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Egypt as a full civ

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by AbsintheRed, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Chieftain

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    In this scenario the challenge would probably be reaching Tanjah and building boats to take Sicily and Cyprus in time, then...it needs to be one of those precisely balanced scenarios
     
  2. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    Well let's stick to the actual Umayyad conquests (the Abbasids didn't conquer much). Which would not include Spain or Sicily. Those were done separately and by different rulers or commanders. In other words, not as part of the Umayyad conquests.
     
  3. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Chieftain

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    Sure, makes it simpler. I guess the conquests would be the entirety of North Africa (so you have to conquer Alexandria, Tunis, Tripoli, and Tanjah) and maybe Cilicia in addition to holding onto your flip zone by the time the Cordobans spawn?
     
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  4. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    Yes, so in effect you would be in charge of actual Umayyad conquests. Southern/Central Morocco is technically not part of it though. Morocco was conquered IIRC by Berbers loyal to the Caliphate. Hence why Tariq ibn Ziyad was in Morocco in the first place.

    Sources: I can't find anything in the New Cambridge History of Islam, but the Umayyads did control parts of Northern Morocco, so I guess Tanjah would be included in this. An Alid however (called Idris) would set up the Idrisid state in 788, an independent polity (they would later become nominally loyal to the Caliphate). Morocco should really start with the Idrisids. Why start with the Almoravids?

    Also are there Kharijite rebels in the game already? Can anyone tell me? Otherwise we need to represent Kharijites in some way, given its prevalence across North Africa. Ideally this would be a separate religion, but I'm not sure if that is possible. Worst case scenario is that they are just represented by barbarians. But having a way to represent "heresies" such as Kharijites or Hussites in Bohemia would be really nice.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
  5. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    I have a sword for this knot of Gordius. There is two barb town in aquitania (i guess to represent the arabs conquest) so force islam to this towns in 650. Maybe add extra units also. In spain there is cordoba and arabs in africa.
     
  6. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    You mean in Septimania? I don't think that is the intention. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. That is a good idea though, the Cordobans should have to conquer and hold Septimania. Narbonne would be the city to represent it by.
     
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  7. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    I mean Narbone/Tolosa and Burdigala too.
     
  8. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Yeah, rebels, barbs, Fatimid spawn.
    Will work on the exact details when Egypt is introduced.
     
  9. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Not by the Cordoban spawn, that's way too few turns ingame.
    Probably somewhere around 900 would work best, right before some major revolts/barb spawns happen, and then the Fatimid civ is born.
     
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  10. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Yeah, Morocco probably won't be included at all. Do not need those additional provinces form a gameplay-perspective.
    Also, Cordoba starts with Tanjah in 711. Since reaching the whole extent of the Umayyad conquests is not really feasible before that date, early Islam in Iberia and Morocco will be mostly represented with Cordoba.
    On the other hand, it might be nice to include Sicily, Cyprus, etc. in the goal, even if it wasn't directly lead by the Umayyads.
    Apart from making the UHV a little more varied with a little naval aspect, would also be a great way to spread Islam on those islands where it was a huge problem for christians historically.

    Not yet sure exactly what rebels will be introcuded. Kharijites can be among them.
    Won't add a separate religion, probably barbs or minor nation revolt mechanics.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
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  11. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Chieftain

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    I definitely think islands should play a part in the UHV if only for variety. Trying to conquer distant islands like in the Aragonese UHV is pretty fun imo. I still think the Arab UU could be reworked to be a super fast cavalry unit with Blitz to have something capable of ridiculously fast conquest. Maybe just 4 move, then
     
  12. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    No land unit will have more than 3 moves.
    3 moves is already too much for the AI to handle.
     
  13. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    Sicily was under the Aghlabids, not Umayyads, and the Aghlabids were hereditary governors of Ifriqiya. Cyprus and Crete is fine.
     
  14. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    Bit off topic for this thread, but I like this idea. It would make the 1st Moroccan UHV less of a question of luck around whether the Cordobans / Spanish are weak enough to actually be conquered by 1227AD.
     
  15. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    But if the Aghlabids were the hereditary governors of Ifriqiya, then doesn't that mean we should also exclude Ifriqiya from the Arab UHV? Seems that would make it a bit too easy.

    Although ultimately I still think we should be looking at gameplay as much as rigid history, and the Arabs as a civ gives us wide scope to include Sicily, Cyprus and Crete in the UHV if possible and fun to do. After all, the Aghlabids were an Arab dynasty.
     
  16. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    Can the Arab UU have the mobility promotion then? So it can move quicker through deserts and hills. Or will that be too much for the AI as well?
     
  17. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    We are talking about the Umayyads. Aghlabids were appointed under the Abbasids given financial constraints. Sicily was conquered as a diversionary tactic to give something to do for the Saqaliba and 'ajnad armies, who were more interested in infighting.
     
  18. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    I think that would still run into the problems of a lack of time. If we are to simulate accurate Arab conquests then we would have only 30 turns from spawn to conquer the territories of the Umayyad Caliphate. Even with a stupidly powerful UU there would still be the issue of actually moving from Arabia to northern Iberia, without always having the benefit of roads, and also healing and crossing the Straits of Gibraltar. It would be nice, but not feasible in this mod without excessive interference / support which would really remove the challenge imo.

    That's why I think it's better to lean towards the territory of the Abbasid Caliphate and its nominal vassals. Whilst many of them had significant independence, that is arguably similar to the representations of the HRE, Kiev and other states of the time, so I think it is a valid goal. Also by including Cilicia, the Levant, Egypt, Ifriqiya, Sicily and Crete it becomes a challenging UHV but not one you need to make them stupidly powerful to achieve.
     
  19. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    I was under the impression that we were going to have 3 UHVS: 1) Umayyads, 2) Abbasids, 3) "What if" Survivalist Abbasids.
     
  20. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Actually I only said this for the Egyptian civ:
    1st UHV connected to the Fatimids
    2nd to the Ayyubids
    3rd to the Mamluks

    For Arabia we can't really tie the UHVs that clearly to ruling dynasties IMO.
    Even the proposed names were quite neutral:
    1st: Rise/Sword of Islam
    2nd: Golden Age of Islam
    3rd: whatever representing Arab dominance in the Islamic world
     
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