Elven workers need better AI

[smurven]

OK, the problem as I see it is when a worker is looking at a forest tile, he thinks building a hamlet there is going to be +1 commerce, -1 hammer, so usually he doesn't bother with it unless he REALLY thinks you need the commerce. But what actually happens is you don't cut down the forest so its just +1 commerce. Also, another problem I've seen is sometimes they cut down forests despite the fact they don't need to. This is VERY annoying. When I see "Worker has cut down ancient forest for +30 hammers" Its very frustrating. And since the workers don't seem to know they don't need to cut down forests to make improvements, if i toggle the "don't cut down forests" option they just don't build on forests. Is everyone else OK with this? It seems to make elven races VERY micro intensive, or they don't use their advantage very well if you just automate. They just get lucky sometimes.

 

[Ekolite]

Errr... Are you actually playing the elves? If you captured one as a non-elf civ they can cut down forests and can't build on them, if not they actually can't. Also as far as I know building on forests still gives -1 hammers on tht tile. What version are you using?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In .30 it doesn't matter what kind of workers you use, only what civ you are playing as. Only the Ljosalfar and the Svartalfar can building forests (excluding the bug of building in a forests while on fire, and waiting for the forests to grow back), and it doesn't matter what kind of worker they use.

 

[Mesix]

Actually, building in the forests for elf (both good and bad) players does not reduce the production. On the mouse over of the tile, it says "build cottage +1 commerce -1 production). After the work is complete, the production is not actually lower. Losing the production for the forest would negate the strength of playing an elven player to build in the forests (unless he is fortifying troops in the forest). Since the mouseover info says that it will reduce production by 1, I am guessing that the AI does not evaluate the alven forest bonus correctly.

I play with the latest version: 0.30f.

 

[Aradiel]

In .30 it doesn't matter what kind of workers you use, only what civ you are playing as. Only the Ljosalfar and the Svartalfar can building forests (excluding the bug of building in a forests while on fire, and waiting for the forests to grow back), and it doesn't matter what kind of worker they use.

Not quite correct, as by 0.30f the svatalar cannot build on foresttiles yet, i hope this is fixed in the next version. However the worker ai in general is very poorly, most likely they never remove dshungle, and even forests are often ignored. The biggest problem is however to teach the ai to spread water by farms.This has the biggest impact when blight happens and the already low food production goes down.

 

[Mesix]

Not quite correct, as by 0.30f the svatalar cannot build on foresttiles yet, i hope this is fixed in the next version. However the worker ai in general is very poorly, most likely they never remove dshungle, and even forests are often ignored. The biggest problem is however to teach the ai to spread water by farms.This has the biggest impact when blight happens and the already low food production goes down.

I play version 0.30f and the Svatlar can build in forests. When you mouse over a forest, it appears that it will be chopped (bucause it says -1 production), but workers do not actually chop forests. This is true whether you build workers or capture them. I especially like to capture mud golems since they build faster.

 

[oyzar]

Automating workers sucks hard so don't do it even as non-elves. That said it would be nice if it worked as the computer are going to be using those automated workers.

 

[Aradiel]

The ai definetly needs to use more workers, and build less huts. It should be forced to build mines on hills and some more farms instead of spamming everything with huts. Also we need an automated version for adepts etc. to improve the terrain, like goto every desert tile and cast spring etc.

 

[smurven]

Not using automation isn't an option. When you have a sprawling new empire you just conquered that is mostly forest, you need a TON of workers to fix it up. If I didn't automate it I would go insane, and so would any human players I'm playing with. I'm playing the newest patch (.30f) and I'm an elf. The mouseover says +1 trade -1 hammer, but it doesnt actually remove the forest and keeps the hammer. Now the workers I assume don't know this because they automate TERRIBLY. AND its beyond me, but sometimes they STILL remove forests. Maybe I'm not paying close attention and theyre removing forests to make a workshop, I don't know. The main problem though is they don't seem to know they can build improvements without removing forests, so forests remain largely unused. This is bad for me and its bad for the computer. Unless you love micromanagement, or love playing tiny maps, its a real hassle and I actually think about starting the game over when I random elves because their "advantage" is such a pain in the ass to use.

 

[DREWid]

Not using automation isn't an option. When you have a sprawling new empire you just conquered that is mostly forest, you need a TON of workers to fix it up. If I didn't automate it I would go insane, and so would any human players I'm playing with. I'm playing the newest patch (.30f) and I'm an elf. The mouseover says +1 trade -1 hammer, but it doesnt actually remove the forest and keeps the hammer. Now the workers I assume don't know this because they automate TERRIBLY. AND its beyond me, but sometimes they STILL remove forests. Maybe I'm not paying close attention and theyre removing forests to make a workshop, I don't know. The main problem though is they don't seem to know they can build improvements without removing forests, so forests remain largely unused. This is bad for me and its bad for the computer. Unless you love micromanagement, or love playing tiny maps, its a real hassle and I actually think about starting the game over when I random elves because their "advantage" is such a pain in the ass to use.

are you sure there actually removing the forest and that your not just assuming from the tile improvement graphic?

several of the improvements still show as non-forested graphically, but if you mouse over they still say forested on the info bar and give the prod bonus. im thinking mainly of farms, in many instances i get the non-forested farm graphic in a forested tile...

 

[oyzar]

Not using automation isn't an option. When you have a sprawling new empire you just conquered that is mostly forest, you need a TON of workers to fix it up. If I didn't automate it I would go insane, and so would any human players I'm playing with. I'm playing the newest patch (.30f) and I'm an elf. The mouseover says +1 trade -1 hammer, but it doesnt actually remove the forest and keeps the hammer. Now the workers I assume don't know this because they automate TERRIBLY. AND its beyond me, but sometimes they STILL remove forests. Maybe I'm not paying close attention and theyre removing forests to make a workshop, I don't know. The main problem though is they don't seem to know they can build improvements without removing forests, so forests remain largely unused. This is bad for me and its bad for the computer. Unless you love micromanagement, or love playing tiny maps, its a real hassle and I actually think about starting the game over when I random elves because their "advantage" is such a pain in the ass to use.

I micro workers on blazing most of the time so it is certainly doable. It does increase worker effectiveness with near 50% too so it is worth considering...

 

[Blakmane]

if you micro your workers eventually you just get used to it. The automated worker AI is so incredibly poor at the moment there really is no other choice.

 

[3141592]

It has never bothered me to micromanage my workers, I don't even really consider it micromanaging.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

So long as I only have a few I'll micromanage them. But if I have a few extra and or have a war to fight I'll often leave them on their own, usually to disastrous results.

 

[xienwolf]

Just remember to use the shift key to give a series of orders and it isn't too hard to run a ton of workers manually. But gets annoying if you give a long chain only to have an enemy sit next to the worker and break it.

 

[Mesix]

The AI for automated workers isn't only for the human player that doesn't want to micromanage. AI players are hindered by their lack of sound decision making. A cripled AI makes the single player gaming experience less challeging.

 

[Caradoc]

In .30 it doesn't matter what kind of workers you use, only what civ you are playing as. Only the Ljosalfar and the Svartalfar can building forests (excluding the bug of building in a forests while on fire, and waiting for the forests to grow back), and it doesn't matter what kind of worker they use.

Is this intentional? I thought it was more fun to try to capture and enslave Elven units.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I thought it was more fun too. Especially now that you can buy slaves, some of which are elven. I really don't see why there are still elven, goblin, and Dwarvish UUs needed anymore for workers or slaves (Edit: I just realized that the separate slaves are for their respective cages, but it doesn't really explain the worker UUs)

I think it was done this way so you couldn't exploit advanced starts so much (in .25, anyone could place farms, plantations, pastures, or cottages on Forested tiles, but only if they didn't already have the Bronze working tech. Anyone with the tech, including the elves, would remove the forest when they place the improvement.)

 

[Cuteunit]

The ai definetly needs to use more workers, and build less huts. It should be forced to build mines on hills and some more farms instead of spamming everything with huts. Also we need an automated version for adepts etc. to improve the terrain, like goto every desert tile and cast spring etc.

GOD YES PLEASE! Auto spring and auto vitalize would make me a happy unit when the blight hits my 25 city meganation >_>

 

[Bluenoise]

Is this intentional? I thought it was more fun to try to capture and enslave Elven units.

I always pictured it as only elves having the skill and knowledge required to farm in forests thus it makes alot of sense that other civs cannot use elven workers to build farms in forests since they wouldn't be able to use them anyways.
I rationalise being able to capture elven cities and still use the farms as most of the population is still elven. Of course this fails when you raze the city and build your own that would now have no elven population. Idealy only as many works as correspond to the fraction of the population that is eleven should be able to use these farms. But that almost certainly impossible to code and just not worth the complication.
Enough of that rant

You know what drives me mad? Not being able to cast bloom on farms/cottages. gahhhh. can then create a fores Nothing more anoying then having to run arround razing improvments so yout and rebuild the improvement. I know that if you could cast bloom on improvements this would now make it possible for other races to get farms on forests but couldn't you just make it that if the race isn't elf then the improvements vanish?
Does the AI ever cash bloom? I can't even tell since they always fill all their tiles with improvements before the get the ability, and razing an improvement to cash bloom and build something else is something the AI is never likely going to be able to do.

Oh yeah one more thing why can't Elves build mines in forests? Mines are underground forests are above ground I don't see a conflict here.