Embaixada da Kazakhstan

[Renata]

I'll send it to sommerswerd, cc cavscout.

 

[Sprig]

Any informal reponse to this?

 

[Renata]

Just sommerswerd saying welcome back to the game to me.

 

[oyzar]

I'm back from hols. I see certain correspondence has been sent quickly before I could get back to object to it!

Will be good to chat - I'll try and get on msn later.

I suppose this is the fun of a democracy game - certain people go on hols and others left running the shop have different ideas about how things should be done!

All our main players are back from vacation now.

Looks like Kaleb is back, and he is not pleased...

 

[KingMorgan]

Bit of a cheeky one from Kaz, they didn't think that one through enough I suspect.

Good response from us, I would have advocated a harder line - even as far as suggestion they will be the target of our agression if we lose Lib. I do hope Kaleb can talk some sense into them as they would really throw the game away and any slim chance they have/had.

 

[oyzar]

Sommerswerd sier (22:37):
Well several people use this account TBH... Some are guys some are girls. I am the former, if that helps.
oyzar sier (22:37):
your msn account?
oyzar sier (22:38):
you are the same sommerswerd as on cfc right?
Sommerswerd sier (22:42):
Yes and no. It's all very mysterious frankly, and I am sworn to secrecy about the details. So I guess there is not any really satisfactory answer I can give.
oyzar sier (22:42):
O_o

This guy is weird...

We had a chat with cavscout earlier. I guess I'll post it if noone else do...

 

[Renata]

Please note SANCTA just reduced our turn timer by 24 hours, meaning if they can get MS or Kaz or Saturn to do the same, we could be left with 3 hours left at any time with no warning. Total time left right now if that does not happen is maybe 28 hours depending how the timer runs.

Please impress on Kaz that if they don't mean to scuttle our alliance entirely they need to give us edu and philo immediately and work out the details later.

If they don't, IMO screw 'em. I'd rather lose.

 

[oyzar]

Spoiler :

KingMorgan Rune wtf are you guys playing at? are you sabotaging the game for SANCTA to win?
Nancy Rune do you have any response for us at this time?
Nancy Rune morgan, settle down
KingMorgan Rune i think it's a fair question.
Nancy Rune i know you just saw the PM, but we went through this all a couple of days ago among ourselves
cavscout Rune we do have a response in the works
KingMorgan Rune ok. sorry.
Nancy Rune can you tell us unofficially what will be in it?
cavscout Rune well give me a minute to check my forum
cavscout Rune so I'm sure you guys can tell for our earlier letter that things finally came to boil our forum
cavscout Rune that letter was rushed off and we probably could have approached the whole issue in a better way so as not to alarm you guys
cavscout Rune there was a strong feeling in our forum though that you guys have been leading us on this whole time regarding SANCTA
cavscout Rune and we wanted to press you on helping us in a concrete fashion vs vague reassurances
Nancy Rune you really chose the wrong way to go about it
Nancy Rune that PM resulted in some very strong feelings
Nancy Rune oyzar's been running this team pretty much by himself for the last couple of months, until just recently, and he did not feel committing to things he could not effectively discuss with teammates. i do understand why your team is frustrated, but good lord that was harsh
cavscout Rune well there are some strong feelings on our side as well, feeling that had been building up
cavscout Rune there was one chat in particular that brought things to a boil and made us question your good faith
cavscout Rune things got heated in our forum and the result was the note that you got
Nancy Rune all right.
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF Rune which chat was it?
Nancy Rune how do you plan to move on from here?
Nancy Rune do you understand what we are requesting?
cavscout Rune if im right you guys are asking for a different proposal from us
Nancy Rune well, yes, but there are a lot of ways to be "different"
Nancy Rune we will not give up huge chunks of our own territory to redress the imbalance of power. it has to come at SANCTA's expense. and we expect the required techs for lib to be transferred this turn, so we keep any chance we have at that -- anything else is biting off your nose to spite your face
cavscout Rune well we would discontinue our relationship with you guys our of spite
cavscout Rune wouldnt i mean!
Nancy Rune heh
cavscout Rune lol
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF Rune not lol :O
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF Rune
Rune oyzar freudian slip?
Rune oyzar (jk)
cavscout Rune if we parted ways it wouldnt be because of spite, i assure you
Nancy Rune i really think the ball's in your court,
Nancy Rune i hope we've made clear what our expectations are
cavscout Rune well yeah i suppose you could say it's in our court... and we could shoot for one net or the other
cavscout Rune but on the other hand you could say that the ball is in your court
cavscout Rune because we made a concrete proposal
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF Rune but only if you ignore the fact that we sent a concrete rejection
Rune oyzar that wasn't much of a proposal
Rune oyzar and you know it
Nancy Rune brb, don't give away the farm in my absense
cavscout Rune well if our rememdy doesnt work for you guys we were hoping you would come back with something constructive that would
Nancy Rune your remedy was too harsh. we all unanimously saw it as an extremely provoking PM, and the remedy one that would hurt he pair of us collectively even more than remaining with the status quo. it was so harsh many of us guessed it was a calculated attempt to push us out of the alliance.
Nancy Rune we considered offering our own proposals in return, but ultimately though that shorter was better. the essential part is there: we work together to recover your power at sancta's expense, rather than at ours or (inevitably) at that of the alliance as a whole
Nancy Rune brb again
cavscout Rune well since we have alot of people here I will take the initiative to cut and paste the draft reply we are working on in our forum
Nancy Rune ok
cavscout Rune While we did not formally accept your initial balance of power proposal, game play from that point forward has shown tacit agreement to the substance most of the treaty (sharing of all technology, mutual tech goals, general cooperation). Our understanding was that the “balance” you were most concerned about was technological (where we have a comparative advantage) –
cavscout Rune we have always been more concerned about a “balance” with respect to growth (where you have the advantage). So far our team has been very accommodating on the technological side and continues to contribute the most to the alliance in this respect.
cavscout Rune For that reason we have decided to use our technology as a bargaining tool. We used the old terms of balance of power as it was a pre-existing framework for discussion. But that said, our proposal was very hastily written and was sent before being fully vetted.
cavscout Rune Our proposal was the gifting of cities. You offered military aid. This would be very welcome, but we would like some specifics of what you are offering.
Nancy Rune is anyone who's better at CIV willing to step in at this point?
Nancy Rune i can't discuss military issues with any confidence
Nancy Rune we keep going around in circles. attack teh cities nearest you? attack overseas with optics? use lib for this that or the other thing? wait for rifles?
Nancy Rune there are too many options
Nancy Rune what does KAZ expect? what would do it, that we can agree to and still keep our own self-respect?
oyzar Rune he is back
cavscout Rune sorry guys, lost my internet there for a sex
Nancy Rune ok
cavscout Rune sec lol
Nancy Rune what's the last thing you saw?
cavscout Rune just that you were asking for the more military experienced players to comment lol
Nancy Rune ok
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF Rune [20:04] Nancy: we keep going around in circles. attack teh cities nearest you? attack overseas with optics? use lib for this that or the other thing? wait for rifles? [20:04] Nancy: there are too many options [20:04] Nancy: what does KAZ expect? what would do it, that we can agree to and still keep our own self-respect?
Nancy Rune what he said
cavscout Rune well how soon could you take TKY?
Nancy Rune i have no idea
Nancy Rune anyone, please?
Nancy Rune discussing ...
oyzar Rune how soon we could take TKY depends on how well sancta defends it...
cavscout Rune well i sent you screens a few turns ago showing some of the forces they have in the area
cavscout Rune we would attack at the same time of course
cavscout Rune and tie up some of those troops
cavscout Rune what forces do you guys have available right now?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF Rune very few
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF Rune whatever we can whip
cavscout Rune you dont have anything on your frontier with SANCTA?
oyzar Rune hmm
oyzar Rune seems like everyone got booted from this convo by msn
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF Rune defensive units - no use in attacking
oyzar Rune i'll restart it
Nancy figures just when i find it again
Nancy meet you all over there
oyzar hmm
oyzar now it didn't work to add zpv...
Nancy ZPV just popped out of his convo with me too
oyzar oh, he went offline this time...
Nancy yeah
oyzar lets try again
Rune here!
cavscout k im here
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF hi
Nancy present
Rune but know nothing that happened the last 20 minutes
Nancy s'ok, not much has
Nancy Jon has implied he woudl like to capture TKY as soon as possible; is that accurate?
cavscout yes
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF we're trying to coordinate wrt sancta
cavscout we would like to see you DoW and cross into SANCTA land no later than 15 turns
Nancy ok sancta has a couple of longbows and a couple of spears there
Nancy what do you have to bring?
cavscout with an offensive stack worth at least 800 hammers
cavscout seize TKY, gift it to us
cavscout then gift the stack
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF lol
cavscout and we carry on the fight
oyzar you know we are imp and you guys are not right?
cavscout not right?
Nancy not, right?
oyzar not, right
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF not imp
cavscout ah yeah of course
cavscout might explain why you have twice as many cities lol
oyzar I ment the GG part of imp
cavscout oh well if you want to gift us GGs that would be good too
cavscout what...no ones laughing? lol
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF we're discussing
cavscout k
oyzar hmm
oyzar seems nancy dced without dropping from this convo so can't reinvite her...
oyzar how much are you going to have an when?
cavscout well off the top of my head im guessing we would attack with 2 elephant, 4 maces, 4 cats, a crossbow and a pike at the same time you do.
cavscout probably some knights throw in as well
cavscout more cats to follow on
oyzar in 15 turns? that together with what we will have won't be enough to do a dent against sancta(maybe about the same), much better to wait until we have large enough stacks to actually attack with...
cavscout well I understand you guys have more rexing to do and want things on your timeline
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF no, we're done rexing
Nancy i actuallydon't think that's oyzar's objection
Nancy not the motive behind his objection, i meant
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF we physically can't get an 800 hammer stack to sancta's border in 15 turns, and that won't be enough to defeat sancta's similarly-sized stack which can get there in 15 turns. We propose a later timeframe, and bigger stacks, where we actually stand a chance of success.
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF We just don't have the productive capability
cavscout ok, i will take your answer back to my team
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF we are discussing right now what a reasonable timeframe is
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF so don't go away
cavscout ok
cavscout oh while you guys are deliberating... I seem to have closed some of the other chat windows that we have jump around in and lost the transcript of the first part of our conversation... would any of you be able to help me out?
cavscout i want to make sure you are represented properly in our forum
cavscout in your own words vs, just a summary from me
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF we're thinking of a 35-40 turn timeframe, when we will attack with a big stack of knights+cannons. Although, we may request something on the order of a 5-turn delay, if we lose lib, since we will get to steel later
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF I'll have a look
Rune we would start a military build-up now
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF yes
Nancy have to go, good luck everyone
Rune the odds of success is so much greater with the extra turns
cavscout well it looks like SANCTA will win the lib race
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF I have the transcript
cavscout ah excellent
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF shall I post it here, or PM it?
cavscout might be easier to pm
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF ok
Rune can I get it too?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF csure
Rune I missed some
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sent
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF please confirm
cavscout got it, thanks
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF yw
cavscout Well i need to get going, I will post everything in my forum.
cavscout later

Here is the chat with cavscout

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Weird...

Anyhow, in the light of current turn of events, I'm posting couple of short messages I exchanged with Indiansmoke in June, before the mace debacle.

Re: be advised

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Unconquered Sun

Originally Posted by Indiansmoke
well both... I realize you might have seperate views from the majority of the team... I know I do in some issues...so I would like to hear both your opinion and Cav's opinion.

The official view of team Cav is expressed by our appointed diplomats (I don't want to go over their heads). Moreover, I'm taking a break off Cav.

My personal opinion is both Cav and Kaz don't approach the war with due caution. SANCTA have a number of ingame and out-of-game advantages. IMO we have to downsize them a bit. XP 5 units are crucial for that and Theology seems to be the best way to get them.

I am not sure what you mean by in game and out of game advantages, if you can please be more specific.

Also not sure what you mean by downsizing either...you mean take/raise some of their cities?

Regarding Theology, you need religion in cities to use it, and organized is the way to spread religion plus get the necessary infrastructure buildings like granary etc. Theology will be in next civic switch for sure if this war drags on, but my view is that right now I'd rather have faster maces than 2 promo axes.

Also there are elephants, and Sancta have ivory, these are 2 promo units with stable that are basically owning this era. 2 promo maces will lose to 2 promo elephants 1vs1....so I am not so sure you can "downsize" an empire that has elephants and catapults on a 1vs1.

As far as I'm concerned, Kaz chose to engage SANCTA solo by denying us fast 2-move all terrain units that could have reinforced them. Kaz chose to upgrade maces: and we helped as much as we could.

I don't mind contributing much larger force to war SANCTA in the future, but we need sound military tactics.

 

[Renata]

plako[/b]

As expected, Saturn intends to follow suit. oyzar, I responded to Kaleb's recent PM commenting on SANCTA's move, but I have not PMed again to add the new info about Saturn. Please do it. Unconquered Sun, please stick around and recommend strong military tactics, because I think we're going to need them.

Kaz's extortion and SANCTA/Saturn's unnecessarily punitive play have made me lose my stomach for this game again. Maybe I'll be back after the weekend if I've had time to settle down.

 

[oyzar]

hi there, sorry I was hoping to get on msn tonight but not been able. I see you've had a chat with cavscout - I hope you've worked out already that Sommer's PM is not entirely representative of our team and would not have been approved if certain people weren't away on holiday!

I'll try and get on tomorrow evening

Here is a PM from kaleb. As usual he is too busy and things are moving tooooooo slooooow. We got 10 turns, not another day.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Spoiler :

removed by request

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Spoiler :

removed by request

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Had a small chat with Kaleb (together with ZPV, Rusten and Oyzar). They (Kaz) want a formal answer (via PM) to two questions (which sounds fair):
Do we agree on a common attack of SANCTA in the very near future? ... I guess yes
What will we do with our GE?
they talk about starting a GA... this is very much questionnable:
-it's a waste as we can rush the Taj with it and it increases the cost of next GA.
-could be worth it if it allows us to speed up liberalism teching, as currently the race will be lost if SANCTA plays well (generate another GS under caste and GA).
So the question is: does a GA now can speed up lib teching? enough to delivers the free tech at least?
As the game is down currently I can't check this issue, but our feeling (from the chat) is that the answer is "no". We have to look also how many beakers we can gain by producing research everywhere, it could shorten lib teching to 3 turns...

thoughts?

Cheers,
Ras

 

[oyzar]

chat with cavscout

Spoiler :

cavscout sier (12:13):
hi there
oyzar sier (12:14):
hi
cavscout sier (12:14):
just checking in to see what you guys are teching
to avoid any duplication of effort
oyzar sier (12:14):
what are you guys teching?
cavscout sier (12:15):
we have gunpowder as a place holder right now
havent put much into it
just overflow from finishing guilds
oyzar sier (12:15):
i thought you guys were doing optics?
cavscout sier (12:16):
yeah we have that
oyzar sier (12:16):
bah
we should have gotten it already so we could have whipped a caravel...
oyzar sier (12:17):
brb
cavscout sier (12:17):
k
oyzar sier (12:20):
back
anyways we have been sinking some beakers into theology waiting to get prereqs from you guys(gunpowder and optics)
oyzar sier (12:21):
um guilds and optics
cavscout sier (12:22):
im in the gave now
so i can gift
oyzar sier (12:22):
also why didn't you wait for pp to finish your turn?
certainly that would have given you some beakers?
cavscout sier (12:23):
we are having some turn player issues
someone jumped the gun
there has been a little disarray since loosing lib
oyzar sier (12:24):
well that will likely lead to us losing circumnavigation as well...
which sucks
cavscout sier (12:24):
we are discussing delaying the attack against SANCTA since you wont have the benefit of Taj probably
oyzar sier (12:24):
how many turns would gunpowder take you guys?
cavscout sier (12:25):
we will work on tightening up our game, i didnt even noticed we hadnt gifted you optics
oyzar sier (12:25):
sucks because now we can't put beakers into any techs that matters
cavscout sier (12:25):
4 turns
cavscout sier (12:26):
well i can gift optics and guilds right now
get theo from you guys
oyzar sier (12:26):
not guilds
oh you can
nevermind
we can do gunpowder in 2 turns i guess
click on my name ingame
looks like you guys got PP already
cavscout sier (12:27):
we have like 3 different people playing our turns right now lol
kaleb is retired
oyzar sier (12:28):
kaleb quit?
or retired as a turn player?
cavscout sier (12:28):
retired as turn player do to rl
oyzar sier (12:28):
right
cavscout sier (12:29):
he is still on the boards occasionally
so i did the trade
we dont have anything into gunpowder so i can easily switch
how does you team feel about sticking to the plan to attack with cannons?
oyzar sier (12:29):
well
oyzar sier (12:30):
we need some beakers into astro before we bulb it
cavscout sier (12:31):
one idea we have discussed is delaying the attack until we can have rifles, cannon even cav
since SANCTA will likely be hard to beat in the short term
cavscout sier (12:32):
one idea is to attack saturn to remove SANCTAs source of money
oyzar sier (12:33):
at any rate that would require building up some troops, but yes attacking saturn is an alternative, and probably a good one if sancta have adequat defenses
cavscout sier (12:33):
it would be basically an indirect attack against sancta to undermine their teching by cutting off the cash
cavscout sier (12:34):
anyways this is all stuff our teams can discuss
possibly have another large chat at some point
any preferences about what we should tech now though?
oyzar sier (12:35):
there is banking i guess?
nope optimal
you could do gunpowder i guess
i dunno
oyzar sier (12:36):
5 turns until gunpowder is a long time
cavscout sier (12:36):
4 but we do have some universities coming online
oyzar sier (12:36):
well 5 until we get it
cavscout sier (12:36):
yeah
oyzar sier (12:37):
you are building universities when we are gearing up for war?
O_o
cavscout sier (12:37):
well we were getting some building out of the way before switching to theo
cavscout sier (12:38):
planning on a quick buildup to reduce SANCTA reaction time
cavscout sier (12:39):
im pretty sure we talk about spamming units after the theo switch in our large group chat
oyzar sier (12:40):
well i am rather busy with studies atm, so don't have as much time to pay attention to the game anymore
oyzar sier (12:41):
care to trade maps btw?
cavscout sier (12:41):
i understand, its the same for many on our team
cavscout sier (12:42):
traded
so what do you guys plan to tech next?
oyzar sier (12:43):
well as i said we plan to bulb astro and chem
cavscout sier (12:44):
ok...i suppose we can do gunpowder unless something seems better
i will see about reducing it to 3 turns
oyzar sier (12:45):
I'll post this chat
cavscout sier (12:45):
ok
i dont think we can do it 3 btw
oyzar sier (12:46):
if you can do it in 3 that is prolly fine and we can then do astro and chem(and then steel or something)
oyzar sier (12:50):
sucks that we will lose circumnavigation...

 

[slaze]

PMs received from Sommerswerd and sent to cav scout

Spoiler :

Greetings cav scout and team Kazakhstan,

Recently I received this PM from Sommerswerd

I did not understand you in game messages. Are you guys teching Astro and Chem?

Also PM cavscout to gift Gunpowder as I will be out of town this weekend. Or ask for a pause.

Thanks

Yes we are researching these two techs. And following that we plan to research Steel. As you may or may not know, we just received our second Great Scientist in as many turns. The first was used to complete about 60% of Astro, the second we plan to use to complete about 70% of Chemistry.

However, due to the great person tech popping preferences, if we finish Astro then Scientific Method is available to be researched and that takes preference to Chem as a GS bulb.

So right now we have 90% of Astro done (1 turn away whenever we choose) and are waiting for your completion of Gundpowder to allow us to invest a GS bulb into Chem.

So that's all my message was about (sorry for any confusion). Please gift us Gunpowder so we can carry out this plan.

Furthermore, it seems to me personally, that the alliance should also head down the Banking>RP>Rifling path. Maybe this is a path team Kazakhstan could take up. After ending the next team Cav turn, we will receive a third GP in as many turns, but due to Ohlo's wonders, it's really a crapshoot as to what type of GP this will be. Hopefully it will become a GM (about 55% chance) and if so, we plan to run a trade mission to Hazrat-e, to use the gold to accelerate us through these techs. If the GM pops, maybe you could complete a Harbor in your capital? But a turn will show whether the GM pops or we get something else.

Also in two turns we will be revolting out of caste/pac and into slavery/theocracy to strengthen us for the inevitable war with Sancta.

Good luck and long live the Alliance.

Slaze dos Cavalieros
Team Cavalieros

 

[slaze]

PM from cav scout

Re: Cavalieros Tech

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the tech update. We just got Gunpowder so we will gift it as soon as we can. We are debating whether to research Banking (towards rifles) or Divine Right (to deny SANCTA/Saturn the last religion) next.

If we get Dev Right then that gives a prereq bonus for Nationalism (not sure how many beakers you guys have towards Nat right now). But of course the sooner to rifles the better. Do you guys have any thoughts?
-----------------------------------------------------

Resources: So we are basically at our happy cap and its we could rearrange the resources trades in our alliance to be more efficient.

We would like to gift you guys Gold and Corn (the only surplus resources we have) and get Gems, Spices and Incense (when you have the 2nd plantations ready).

Right now we are trading our only furs (which we need now) to MS for their only gems. I'm guessing you guys are gifting MS your 1 surplus gems.

I vote a big no on them going for divine right. I'll take a look at the trades. we should consult MS as well. I gotta go to CPR class. I will finish the turn in ~8 hrs or so.

 

[oyzar]

We got philo already, divine rights is basically useless... There is always the GM from economics that is interesting(would be best if we could get it ofc).

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

We get Banking this turn against Chemistry for Kaz.

Cheers

 

[slaze]

PM sent to kaz and MS

Spoiler :

So how is everyone's tech progress coming along? We are able to get Steel in 5 turns, we would just need another 714 to run at 100% to do so. We can run off two more turns currently, but then we would run out of cash. If your teams don't have any pressing tech goals, can we count on you for the 700? This may be our last tech "hurrah" as afterwards it would probably more efficient for us to provide the money and team Kazakhstan do most of the teching.