns went something like warrior, worker, barracks.

I didn't join any workers to cities.

 

[rysingsun]

but it always feels like dropping the capitol to size 1 slows growth a whole lot more. Is this a mistake?

on the assumption that shields are not an issue and that all tiles produce just two food then i would say it is best to drop the pop down to one. the food surplus at one is no different than the food surplus at size two.

however, if you have, lets say, a few cows then every time your pop grows so does your food surplus. here it is not so obvious to me, because if i have no cows outside my capital's city radius then my second city will only gain 2 fpt. if that is the case i may as well overlap the cities such that they share a cow. that costs me no loss of food and all of a sudden i can happily allow my capital to produce settlers while falling to pop one again. and i think that IS the right thing to do.

i'm following this article with much interest since this whole rex phase thing has always been remarkably complex for me to understand, considering how simple it seems like it ought to be.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Also, as this is Emperor, there's only one content citizen which means pop 2 need either an MP or 10-20% lux, pop 3 two MP or 20-30% lux etc. This means it favours keeping the captal small (ideally 2 MP and popping the settler on the turn it grows to pop 4, dropping it to pop 2).

Once you reach Republic, those MPs become a millstone round your neck so you disband them for shields unless they're veteran. OK, you lose 8 sh for each reg Warrior but you've kept the lux slider at 0% for well over 2500 years (except the occasional turn at 10%).

Btw, I've managed to get to IW in three turns but with fewer towns. Chamnix, MAS! Could you please try the "joining" ploy for your cities and see whether or not it helps you as it seems to be the best way for me? Thx!

 

[Pyrrhos]

this whole rex phase thing has always been remarkably complex for me to understand, considering how simple it seems like it ought to be.

I couldn't agree more! It actally seems to matter down to details such as which tiles you improve first and if you begin with a road or a mine (or, in the case of the cow, irrigation)

Why don't you download the save and see what you can do by 1150BC and then try and improve on that by using different strategies! Great way to understand what you're doing, right or wrong, and to improve your game. The important thing is trying to beat yourself, not anyone else. But if you think otherwise, there's always Old Troll Pyrrhos to beat. I doubt you'll do better than MAS or Chamnix.

 

[MAS]

, it would seem that initial order warrior > worker is the most efficient one.

Only because of the grass cow you will get at turn 10.

That why I complained in post #23 about your test .

In your OP you talked about a 2 sfpt start. The "usual start", as you called it.
Your test game is not an example of that.

 

[rysingsun]

Why don't you download the save and see what you can do by 1150BC...

ok, done. i'll give it a try this weekend.

 

[Pyrrhos]

In your OP you talked about a 2 sfpt start. The "usual start", as you called it.
Your test game is not an example of that.

OK, I'll get the seed no and go to the editor & see if I can amend it!

 

[Snarkhunter]

I have a closely related question I've been meaning to ask for some time about early build order. Basically, there always seems a point in the early game when I get caught "betwixt and between": I have enough regular warriors coming out of my ears, building infrastructure in the city will take a while & I'm not sure I need that particular structure for my little empire at that time anyhow--but building a settler/worker will waste 2-5 turns before the city grows enough to do it. Generally--& knowing that specific situations call for different answers--how do you handle this? Build unnecessary warriors? Build a barracks/granary & spend 12-20 turns doing it, & risk it never being especially useful to you? (Assume you have no helpful forest to chop.) Or bite the bullet, & lose 2-5 turns of shields to get the settler/worker? Or simply shrug & generate wealth until the city grows enough to do something better? Seems to me I never pick an answer that makes me happy.

kk

 

[MAS]

if you can build a unit, or even 2 or 3 units before a settler, without reducing the amount of turns it takes to complete that settler anyway, then do it! Build those reg warriors. They can at the very least be used as shield storage, to disband them later, to speed up the production of something after the revolt to your next gov.

When talking about a size 1 2 3 1 2 3 pattern:
If it will delay the settler, then just waste the shields for a turn or 2 at the end of settler production.
You should be able to calculate what you can build before the city hits size3.

In my settler pumps, I'll even reorganize the citizens every turn to make sure they collect exactly enough food to grow, and exactly enough shields to make a settler when the city hits the correct size. The tiles that the settler pump is not using for a turn or 2 will be used by nearby cities during those turns.
For example ,if I have a 4 fpt surplus, with a grass cow, then the city grows in 3 with a granary. 2 turns with 4 sfpt, and one turn the cow will help the nearby city.

 

[Chamnix]

If it doesn't have the population to build a worker, then it must be size 1. If it will have 10 shields before it reaches size 2, then it must be getting 2 spt (you should never be working any tiles that provide less than 2 fpt at that stage).

So you have a city that produces 2 spt at size 1 in despotism - I would most likely build a barracks (with obvious exceptions like if you are on an island by yourself). No matter what type of game you are playing, you will probably want barracks in your most productive cities, and this seems likely to be one.

In my settler pumps, I'll even reorganize the citizens every turn to make sure they collect exactly enough food to grow, and exactly enough shields to make a settler when the city hits the correct size. The tiles that the settler pump is not using for a turn or 2 will be used by nearby cities during those turns.
For example ,if I have a 4 fpt surplus, with a grass cow, then the city grows in 3 with a granary. 2 turns with 4 sfpt, and one turn the cow will help the nearby city.

Everyone knows that kind of "tile-sharing" doesn't really help very much .

 

[Snarkhunter]

Thanx, Chamnix & MAS. This is just the sort of insight I was looking for.

kk

 

[MAS]

If it doesn't have the population to build a worker, then it must be size 1. If it will have 10 shields before it reaches size 2, then it must be getting 2 spt (you should never be working any tiles that provide less than 2 fpt at that stage).

So you have a city that produces 2 spt at size 1 in despotism - I would most likely build a barracks (with obvious exceptions like if you are on an island by yourself). No matter what type of game you are playing, you will probably want barracks in your most productive cities, and this seems likely to be one.

If I have a city that grows in 10 turns and produces 2 spt, and I intend to build a worker in it. I'll build warrior then worker.

The barracks would be bad idea:
1 It delays the worker.
2 it costs maintenance while it does nothing. (build barracks then a worker)
If I'm past my initial expansion face I don't build workers in such towns anymore. Either I build them in specialized worker pumps with a granary, build them in the corrupt towns that most definitely won't be producing 2 spt at that size, or skim them off towns that hit their growth cap every now and then.

 

[Chamnix]

I didn't mean to imply that I would build a barracks then a worker. The general situation described with "regular warriors coming out of my ears" to me means most likely one of the following:

I have a very low food start - otherwise I would have been building settlers or workers instead of all those warriors. In that case I'm going to build only a few cities myself and build military to capture more.

I have a decent start, and I have already built several cities. In that case I agree that workers would come from other towns, and the town described is going to start on military and not build a worker.

I completely agree with you that if I wanted a worker from that town, then I would not build a barracks first, but I'm thinking that by the time the barracks completes, I'll be ready to start building archers or horsemen or whatever is available (aren't "general" hypotheticals fun? ).

 

[MAS]

On the other hand, I've played a game once where I had a nice "sea of grass" start on a huge map. Lots of bonus grass too, but no cows or wheat around. And I had a ton of cities with 2 spt at size 1. and a lot of workers to build. SO I ended up with a lot of regular warriors too. More than I needed really. I remember I considered putting those shields to another use than reg warriors, I no longer remember what I ended up doing.

If I where to play such a start again, maybe I should build wealth for 5 turns? But that would be a MM nightmare, as I'd have to manually check if its time to switch to a worker.

 

[Chamnix]

In that case I would probably build some granaries in towns that wouldn't normally get them. If you are stuck building settlers and workers from 2 fpt towns, then growth every 5 turns is a lot better than growth every 10 turns.