Earth18Civ OCC Conquest...?

[Powerfaker]

Since someone asked and I like to share this, I'm polluting this deity/normal thread with an immortal/marathon save with Louis that I still need to finish. It's more than a year old, so don't remember everything.

It's a clean-sweeping attempt. Currently 1360AD Africa/Middle-East is all pillaged + covered with some railroad loops. Europe up to Ural mountain range too, but notice who resettles places.

A pic from cavalry cleaning up while rifles/cannons march to the cities. Obviously doing it this way definitely requires marathon.

Spoiler :

I think I stopped here because I got uncomortable with the American civs crossing the ocean. They're my trade buddies, but I should probably DoW any invader from here on. Only China requires care, so the game is pretty much won.
Conclusion => immortal certainly doable, this attempt would be too slow on normal speed

 

[krikav]

Anyone got a clear good grasp of how hammer overflow works...?
I was under the impression that you shouldn't go over the unit cost times2, say a knight you should end up with more than 180H since it costs 90H.
If I have forge, burocracy, heroic and thus have 2.75 as a multiplier, (180/2.75 = 65.5) I shouldn't go above 65-66 with my current overflow+natural hammers.

But there is some caveat about that you can overflow more or less, depending on how the cities current base hammers look.

If I now want to build up good overflow, how do I go about this efficiently?
Say I also have a bank at 190/200 so I can sugarcoat the overflow even more toward the end.
7 turns into steampower and at that turn I want to have a huge load of hammers to possibly 1-turn the 180H levee. Can it be done and how do I go about it?

 

[valergrad]

I believe you pure overflow ( without multiplicators ) can't be more than your current pure production.
For example, if your pure production is 40, and you build units with multiplicator 2 and buildings with multiplicator 3 , than you should avoid overflow more than 80 for units and 120 for buildings.
But only if units/buildings are cheaper than 80/120.

In your case, say a knight is 90 and multiplicator 2.75. And some cheap building say, barbershop, costs 80 and multiplicator is 3.
And, for example, your pure production is 40.
At first move you build knight ( 40*2.75=110 hammers), and get 20 overflow. 20/2.75 < 40, store it.
Next move you build knight 20 + 40*2.75=130 hammers, and get 40 overflow. 40/2.75 < 40, store it.
Next move you build knight 40 + 40*2.75=150 hammers, and get 60 overflow. 60/2.75 < 40, store it.
Next move you build barbershop. Now it is tricky. 60 overflow would be recalculated. There are some rounding issues that lose you hammers, [60/2.75]*3 = 63 hammers ( instead of 65)

So, you build barbershop 63 + 40*3 = 183 hammers, you get 93 overflow. 93/3 < 40, store it.

Next move you build knight. Recalculate overflow again: [93/3]*2.75= 85.
85 + 40*2.75=195 hammers, and get 105 overflow. 105/2.75 < 40, store it.
Next move you build knight. 105 + 40*2.75 = 215 hammers, and get 125 overflow. Now 125 is more than 40*2.75 and you start losing hammers.

This is just my observation, I wouldn't bet my life on it.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler Example :

Here I roll 48+18 = 66 hammers into a x-bow.
Multiplied 66*2.75 = 181.
Here I think I should not be able to overflow more than 60 / 2.75 = 22 hammers. But whats saving me is my high base production I think...?

Because I get 44 hammers overflow.

 

[Fippy]

You are overflowing 121 / 2.75, your limit here is actually 60 overflow (base cost of x-bows).
Multipliers make the numbers huge, but they are not included when calculating max. overflow.
Or i should say they are bloating up those numbers, but are not actually counted towards the hard cap.

 

[valergrad]

Yep, this works in the way I've written earlier.

18 * 2.75 + 48 * 2.75 = 181. Crossbowman is 60, so 121 is overflow. 121 < 48 * 2.75 so no overflow limit exceeded.
It shows it as 121/2.75=44.

If you get one more crossbowman you'll get:

44 * 2.75 + 48 * 2.75 = 253. 193 overflow, so this is more than 48 * 2.75, so you'll lose hammers.

But if you get something with cost 125 and multiplier 2.75, you'll not lose anything ( it will be 128 overflow that is less than 48 * 2.75 = 132 )

 

[valergrad]

You are overflowing 121 / 2.75, your limit here is actually 60 overflow (base cost of x-bows).
Multipliers make the numbers huge, but they are not included when calculating max. overflow.

I disagree
If now he will build maceman ( cost = 70 ) , what will happen next turn?
I say: only 48 hammers overflow ( or 47, i forgot if there is some rounding).
But in your logic it will be 183 / 2.75 = 66?

 

[Fippy]

Okay i believe you then, let's see what Krikav reports with a maceman test

 

[civac]

Max overflow is the maximum of item cost and (modified I think) production per turn.

So yes in almost all cases for a knight max overflow is 90 hammers. However, if the city has huge production it can be more.

 

[krikav]

Building x-bow endlessly (or workboat, or mace) yields a overflow of 48 hammers. (City base yield).
The only way I could bump this up was to give myself artillery and first set up a artillery at 140/150, then load up overflow by workboats and then to into artillery with 48+48 hammers.
The turn after this, I got 54 hammers overflow (150 / 2.75 = 148.5).

Is this correct rule correct?
"Hammer overflow is capped at either the base hammer cost of a build, (54 in the case of artillery at 2.75 multiplier, 10 in the case of workboat) OR base hammer yield of the city at that turn. Whichever is highest."

 

[krikav]

Artillery test:

Spoiler :

 

[civac]

Yes, the rule is correct.

One way to make use of it is build an overflow cascade of progressively more expensive items. The most powerful of which are the cathedral type buildings. Theoretically there are certain wonders noone wants but I suppose in SP the AI builds them.

The other is to temporarily reduce production multipliers by changing civics and cutting resources.


For instance, a cathedral built in the capital (with forge) can yield (300 / 1.25) * 2.75 = 660 hammers overflow into Taj by switching into OR + Bureaucracy and connecting marble. Without forge you can get even more but that is unrealistic.

 

[valergrad]

Is this correct rule correct?
"Hammer overflow is capped at either the base hammer cost of a build, (54 in the case of artillery at 2.75 multiplier, 10 in the case of workboat) OR base hammer yield of the city at that turn. Whichever is highest."

Yep, that is my understanding how it works.

Yes, the rule is correct.

One way to make use of it is build an overflow cascade of progressively more expensive items. The most powerful of which are the cathedral type buildings.

Yep, did that. But I never tried switching civics to reduce multiplier - it looks like doesn't worth it. But idea of cutting resources is really creative - never thought about that!

Another things is that if you build "research" this overflow stores for any number of turns you want. And in the meantime you can add there additional infinite amount of hammers by chopping.

 

[civac]

The only time I have ever done this was for the Taj. Pre-builds were an elephant, a market and a Palace. For certain wonders, it is worth it.

@krikav: You need two items in your pre-build cascade, the second of which should not be a unit. Say a knight into a bank.

 

[krikav]

I clearly need to learn more about these things!

However... for the task at hand in the game I'm currently playing I want to make sure I can 1-turn a levee in 7 turns.
So a plan might be to roll something like xbow->knight->bank ( to get up to say 150/200 or something like that.
Then xbow->knight->knight->bank and BOOM 1-turn levee?

 

[civac]

If you can reduce your production to 38 hammers you can build a bank to 198/200 in 3 turns.

Then 1 turn a knight: 48 * 2.75 = 132 => 42 hammers modified overflow => 42 / 2.75 = 15 hammers unmodified overflow.

Then finish the bank 198 + (48 + 15) * 1.75 = 308 => 108 hammers modified overflow => 61 hammers unmodified overflow

Build levee with (61 + 48) * 1,75 = 190 hammers.

You need 5 turns to prepare. If you use the courthouse 4 turns would be sufficient but the bank is more valuable.

 

[krikav]

I don't like the plan to spend 4 full turns having a bank in queue.
Have to do it differently.... Must prioritize getting as close to 1 unit per turn out as well!

 

[civac]

If you can get your production to 52 base hammers you can do it with just unit overflow.

 

[Fippy]

Stupid rule tbh glad i never knew / need this
48h after mace and 128 after Cav or whatever, oh that logic.

 

[valergrad]

Stupid rule tbh glad i never knew / need this
48h after mace and 128 after Cav or whatever, oh that logic.

Probably you've been confused there. 48 it is "pure production" , 128 is production after multiplier 2.75.