[BTS] Earth18 - Persia (deity)

[civ4fanatic2]

Hey all,

I've been playing Earth18 with Persia on deity, and am struggling to effectively break into the medieval era - it's my first deity game, my best Earth18 run being Alexander on immortal. I've been following Lain's NC 186 playthrough of Cyrus , which indicates a horse archer rush.

I do SIP, settle to north (to get a source of horse) and to east. From there, I've had modest success conducting this rush against Arabia to the west. I'm wondering if they are the best target for a rush, or if the rush should be conducted differently - my economy's pretty garbage by the time I finish the rush, because spamming units means building basically no city improvements.

My tech tree path is currently: mining --> BW --> fishing --> wheel --> pottery --> AH --> archery --> writing --> horseback riding --> alphabet --> masonry --> math --> currency --> aesthetics.

I'd be most appreciative of any and all insights people might have!

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay so the AI start with warriors and only 2 basic techs. They do have 2 settlers. So it's not a full strength deity but with so much land they will get strong here with 18 AI and era bonuses. You need to take down 3-4 early if you can.

For European AI the extra settler has less value. China/India and Russia will do much better with the extra settler.

Why would you settle in place? 1W gives capital 1 extra hammer a turn. 10 turn worker.

If you attack India you face a lot of Jungle. Arabia will eventually get archers. Russians are very far north. Arabia could be an easier target with better land.

Ideally you want 2-3 cities and spam your immortals or axes? AH, TW then Mining/BW? You should be able to take down an AI if they have no metal. If your quick no archers? Not sure how quickly you could get axes to work here. Immortals/HA cross map quicker.

You will also have phants which is a huge advantage. HA rushes should be strong on this map. Just a question of where your commerce comes from.

Imperialist will be very nice with a production capital.

 

[Harv]

Hi! I'm glad to meet somebody else who loves the Earth map! I have a game going on Emperor with Egypt that I'm in the process of finishing off that will take a couple more weeks. I recently completed a Mansa game. Would you like to upload saves at 4000 BC and where you broke into the Medieval period? Do you know how to upload pictures?

NC = Noble's Club, correct? There will be differences between Noble's Club and Earth Map. One difference is the Earth18 map is known. Another is the AI starts with just a Warrior and they have no extra starting tech. So I think Deity level just affects the AI growth and production rates, and makes your research take longer.

Why do a Horse Archer Rush when you can to an Immortal Rush?

Did you SIP or did you settle to the north?
....see what Gummy wrote.

You probably want to choose between India first and Arabia first. Maybe Arabia and Egypt to claim Mesopotamia and the Nile both. Claim a city a little north of Babylon for the copper. Take out India. Go bankrupt for a while.

You posted a very long chain of techs, 14 in total. Just how many turns does it take you to accomplish all of that? What units are you building during those turns and what AI are you taking out?

 

[Gumbolt]

Downside to Egypt is deity barbs. They could be a real pain. Maybe better to let Egyptians build a few wonders and develop the cottages first.

Settling on horse here seems really strong for 2nd city. Capital at size 3-4 can do 3-4 turn immortals. Probably wipe out Arabians by 2000bc. Then think about next target.

You might be able to grab 1 hut here before the AI do. Try for the stone but hopefully AI build wonders for you.

If you do well by 2000BC you could have 4-5 cities and AI still on 3 or so. Plus lots of capture gold too. Immortal life span should be pretty good till the AI hook up metal. Not sure Hatty has any. Not sure about India.

 

[Harv]

I wonder what Raging Deity Barbs will look like? I believe you have been trying to tell me they will kill all the AI, because they start with just Warriors.


I'm not sure what you mean by "settling on here here." I might be missing pictures.

Good chance at 1 or 2 huts.

Egypt has no metal. Arabia has no metal. India has no metal until Iron. Then they have to cut though jungle.

I was going to add to what I was saying before and forgot. A lot of people starting post a save at 500 AD or so wondering what can be fixed. I did exactly this in my Mali game and I went through about 5 different plans, before finally doing something wildly different. I have been finding turn sets of about 8 or 12 have been pretty good and helpful for me. The writeup helps me think about what I am doing and come up with different ideas. A lot can change in those turns and if the update is 50 turns later, then all of those changes compound.

Are you playing at Normal speed or Epic? How many Immortals have you built by 2000 BC?

 

[Gumbolt]

It was a typo. I meant horse. I may play along but I would not play epic as that feels like cheating for me. You have so much longer to abuse immortals, HA and phants.

AI would start with more warrriors. They would also get 2nd city quicker for fog busting. For Persians they are pretty tucked away so may avoid barbs. Very likely a nearby AI builds GW so I see no point on that setting for this map.

Don't forget worker stealing too on this map.

 

[civ4fanatic2]

Aggh, I am so wrapped up in cracking this game while it's ongoing, I mis-wrote about the beginning when I wrote that I SIP - I actually settle one south, on the coast directly on the ivory.

But Gumbolt and Harv, you both raise useful points. I'll have to experiment with where I settle and see what kind of different returns I get.

I've been playing at normal speed, but don't have many immortals by 2000BC as I've been trying to beeline to HA. I'll see if AH, TW, Mining/BW and then immortal rush, with some different city placement doesn't work better!

 

[Harv]

Post a recent save or autosave and a 4000 BC save if you have time!

 

[Gumbolt]

Hbr will be slower on deity. No comnerce tiles nearby.

AH gives you sheep and cow. On an imperialist leader AH has to come first given your start

Settling on a zero food tile vs 1f tile. Think food is worth more than hammers. I guess you get happiness but not that urgent here.

Not saying 1W is best just worked with all the resources nearby. Plus kept sea resource too. 1 south loses the sheep.

Main benefit of BW is chopping. Mines are low value early on. Slavery needs decent food resources

 

[Harv]

Going back to the original question and checking out my current Earth game, I do not believe I would be much help. The year is 1080 AD and we are still attacking with Elepults.

 

[Gumbolt]

Did a quick run through to see what is possible. Couple of saves posted.

Spoiler up to 800bc :

So AH/TW/Mining/BW/fishing- pottery 2 turns off.
Worker first.
Grew to size 3 building warriors.
Settler for horse.
Stole worker from Arabia. Had a few issue with his warriors but they mostly refused combat around my capital. Stayed at war. Happy for him to spam warriors.
Built 2-3 immortals after warriors. Growing with deer meant 4hpt for warrior. Had quite a few warriors.
Attacked Arabians once i had 2-3 immortals. Used warriors too. He had 3 cities.
1 archer/2 warriors in Medina his holy city. First to fall. Baited warrior with scout which died.
Capital had 1 warrior. Final city 1 warrior and 2 workers. Lost 3 immortals and a scout for Arabia. Arabians dead 2160bc.

Settled for copper/deer. 6 cities by 2000bc.

Indians built great Wall.
Had about 6-8 immortals when I went for India. He had moved a stack of 3 warriors to his new border city. With 5 warriors i skipped this city.
Delhi when I attacked had 1 archer and a warrior. He had whipped the archer. Took no losses.
Same for Bombay. 1 archer (whipped and 2x warriors) Lost 1 immortal.
Border city whipped an archer. Took no losses over the 6 combats. All at 73-89% odds.

He has one city left and I am burning 17 gold per turn at 0% science. Ooops. Not used to deity upkeep costs. Need to steal some workers.

Need to keep the war machine rolling! Only way to pay for the upkeep!

2.8 power rating to Hatty. Leave her to build some cottages for me. My gut is I should mess up China a bit next as they will be a huge threat later.

Up to 800bc.
So I took out final Indian city and razed it. In Hindsight I probably could of kept it even though I was losing 15-16 gold a turn.

Went for China and took down 2 cities. He had metal but 2 big cities razed. 3 barb cities he would of captured razed. So somewhat nerfed now at 3 cities.

Built a new stack for Egypt. Had about 12 immortals. She has monarchy and might of been going fued. Capital and second city taken. One city left. Took alphabet for peace. Took 2 techs from China for peace. Traded around for a few other basic techs I was missing.

So Hatty has Monarchy. Russians have HBR. 450 or so gold in bank but Hatty has kindly developed lots of cottages for me. Maybe should of wiped her out but I needed alphabet. Russians biggest threat here. Greeks and Romans could be an issue as I have no real melee units yet.

Overall this does not have a deity feeling about the game. The Ai may start with 2 settlers but the lack of archers and quick access to metal really nerfs them. Arabia/India/Egypt all have no metal and no real answer to immortals which are effectively a cheap HA unit vs archers.

Pretty sure spamming immortals on this map is the right move.

 

[Gumbolt]

Not played this on yet. Europe likely next target but they are spamming meleee units. Maybe Russians if I had better troops. Immortals vs HA is a big no! China will at some point back stab me. Hoping Mongols attack them. I should probably grab the good land around India too before China take it.

 

[Gumbolt]

Played this on a bit and my diplomacy has been terrible. Declaring on AI multiple times is not a good idea. Perhaps I should of targeted Russians but I didn't.

Spoiler 920ad :

Took a while to recover my economy and get techs to take on the Ai with pults/phants.

Toku declared on me and landed two units. Eventually took peace.

China and Mongols were a nightmare. I was pretty sure Mongols were plotting on me and they can really spam units. Initially I begged gold from him to delay his DOW. Mean while I took down 2 Chinese and 1 Japan city. Then took ceasefire.

Mongols had a 13 or so strong stack which actually pretty much suicided and was no more. Phants are great vs keshik. Unfortunately he kept spamming Keshik. I managed to take down all Chinese cities on the mainland. Plus take a Mongol city. Left his poor capital be (No need to help him move it!!). Took fued and gold for peace. Mongols took China as a vassal. Longbows killed off any further efforts. Just bribed Mongols to attack Mansa so this should keep him busy. I also control the AP. Which might be useful later.

Meanwhile Russians have taken French and Germans as Vassals. French went peacefully. Russians have 20 cites as they just kept expanding. I am on 30 cities. Looks like French took down most of Romans. I took out the final Roman city (With French help) and took out the Greeks. Probably should of taken down Spain too. Could of used 1-2 axes in my stack to fend off spears. Got way too many units left.

Started a golden age and part bulbed edu for 2400 or so beakers. Will bulb lib next and then try to steal techs from Russians. Lost out on MM wonder likely to Aztecs or Americans. I think Aztecs have the production capital here

Didn't swith to HR and CS till very late due to 2 turn anarchy. Waited for philosophy. Got teh Hindu Shrine. +29 gold a turn.

Cuirs next and Russians nearly have gunpowder.

Think the game is still very winnable. If I can build 40-50 cuirs I can take down Russians. Plenty of units and great generals to upgrade units to cuirs. Fun game but a lot of effort. Only real threat now is Russia. Other AI 10 cities or less. Mansa is not a unit spammer. Need to get Russia and Mongols at war.

Played on a bit and up to 37 cuirs but Russians have 2x stacks of 20 units. Bit scary. I will likely use my catapults against them when they arrive. Plan is to take down big French cities first and take out Europe. Then head to Moscow. Still 0.8 power of Russians but they just have a lot of units. Building 6-10 units an turn and upgrading a phant each turn. Used all GG on best promo immortals. Got some pretty strong cuirs for my attack. Few turns off as cuirs are everywhere.

Mongols stack of 20 heading to Mansa. Lots of keshik and outdated units.Better Mansa than me. Next 10-15 turns will make or break my game. If the 2 stacks fall it's likely game over.

 

[Gumbolt]

It's surprising how easily you can ramp from no cuirs to 80. Taken me about 20 turn. Upgraded about 20 phants which helped. Upgraded 4 immortals with GG. Building about 5-6 cuirs a turn. Taken Rome and Berlin but need to clear the 2 big culture cities French have. Looks like Russians are only using one stack and I am pulling aside units to attack this while I take out Europe. He is not far from Military tradition so I need to get a move on.

Actually Russians had a second stack of 18. Both stacks dead with few losses. French capital and 2nd German city gone. 10 catapult and large cuirs stack outside big Russian border city. 1 small Russian city taken. Up to nearly 100 cuirs.

 

[Harv]

(I was taking a little vacation playing EU2.)
Your normal advice is to take out China first, because it has room to grow into a superpower. Europe is stuck with 6 Civs stuck at one to four cities. Do you still believe taking out China earlier is a better strategy?

I messed around with the start a little bit here and found out attacking Sally with 4 Immortals is simply not enough. So that was an experience of jumping from Emperor to Deity.

I tried a 1N start position to get the horses in the first ring of expansion. It costs some turns of getting the worker and 1N misses on a city square with 2 hammers. I can try to optimize getting the horses earlier. It looks like the first target (Asoka or Sally) will require about 10 Immortals and that justifies a second city. You put your second city on the horses. If I do 1N, then I will put it on Nineveh, claiming the Copper for when we need it.

Settings - You have No Tribal Villages set, but the map comes with Tribal Villages. Do you take them out? If you do, that's a trip into WB. Do you also change the starting techs of the AI?

 

[Gumbolt]

Not touched world builder. At best i got some gold from huts.

I really doubt you need 11 immortals to start the attack. Few warriors and 4-5 or so immortals? Maybe i got lucky? Final city had warriors defending?

I think in terms of China box in is fine. Take the land to south of him. I played terribly in that respect as i took full brunt of mongols. They were both in war mode and i was 100,% target. Problem with leaving Europe is they will vassal. However they do have few cities.

If you target Russia there is a lot of poor land above the horse.

I settled on horse to save 6 worker turns. Big difference.

 

[Gumbolt]

Up to 1170ad.

Spoiler 1170ad :

So been a tough old fight with Russia.
I took liberalism and grabbed MT. I have stolen quite a few techs including chemistry and MScience. I had 3 great spies overall and used 2 on Russians.

I have taken 5 Russian cities. One had 14+ defenders and I failed to take it first turn. Had 1 defender left. He had a spare 10 or so units to move back into it. I had quite lot of spread out units after taking out the major French and German cities.

I have lost 42 cuirs and 10 catapults. so far. Russian power ratio has gone from 1 to 2. So halved their power rating?

They have lost:
38 knights
21 Longbows
24 Mace
16 Pike
12 Xbow
8 catapiults
8 Muskets
4 Musketeers
4 treb
3 swords
3 Horse Archer
2 axe
2 War elephants
145 losses to the AI.

3-1 but 40-50+ or so of these losses came from me attacking stacks in the open field. Their pike and musketeers were very annoying in the cities.

Taken 9 cities overall. Catapults I lost all suicided one city. They were costing me upkeep anyway. 145 killed vs 52 losses. Not great really. Currently got about 99 cuirs. I could whip more. Maybe should of kept 1 big stack. Taking out German and French cities slowed my approach to his capital

I have about 40 cuirs units to west of Russia but split up. A further 32 or so to south but again split up. I will likely send 20 from South towards the Western Units and defend the middle land.

I likely need a ceasefire to heal up.

Mongols have reached Mansa. They have a second stack not too far off too. Not sure if first stack will take the city. They have waited to bombard. If they take 1-2 cities bet he capitulates. Useful distraction for Mongols.

Overall Russia has no real stack now just a lot of cities and grenadiers too. On average 3-5 defenders in each city. I have full visibility of all his cities. Japan could be a threat as in war mode. With 39 cities I should be winning this now.

 

[Gumbolt]

Still playing this on.Just not as frequent as I might of liked.

Up to 1350ad.

Spoiler up to 1220ad. :

Took a turn ceasefire. Focused most troops towards on cities surrounding Moscow. Declared on Russia next turn. Captured all the cities around his old capital. Grenadiers and muskets are a pain. Done a few city revolts to help. So I do need at least 2-1 ratio of troops as I will often lose first combats vs grenadiers, muskets and pikes. Kept the war machine going and managed to raze or capture all of his cities. Russians dead.

Germans similar story. Waited till Russians had 5-6 cities and focused my efforts on wiping out the Germans whilst the final Russain cities fell.

At one point some cities were suffering 12 unhappiness due to war weariness and 5-6+ due to we wish to join our motherland.Having wiped them both out this is back to 1 or so per city. Lost a load of units.

Mansa lost a city to Mongols who now sit next to his next city with 15-16 units and 1 catapult so that could take a while.

One of my border cities revolted to Japan. Tad annoying but it was surrounded in culture.He is in war mode and has grenadiers too.

Met the Aztecs who have 18 cities and 2 vassals already. Could be an issue their power rating is higher than mine and I have no navy right now.

Over 50 cities now. French city needs to fall as it has surroundede Rome in culture.

Will likely wipe out Spanish next as their 2 cities could vassal at some point. I am trying to avoid taking on vassals so I can max out on land.

Could join Mongols war vs Mansa. Bit worried Toku will land a stack but he may be going for Americans? Not sure as he has been in war mode before he met them so target is probably me? I think Cuirs use is running out given how many grenadiers are about.

Playing 20-30 turns has taken ages.

Do I need Aztec land to win? So far I am still only at 25% of land.Need 51% to win.

Up to 1420ad.
Japan has built a privateer that is a bit annoying as I lack astronomy still.
Spain dead. Mongols heading towards Mansa and I have a split stack. 30+ cuirs to attack his units near Mansa. 30+ on his border near his cities. Plus more units where Russia used to be. Whipping more cuirs.

Mansa did offer to be my vassal but I think this might of slowed me down. I have full visibility on Aztecs cities now so switched EP to Toku. Getting 80 or so EP points a turn.

 

[Gumbolt]

Charming!! Mansa at war with Mongols. 40 units near his city. I join war to help him and kill off Mongol stack and his response in diplo is 'I studied on killin you. So not grateful!! Okay i am planning to attack him once Mongol troops dead but that is not the point.

Killed 14-15 wondering troops of Mongols so far. He has about 40-50 more roaming! MY 30 stack is heading towards his capital. Got 130-140 cuirs now. No idea where they all are. Never seem to have enough!

So Mongols attacked the Mansa city with 20 defenders and razed it. Had to clear up 15-16 full health mounted units and 15 or so melee, xbow, catapult/trebs/longbow that had attacked the city. In any case cleared all Mongol units. *phew* I have about 30 or so units that will attack Mansa soon. Mongols down to 5 cities.

Toku must have about 20-30 frigates and a stack loads of galleons. He has been in war mode for ages now. He has a stack on my border but only 8-10 grenadiers which won't do much in open field.

The big question is will the mainland area I am on take me to 51% of land? About 19% short. Need about 40 more cities. I can capture 20 and maybe build 20 more. In which case Toku, China, Aztecs and vassals can be ignored.

Will have to finish this another time.

Up to 1505ad.
Took final Chinesse city on mainland and he capitulated. Island cities so took it.
Mongols down to 2 cities on coast.
Mansa on 10 cities. More work required.Maybe 30 cities short albeit 10-12 in revolt. 18% off land wise. This is tasking forever.

 

[Gumbolt]

Bit of a slog but finally there. Score 301413.
All AI on land mass taken out. 2 barb cities left. Settled so many junk cities to get over line.
Toku has a huge navy but who cares!
First official win at deity. Albeit not a proper map.