Early war against Atilla

[Ran Cousland]

Hello, fanatics.

First of all I would like to say, that I was browsing this forum for many months, but I've decided finally to create an account and share my opinion about one game that was both funny and terrible. I'd also ask you for a forbearance. I am not a native speaker of English, so it might happen that I will make some mistakes, especially in grammar.

But what's the real point of my post?

Well, first of all, look at this picture.

Spoiler :

You might say, that there's nothing interesting or funny, just some military units from early eras. What I want to say, that this game is real nightmare (however fun in some aspects) for me. In turn 3, I've met a scout of the Huns. "Run for your life" – I've thought. And I guess that it was (or it still is) my credo for this game, as he was instantly hostle. Starting a game next to Huns in their nearby neighborhood is always pain.

In fact, my whole idea for this game ended before it could develop. I was trying to build as many units, as I only could, to prepare for mortal battle. I gave up working on settlers or rushing for it via liberty, instead of that I had to get my great general from honor.
The real fun begins around turns 60's. When I thought that I finally have serious army, I've decided to risk and go to besiege the city of Pergamon. But even if my melee units manage to get next to the city, they were getting attacked by dozens of archers, horse archers and warriors. The enemy units was flooding almost every hex that I was able to see. In this game my second great general was born few turns after declaring a war. I used both of them to create a citadels (one of them was situated on the woody hill, two hexes north of Athens, and second – next two hexes, on the desert, next to incense. However, the powerful and might army of Huns was overwhelming me and I couldn't do much more about it.

Second time, I've decided to load game saved just few turns before declaration of war. This time, I thought that I would await for the Atilla's army, kill them (or perhaps some part of his army) and go for the counterattack. Defense is rather easy and settlement of my units was in 99% the same, as shown on the picture. Even if my defense is enough for now, I'd say that because of the permanent state of war and risk of total annihilation (that's why I haven't decided to settle second city anywhere) the game is lost anyway, and I called it for myself as my own Thermopiles. I know, of course, that there's no gorge in sight anywhere, but it's rather thinking about brave battles against powerful foe.

And to end this part of my post, when I'm still at classical era, some unknown civilization enters the Medieval. So, if I even survive, during my Medieval era, some guy will probably launch his spaceship to Alpha Centauri.

I don't know if I can attach a file, but if someone of You is interested in this save, I could check it out. Just some information about it: Pangaea Plus, Immortal, normal speed, large map.

And by the way, I would like to ask (I don't know if there were similar topics, sorry) what's your strategy, if you start next to Atilla? In my opinion, he's the most dangerous leader at the begging of game, especially in higher levels, so I would like to know, how do you prepare to fight against him (of course, excluding abandoning the game

Greetings, Adam.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Looks like a solid defense. Tech construction for better bows and just hold the line while expanding southward. You need another city (maybe) because you are out of supply, denoted by red (!) at top. I don't actually know what that does, but it can't be good.

Settling your capital on a hill is also a good idea on immortal. It's a good idea on any level, but especially immortal and deity.

 

[Browd]

Exceeding unit supply results in a 10% production penalty (in each city) for each unit over the limit (e.g., 40% productoin penalty for 4 units over the limit -- don't know what happens if you are 11 units over the limit ).

Also, on the Huns, remember that the battering ram is useless in the field. They can't melee attack and can be passively blocked by any unit (including workers). As long as you keep them away from your city, you can focus on killing Hun warriors and especially horse archers.

 

[JanghanHong]

Exceeding unit supply results in a 10% production penalty (in each city) for each unit over the limit (e.g., 40% productoin penalty for 4 units over the limit -- don't know what happens if you are 11 units over the limit ).

Your production goes into the negatives and units and buildings begin to disappear, time starts running backward and your capital turns into a settler before it disappears too. Very scary.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Only the fountain of aging can save you...

 

[Maxym]

Please post the save, it looks like a fun map to play out. I hope it keeps the polish names

You have an excellent army for defense, Huns will die in droves, upgrading to CB should take care of offense. If early warmongering is successful then a large puppet empire and few annexed cities will let you catch up. If someone is gonna runaway then you can always go for diplo.

 

[sufficiency]

Which difficulty is this played on? I assume Deity? If you meet an AI (Attila, in particular) by turn 3 sometimes you should just try to steal his worker. He will be coming for you eventually anyway, so might as well weaken him now.

 

[kirbdog]

Your production goes into the negatives and units and buildings begin to disappear, time starts running backward and your capital turns into a settler before it disappears too. Very scary.

 

[Ran Cousland]

Thanks for answers.

Looks like a solid defense. Tech construction for better bows and just hold the line while expanding southward. You need another city (maybe) because you are out of supply, denoted by red (!) at top. I don't actually know what that does, but it can't be good.

Settling your capital on a hill is also a good idea on immortal. It's a good idea on any level, but especially immortal and deity.

I know that I need better bows and construction is one of my priorities. And of course, settling second city is a must, however in my first attempt, I've resigned to do that, because of Huns battering rams. If I had no army to defend it, then it will fall in two hits perhaps. So that's why I thought, that I simply have to build some army.

I know of course, that Athens have some serious problem with maintaining so many units, so I will have to make a second city, and I will check it out in my next attempt to it. Otherwise - as I said - someone will launch his spaceship during my medieval era (or even earlier )

Please post the save, it looks like a fun map to play out. I hope it keeps the polish names

You have an excellent army for defense, Huns will die in droves, upgrading to CB should take care of offense. If early warmongering is successful then a large puppet empire and few annexed cities will let you catch up. If someone is gonna runaway then you can always go for diplo.

Yes, this game is really interesting. In fact, it's probably one of my favourite in long period of time, that's why I've decided to share it with you. I will of course attach the save in this post, however it might be problem for some people, as the save runs on every possible DLC's and Info Addict mod (sorry I haven't mentioned that in my first post). Early war against Atilla is always the same - the only question is, who will die? Perhaps, if he had worse lands (withouth pastures) and not such high production (he's spamming his units as crazy) then I wouldn't be set so defensively.

Which difficulty is this played on? I assume Deity? If you meet an AI (Attila, in particular) by turn 3 sometimes you should just try to steal his worker. He will be coming for you eventually anyway, so might as well weaken him now.

That's probably good idea, but when I've met his scout, I decided to quickly explore some land around of Athens to find out, if there were any ruins. In fact, I haven't found any

I will try to share my opinion with you on my next attempts against Atilla.

Edit: And the game level is Immortal.

 

[Ran Cousland]

I'm sorry that I'm posting again, but I have to say, that I've tried new strategy against Atilla.

As I wrote in my previous post, I've decided to settle new city south-west from my capital. I founded Sparta on the hill, and next to a mountain, so after few centuries it could help me in science. It also supports two cotton, that will be sold for other players. Of course, library construction was selected as first choice.

Spoiler :

After declaration of war, I've been destroyin enemy units easily, just after construction was invented, composite bowmens cleared the grounds easily, even if Atilla had swordsmans and pikemans.

Then, my first great general created a citadel in this spot:

Spoiler :

After my soldiers took their spots, the besiege has started.

Spoiler :

Finally, in 175 BC, the city of Pergamon felt under the siege of Greek's army under the leadership of general Sun Tzu.

Spoiler :

After all, the siege wasn't so difficult, however more Atilla's troops came from his capital, which is situated probably just few hexes north of conquered city.

Therefore, I'm thinking if I should accept this peace offer:

Spoiler :

I think that I will do this, and after that I will have to construct national collage to raise my science. At this time, Greek Empire is still far, far away behind other civilizations.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Hi, Ran Cousland! Welcome to CFC!

I don't have IA, so I can't open the save, but three things caught my eye right away.

First - total lack of scouting. You say it's large pangea plus? Looks like you didn't build any scouts which you simply must do. Scout should be your first build. On bigger than standard pangaea I'd suggest two scouts as first builds.
Second - I see too many melee units. You have good early UU, so maybe you don't need to stick to 1:6 ratio many find to be optimal (6 archers + 1 warrior), but 4 hoplites are an overkill. They're too weak to take cities and just cost you money. 2 hoplites plus a warrior are more than enough to deal with Attila's HA. Having 5 archers + 2 hoplites is better than having 4 archers + 4 hoplites.
Third - Athens location is not optimal. There are two riverside hills begging you to settle them yet you settle on flat tile. Do not do that! Settle on hills whenever it's only possible.

More points:

Walls are bad investment usually. Sometimes you have no choice but rush buy them or loose a city, but when you have a huge army, like in this case, the hammers/money better be spent on more useful stuff.
I'm also not sure what policies you picked. Honor is not a good tree to start with. Actually, it's a horrible tree to start with. Stick to Tradition/Liberty.

Personally I'm thrilled to start next to Attila. He's easy to take down due to BR spam, they are useless vs. human. He also tends to neglect defensive buildings, so his cities are soft. Depends on how close his capital is, I suspect you can DoW him at this very moment and capture Pergamon. If his capital is close, though, he will bring backups, in which case waiting for Construction is safer. And on this note: you have neither Construction nor Writing. What have you been teching all this time?

To summarize, you priorities should be getting scouts out, settlers out and unlocking Construction to deal with Attila. It maybe looks a little awkward right now, but it's fixable. Also don't freak out because AI beats you to new eras. It's normal. If you grow big enough and pump enough science, you'll eventually catch up.

 

[Ran Cousland]

Yes, of course that in normal situation, scout would be one of my priorities. However I wasn't sure, how large could be army of Huns. In fact, it was quite large, but good defence spots enabled to stop them, before they even reach Athens. So walls in fact, was unnecessary.

Right now, when I have some gasp of fresh air, scouting the nearby terrain is obvious. But as I said - I had some previous experiance in early war against Huns. Generally, it almost always demanded having some troops nearby. If we're talking about melee units - sure, I always could have less of them, but they were quite useful in defending archers and killing the rams. Perhaps I couldn't destroy defence of Pergamon without them. And I know, that war agains Atilla will continue, so it's better to have some swords in store.

To summary, I generally agree with your statements. What I will do in nearby future:
1. Build one or two scouts, then do the same with settlers, find good spots and make new cities, just after Athens constructs the national collage.
2. Sell as many resources as I can and build next army to quickly eliminate Atilla from his court.

And if we are talking about Athens - I agree that it's location isn't the best. However I can't do anything about it now, but it covers enough food and averege amount of production to be not-the-worst city on the Earth.

And one correction - the map is not pangea plus, but continents plus, it was my mistake in first post.

Thanks for tips.

 

[tommynt]

think u got more basic gameplay problems - and your problem with atilla arris from these - just read around these forums or possible watch some good video to get a idea of early good gameplay

 

[The Pilgrim]

What I meant, and previous posters mentioned as well, is that archery line is much more efficient than melee line on both defense and offense. And overall playing bunker can be viable sometimes, many players prefer this kind of defensive play, but so much bunker, IMO, just sets you back. I think you panicked a little when you first met Attila. I'm not sure how to overcome this other than by gaining experience though. But I noticed that this is fairly common. I had the same problem in the past. When I saw aggressive neighbor I immediately entered 'run for your life' mode. That didn't work too well for me and that doesn't work too well, as far as I can tell, for anyone else. You don't need to put all your efforts into saving your life, you need to find a healthy balance between securing your borders and expanding them. Or in other words, you don't need walls and huge army, you need small but effective army.

Also even on continents you need to kick out scout asap to meet buyer to your luxes and resources.
You're right that you can't change some of the things, but like I said, overall situation maybe not great buy decent enough to make the game winnable.

Btw, I hope you don't feel like I'm judging or criticizing, I'm just trying to help.

 

[Ran Cousland]

Of course not. I appreciate your opinion, as it's based on good intentions.

By the way, please don't think I'm inexperianced player. Normally, if that wasn't Atilla but someone else, I wouldn't have any problems with that. In my general opinion, wars against the Huns at the beggining of game is one of the most challenging task, as the next warmongering civilizations might be more dangerous in further eras, such as Rome with its legionists and ballistas.

When I'm looking back at decision, which I've took during this game, I see, that I could do "traditional" liberty way up to settler. However, even if it was mistake, this game is even more challenging than it probably would be.

It always is, when Atilla comes to game early.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[The Pilgrim]

By the way, please don't think I'm inexperianced player. Normally, if that wasn't Atilla but someone else, I wouldn't have any problems with that.

Oh, I don't think you're inexperienced at all. You play on immortal, that speaks for itself.
I just think Attila's might is overrated in general. He's dangerous vs. AI either in the hands of human player or other AI, but he's not so dangerous vs. human. Don't let BR reach your cities and you'll be fine. I'd rather deal with him as a close neighbor than with Babylon, for example, with its strong bows and strong walls or Alex, with his stupid cavalry that jumps on you out of nowhere without any notice. Speaking of which, that's also something you should look into, if you're planning to finish Attila off soon. 5MP come in handy dealing with HA.

 

[Unresolved]

The thing about Attila is that he makes a very uneven balance of battering rams to other units. Since battering rams can't attack your units, all you need to do is exert some zone of control over them and he can't touch your city. You don't even need to attack them, just get in their way while taking out his meager complementary forces.

 

[alpha00alpha]

I always aim for melee units agains The Huns, without melee, their army may as well just not exist, they won't be able to take your cities.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Aggressive neighbor you say?