Egypt or Mesopotamia?

[Bast]

Which is better? All things considered

 

[Verbose]

Dunno about "better", wouldn't chose that wording, but I not entirely rationally tend to prefer Egypt.

 

[Perfection]

They don't do this Mesopotamia!

 

[puglover]

The Pharaohs of Egypt viewed themselves as gods on Earth, who had divine right to govern or oppress as they pleased.

On the other hand, Cyrus of Persia, for example, was gifted the title, "Lawgiver" by people he conquered. I for one would rather be ruled by a just judge than a "god-king"

 

[Verbose]

The Pharaohs of Egypt viewed themselves as gods on Earth, who had divine right to govern or oppress as they pleased.

No, not quite I would say. Cyrus was a good egg, by ancient monarch standards, no doubt, but the divinity of the Egyptain Pharaos, and its implication for society, was a concept a lot more complex than that.

First of all the Egyptians made a distinction between the king in office, divine, and ex office, in private, when he was just a man. So there never was any question of some blanket divine status. (The long-lived but rather murky and little known 13th dynasty might even have appointed kings, divine in office, through committee decisions, and rotated the post between eligible candidates.)

The governing principle wasn't autarchic power, but the concept of ma'at, kind of a cosmic principle of order stemming from the gods, with the kings tasked with the upholding of it. And the king was divine in his capacity as the interface between the gods and humanity. All temple priests with a responsibility for the cult of the local god were stand-ins for the king.

Jan Assman is a good read if one wants to try to work out how the Egyptians viewed things like power, political legitimacy and society. And it wasn't quite the crude version where people throw themselves in the dirt in front of divinity - in fact for modern people that's one of the attractive aspects of ancient Egypt compared to other societies contemporary to it; very little actual groveling in front of royalty, judging by the accounts of the Egyptians themselves.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I prefer the ancient Mesopotamians.

 

[aronnax]

Well an Egyptian society did outlive a Summerian, Babaloyian, Assyrian society.
Theres an seperate entire subject devoted to Egyptian artifacts but not for those for Mesopotamia.
The Eygptian world wonder still stands, wheres the Babaloyian World wonder?
Ancient Egypt had always been ruled by egyptian, for egyptian (cept the last dynasty and the Hyksos) until it fell to the Romans ending the life of Ancient Egypt
Ancient Mesopotamia regularly change hands between many people.
So I voted for Egypt

 

[TheLastOne36]

Ancient Mesopotamia shaped Modern Western Culture/Values.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Egypt was one of the very first cohesive "nation" in history. Not only that, it managed to survive one way or another, even when being ruled by foreign invaders, for three millennia.

Mesopotamia, on the other hand, was a nice mishmash of warring states, with each great Empire that arose soon falling under the heels of another.

Not that Mesopotamia wasn't great - they contributed a lot, too, but I'm generally more impressed with the fact that Egypt retained their own very distinct culture for at least three thousand years until the Romans came along.

 

[Bast]

Ancient Mesopotamia shaped Modern Western Culture/Values.

Egypt did also through Greece. Greece was heavily influenced by Egyptian culture.

 

[TheLastOne36]

also note that egypt didn't have many rivals challenging their empire, and certeinly not many that challenged their capital.

Mespotamia had many local powers such as Sumeria, Assyria, Babylonia, and many foreign powers such as Persia, Arabs, Hittites etc.

Also @ Bast, i thought it was Greece who had heavily influence in egypt?

 

[Dachs]

HAY GUIZ WAT ABOUT GREASE AND ROAM "Better" is awfully nebulous.

also note that egypt didn't have many rivals challenging their empire, and certeinly not many that challenged their capital.

Mespotamia had many local powers such as Sumeria, Assyria, Babylonia, and many foreign powers such as Persia, Arabs, Hittites etc.

Egypt had the Hyksos and, later on, were basically run over by a few of the major Mesopotamian/Iranian empires, like the Assyrians (whose invasion of Egypt was IIRC part of their collapse, as was the Chaldean rebellion) and the Achaemenids.

Also @ Bast, i thought it was Greece who had heavily influence in egypt?

It went both ways, as most cultural exchanges do.

 

[Pannonius]

Well an Egyptian society did outlive a Summerian, Babaloyian, Assyrian society.
Theres an seperate entire subject devoted to Egyptian artifacts but not for those for Mesopotamia.
The Eygptian world wonder still stands, wheres the Babaloyian World wonder?
Ancient Egypt had always been ruled by egyptian, for egyptian (cept the last dynasty and the Hyksos) until it fell to the Romans ending the life of Ancient Egypt
Ancient Mesopotamia regularly change hands between many people.
So I voted for Egypt

Wasn't Egypt conquered and ruled by Hyksos, Nubians, Macedonians etc. before Augustus came along?

 

[Traitorfish]

Mesopotamia. Egypt never had the same level of influence outside of North-Eastern Africa. By contrast, every great civilisation of Western Eurasia, ancient and modern, traces it's origins to ancient Mesopotamia.

 

[silver 2039]

Egypt wins because they had larger penises than the Mesopotamians. It says so in the Bible.

 

[aronnax]

Wasn't Egypt conquered and ruled by Hyksos, Nubians, Macedonians etc. before Augustus came along?

Ancient Egypt is commonly know from 3150BC to the Roman Conquest in 31 BC.
Of that about 363 years belonged to the Plotmatic Macedonians (who were basically assimilated into Eygptian society like Manchus to China)

About 100 years was under the Nubian-Hykos conquest
Throughout most of Persian Vassalisation, there was a native Egyptian King on the throne
About 150-300 years (just estimating) was under constant invasion and sacking by the Assyrians and Kuhorsehockeyes? and a Libyan Dynasty.
So 363+100+300+193(persian Rule) equals to 956 years.
So the Egyptians are in charge 2/3s of the time. If you were to factor in the already assimlated Plotemic Dynasty and the amount of time there was an eygptian King under Persian rule. Then its only about 500 years of actual foreign rule

 

[cubsfan6506]

I hope you realize this question is like, "What is better Britain or western europe."

 

[aronnax]

Well of course Britian!

 

[Traitorfish]

Of that about 363 years belonged to the Plotmatic Macedonians (who were basically assimilated into Eygptian society like Manchus to China)... the already assimlated Plotemic Dynasty

The Ptolemaic Egyptians were actually pretty detached from the Egyptian natives. They essentially shunted the native Egyptian nobility aside and replaced it with a Greek one which behaved more or less exactly as it had done at home. They adopted elements of Egyptian culture, but no more than the Egyptians adopted elements of Greek culture. They retained Greek religion, customs, law and art. The Greek language was the primary language of wealthy Egyptian society, used in all official histories and documents and commonly spoken throughout Lower Egypt.
In fact, the continued presence of a foreign nobility lead to many uprisings against the Ptolemies, and even attempts by dispossessed Egyptian nobles to established a new, native line of pharaohs. Only Cleopatra even bothered to learn the Egyptian language, and that was not her native or primary tongue. Her interest in native Egyptian culture and religion is something of an anomaly among the Ptolemys; the idea that she represents a significant assimilation of the Greek nobility into Egyptian culture is simply incorrect.

I hope you realize this question is like, "What is better Britain or western europe."

And I hope you realise that Mesopotamia is about a thousand miles east of Egypt...

 

[aronnax]

The Ptolemaic Egyptians were actually pretty detached from the Egyptian natives. They essentially shunted the native Egyptian nobility aside and replaced it with a Greek one which behaved more or less exactly as it had done at home. They adopted elements of Egyptian culture, but no more than the Egyptians adopted elements of Greek culture. They retained Greek religion, customs, law and art. The Greek language was the primary language of wealthy Egyptian society, used in all official histories and documents and commonly spoken throughout Lower Egypt.
In fact, the continued presence of a foreign nobility lead to many uprisings against the Ptolemies, and even attempts by dispossessed Egyptian nobles to established a new, native line of pharaohs. Only Cleopatra even bothered to learn the Egyptian language, and that was not her native or primary tongue. Her interest in native Egyptian culture and religion is something of an anomaly among the Ptolemys; the idea that she represents a significant assimilation of the Greek nobility into Egyptian culture is simply incorrect.

Okay you got me there. I only took things from Cleopatras reign. But still, thats about a good 2200 years worth of self-rule compared to Mesopotamia which is like, hectic. As soon as one empire rose and conquered the rivers, someother state does the same.

And I hope you realise that Mesopotamia is about a thousand miles east of Egypt

880 Miles from thebes to Bagdhad but whose counting...