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Embaixada da Kazakhstan

oyzar

Have quit civ/forums
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
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Location
Norway
Here we post all dealings with Kazakhstan.
This is our current treaty with them:

The Treaty of the True Triple Alliance (TTA):

§0. Treaty Duration and cancellation terms

* This treaty will last indefinitely, and can only be canceled by written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the treaty can not be given before the year 800 AD (turn 150).


§1. Peace and Non-Aggression

* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to take no hostile action of any kind towards members of the alliance.


§2. Open Borders

* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to open borders with each other, to allow the free passage of units and merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately, on all sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* This will be handled via a formal Open Borders agreement when possible, once Writing is commonly known within the alliance. If passage is needed before that time, it will be handled through a phony state of war.


§3. Mutual Technological Advancement

* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to form an Exclusive Tech Alliance (ETA). No member of the ETA will buy, sell or trade technologies with a civ/team outside the ETA without the consent of the other two ETA members.

* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to cooperate on the advancement of knowledge, initially to achieve the
following technology goals and trades as soon as possible:
- Team Mad Scientists to give Sailing, Iron Working and Polytheism
- Team Cavaleiros to give Meditation, Priesthood and Monarchy
- Team Kazakhstan to give Hunting, Animal Husbandry, Writing and Alphabet

* Members agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to deal with adverse events.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan at any point in time may be given in a state of emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If any member of the alliance wishes to invoke such an exception, it must notify the other two alliance members of its intent and reasons for the deviation.
* Upon completion of any technology goal by any people, the technology will be traded to the other two peoples as quickly as possible, after Alphabet is common knowledge.

* All members agree that mutual technological advancement will continue beyond the completion of the immediate technology goals, but that plans for the future technology goals are to be negotiated continuously at later points, as addendums to this treaty.
* All members agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own team.


§4. Resources

* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree that in the case that any alliance member has a spare resource to trade, they will first try to negotiate a trade with the one of the other peoples of this treaty.
Only if no such deal is possible will the people consider trading that resource to another people.


§5. Religion

* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Mad Scientists recognize the wishes and needs of the people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion, until they have managed to found one.
 
Spoiler Convo with Mars(Kazakstan ambassador) :
oyzar sier:
hi
Mars sier:
hi
oyzar sier:
who is doing embassy / diplo for you guys?
Mars sier:
I am
oyzar sier:
goodie
oyzar sier:
someone will have a lot of trouble reading over msn logs then
Mars sier:
indeed
Mars sier:
but we can make summaries with bullet points
oyzar sier:
(since i am diplo guy for us)
Mars sier:
and highlight key statements
oyzar sier:
yeah
Mars sier:
we are preparing a letter of presentation here
Mars sier:
when its rubberstamped, I can paste it here
oyzar sier:
any convo before that still counts though
Mars sier:
exactly, which is why I am polite and reserved
Mars sier:
since I know this will be posted somewhere
oyzar sier:
is it ok if i invite half a dozen idlers to our convo's from time to time?
Mars sier:
hmm
Mars sier:
need to think of that
Mars sier:
I use the same MSN for work and such
Mars sier:
and I have plenty of eager civ4 questions from you
oyzar sier:
the rest of the people aren't that eager talking about civ i think
Mars sier:
we can do it for key meetings
Mars sier:
not regular ones like this
Mars sier:
announced meetings we can do it for
oyzar sier:
so what are your thoughts about the game so far?
Mars sier:
Well, I am happy with the team, our team, first of all
Mars sier:
and it is interesting to see how the land influences choices
oyzar sier:
yeah
Mars sier:
I know you are an ace reading demographics charts
oyzar sier:
i am happy with our team, even though most are lurkers we do have an insane amount of potential, more importantly among the actually participating people we also have enough good people to go around
Mars sier:
I also think we can make this an opportunity to cooperate well
Mars sier:
as we have actually met this early
oyzar sier:
indeed
Mars sier:
so I am positive
Mars sier:
and the rest of the team is positive too
oyzar sier:
are you heading for a religion?
Mars sier:
cannot answer to that buddy
Mars sier:
we have a foreign minister too
oyzar sier:
Well it would be easier to cooperate if we knew what each other are doing.. Though that all depends on the nature of our cooperation of course, but my intelligence squad tells me you guys are in fact not heading for a religion atm
Mars sier:
I can forward to the other folks the importance to answer that
oyzar sier:
i thought you said you were the foreign minister?
Mars sier:
I am the ambassador
Mars sier:
Donsig handles overall foreign policy
Mars sier:
he is the one writing diplomatic documents
oyzar sier:
discussions will go slow if you can't decide for yourself what you can and cannot say
Mars sier:
like the one we are forwarding
Mars sier:
we just met
Mars sier:
but we will have a crisp and clear info policy very very soon
Mars sier:
I want a green light for what to say and not to say before I go ahead
Mars sier:
as we are a team
oyzar sier:
well obviously...
Mars sier:
but i posted the question
Mars sier:
but see it in a good light
Mars sier:
I will have the full authority to say things when approved
Mars sier:
and then we can have a more solid foundation
oyzar sier:
so do you have anything that you can and want to tell me?
Mars sier:
this will take a day or so
oyzar sier:
(or more like us)
Mars sier:
I think we can cooperate well together
Mars sier:
as you are a naval oriented nation
Mars sier:
and we a land oriented
Mars sier:
a very good match
Mars sier:
you being so ingenious to scout with a work boat, very clever, speaks volumes
oyzar sier:
I don't see why that matters, but our goals could be complementary and as such we might certainly want to cooperate with you(though nothing official on that yet)
Mars sier:
of course
Mars sier:
there will be a roadmap and a treaty
oyzar sier:
have you met anyone else yet?
Mars sier:
I think a peace and non-aggression treaty as a base would make sense
Mars sier:
I cannot answer to that question either
Mars sier:
all in-game details I need an authority to go ahead on
oyzar sier:
well i can't sign anywhere near a nap yet, but personally i am positibly inclined to the idea
Mars sier:
I know that nothing can be signed now
Mars sier:
I am merely presenting a roadmap
Mars sier:
but obviously, our two nations are taking the lead, as it stands
Mars sier:
and that adds to the benefit of teaming up
oyzar sier:
I'll tell you more about my ideas once the team agrees with me
oyzar sier:
brb
Mars sier:
and now that you sent a work boat from the capital as an emmisary, we can figure something out
oyzar sier:
back
Mars sier:
I think we can agree on stating how far we are from each other
Mars sier:
that could be a start
Mars sier:
I guess we have defined production and so on planned well ahead
 
and an official letter from them:

Spoiler letter :
Greetings and Salutations Cavaleiros!

We saw your boats in the water and we are happy to meet people from so far away. It is always so nice to have new friends. We hope all is well and we look forward to getting to know you better. We would like to exchange emissaries soon so that we may discuss matters of a common interest that we may cooperate on.
Individually we are strong but together we would be even stronger. Working together would make us not only stronger but more knowledgeable as well.

We look forward to hearing back from you so that we may begin formal negotiations regarding peace, trade, etc.

Regards,
Team Kazakhstan
signed Foreign Minister Donsig
 
This is really good news, and a superb payback from our investment in an early scouting boat. Some random thoughts that stand out to me:

* They haven't met anyone else. Mars/Provolution makes that pretty clear when he comments how clever we were to scout with a workboat ("you being so ingenious to scout with a work boat, very clever, speaks volumes"), and how fortunate our two teams are to have met so early ("I also think we can make this an opportunity to cooperate well [...] as we have actually met this early"). The fact that they have EP only against us is only confirmation.
* Considering the route we believe (or rather, are quite certain that) they have taken tech-wise, they may possibly be the best possible team for us to meet at this point. They seem to be headed for Writing (just researched AH, researching Pottery now), and I doubt it would take much coercion to get them to go for an early Alphabet. They already hint that they want to trade techs ("Working together would make us not only stronger but more knowledgeable as well.")
* We definitely want to tie them into a tech alliance before they meet anyone else. This tech alliance should have a hole in it for a future third part that we select together. We need to stress this in our communications with them. We may currently be the stronger two teams, but two cannot stand up against three in the long run (unless they are already bigger economically than the others combined).

Need to go to bed now, more thoughts in the morning.
 
I certainly agree. Nap, roadmap to tech choices and intelligence needs to be shared for this to work out...
 
NAP and tradewhoring. It's better if people trust us for now. Trust us and hopefully we seem inconvenient targets if possible. If we're thinking of betrayal (ours or theirs) it will have to wait until feasible at least.

In games like this, mini-alliances usually win out. If they're a strong team as others are saying, we could pretty useful as a screw-others alliance. Especially if we betray another group or civ as a team.
 
Spoiler Yet more chats with provolution :
oyzar sier:
good morning
Mars sier:
morning
Mars sier:
we are having a vote on the proposal we make
oyzar sier:
Can you share any info with me yet?
Mars sier:
Not until the vote is concluded
oyzar sier:

Mars sier:
I saw you withholded the save?
oyzar sier:
anyways i have a proposal, you guys don't have myst(and hence none of the religious techs), while you do have ah and hunting that we don't have hence i propose that you guys go writing -> alpha(after you finish pottery ofc) while we go priesthood -> monarchy then arrange a deal so we all can get use of early herditary rule(as well as early ability to trade techs?
oyzar sier:
we would also be interested in at very least a NAP
Mars sier:
We are some 15 active players, and they clearly stated they wanted this internal round on how to proceed
Mars sier:
I will post this up for them
oyzar sier:
since this requires both of us skipping some rather important early techs it would obviously have to be pretty straight beelines...
oyzar sier:
where exactly in the world are you again?
Mars sier:
right now in London
oyzar sier:
when is the vote concluded?
Mars sier:
like Kaleb
oyzar sier:
oh, so it is actually like 12 for you now
Mars sier:
yes
oyzar sier:
but normally you are in the states right?
Mars sier:
yes
Mars sier:
but I work around
oyzar sier:
any chance you'll finish the vote before say 2 pm your time?
Mars sier:
in 2 hours?
Mars sier:
no chance
oyzar sier:

Mars sier:
we need to consider the west coast guys
oyzar sier:
you've had well over a day already
Mars sier:
its a big decision what we do now
Mars sier:
and we are not holding the save
oyzar sier:
at least you should be able to tell me if you are interested in a nap / closer cooperation etc...
Mars sier:
I said within 48 h
Mars sier:
NAP and closer cooperation is certain
Mars sier:
that is positive
oyzar sier:
i know, but that doesn't stop me from being impatient
Mars sier:
the exact nature of the proposal hinge on the fact that we got some internal groups that wants to use this diplomacy to heavily influence the strategy at the expense of other proposed strategies
Mars sier:
so its complicated this very second
Mars sier:
but a vote will handle it
oyzar sier:
well obviously the trading influences everything else...
oyzar sier:
but that doesn't mean that trading isn't the strongest mechanic around when it is enabled....
oyzar sier:
you are researching pottery now right?
oyzar sier:
(i am not 100% sure on that)
Mars sier:
I cannot answer any questions on in-game issues, until we got that vote
oyzar sier:
anyways even if as you say we are the two strongest teams atm(which i am not certian of as sancta is pretty well off too), there isn't really a way for 2 teams to beat 3(unless you have more land between the 2 people than the other 3 have obviously), hence even if we chose to cooperate closely we should look for a 3rd party to complete a power triangle
Mars sier:
I can agree to that
Mars sier:
as a person
oyzar sier:
good
Mars sier:
Even if we are the two strongest teams, the other teams do have early UUs and UBs
oyzar sier:
if you are researching writing that would be damn good(but as i said i think it is pottery), since we have pottery already...
oyzar sier:
holkans and immortals? i don't think the game will come to a stage where they are dangerous to anyone but barbs
oyzar sier:
and none of the UB's are actually early...
Mars sier:
Ball Court is
Mars sier:
relatively
oyzar sier:
I guess, but it isn't amazing since it is post monarchy in a time line most probably
Mars sier:
Apothecary is more mid-game
oyzar sier:
you do agree that monarchy is the most important early game economic tech right?
Mars sier:
depending on the map, I may lean to agree
oyzar sier:
apothecary and stock exchange are very close together
Mars sier:
but the map decides most of the time
oyzar sier:
sure
Mars sier:
so monarchy is your priority?
oyzar sier:
probably
oyzar sier:
you have seen some of my other games right?
oyzar sier:
like C&C?
Mars sier:
no
oyzar sier:
well in C&C i got monarchy as my first classical era tech
oyzar sier:
well before math/alpha/iw
oyzar sier:
most of the time you don't have enough happiness for monarchy not to be the very best tech around
Mars sier:
But obviously you got a stronger maritime focus than we do, you have less landmass and so on
oyzar sier:
i don't see what the maritime focus got to do with anything...
Mars sier:
being, sending a work boat as a scout (a novel concept to me) was clever
oyzar sier:
we had more landmass last i checked i think
oyzar sier:
but at any rate i don't htink it matters much
oyzar sier:
workboats are among the best scouts for finding people at this stage of the game...
oyzar sier:
they don't die to barbs
Mars sier:
we should have known...
Mars sier:
what about water-barbs then?
oyzar sier:
they don't apaear for many millenia yet
Mars sier:
how many turns for the water barbs?
oyzar sier:
it depends on when people get sailing
oyzar sier:
in normal play against the AI they always get sailing early so they tend to pop up rather early
oyzar sier:
but on this map against humans, i don't know
oyzar sier:
i might be able to tell later though, if you decide to work closely with us that is
Mars sier:
LOL
Mars sier:
I wish I had a broader mandate, then I could disclose more
Mars sier:
but we can surely agree to a non-aggression treaty
Mars sier:
but we need a timer with it
oyzar sier:
axes, spears, swords etc all depends on when humans researchs the various techs
Mars sier:
can you give us a proposed timespan?
oyzar sier:
"until there is any major shift in the game, for example caused by the elimination of one team"
oyzar sier:
as a start
Mars sier:
major shift needs to be defined
Mars sier:
in more detail
oyzar sier:
obviously
Mars sier:
it has to be a series of defined circumstances
oyzar sier:
putting a strict time limit on it if we actually plan to work together(as in tech alliance) seems silly...
Mars sier:
I can agree to that, breeds paranoia, like in the ongoing conflict in the middle east
oyzar sier:
elimination of one team or clear dominance of a team or a break in any of our arranged deals?
oyzar sier:
though i guess the last part is rather silly
oyzar sier:
since we certainly aren't planning to break any deals
Mars sier:
it should be written though
oyzar sier:
we are writing now
oyzar sier:
tell you what, you can come up with what you think if fair as a definition of major shift in the game and we'll say if we have any changes to it?
oyzar sier:
oh and another note, before any of us get writing, we might have to decleare war on you to let the workboat pass through but i trust we are both professional enough to understand that this is not actually war, just a matter of game mechanics
Mars sier:
indeed, you want a short interim war there, I can see that
oyzar sier:
well it is not actually a war, just that open borders aren't avilable yet
oyzar sier:
i suppose that if we agree to this nap etc we'll also agree to be trading partners with open borders at least?
oyzar sier:
I feel we have progressed a fair bit in this second discussion
oyzar sier:
even if you aren't actually allowed to say anything yet
oyzar sier:
you do have fishing/ag/wheel/hunting/ah/mining/bw already right?
Mars sier:
Even if I wanted to, I could not reply on specific techs we got
oyzar sier:
anything you can reply to?
oyzar sier:
any questions you have?
oyzar sier:
can you guess what techs we have?
oyzar sier:
or maybe you know but can't tell me that either?
Mars sier:
about the work boat? Do you plan to work some resource with it?
oyzar sier:
not in the near future at least
oyzar sier:
how far are your capital?
Mars sier:
haha, that was some question
oyzar sier:
how far away is your capital then?
oyzar sier:
i think i need to leave soon
oyzar sier:
anything else of interest you can tell me first?
Mars sier:
I posted the proposal
Mars sier:
and they are interested
Mars sier:
some of them at least
oyzar sier:
well we certainly thought you would given our earlier conversation
Mars sier:
ok, if you tell the exact time your workboat left your capital, I will tell you when you arrive our
oyzar sier:
30ish
Mars sier:
you left turn 30?
oyzar sier:
something like that yeah
Mars sier:
you will arrive around turn 48
oyzar sier:
i guess you won't have writing by then eh
Mars sier:
hehe
oyzar sier:
there isn't a way to sail around either is there?
oyzar sier:
meeting someone certainly changes things
oyzar sier:
i wish we had met you when you started on your current tech(so you could change to writing since we already have pottery)
oyzar sier:
but the earlier, the better right?
oyzar sier:
are your area full of peaks?
oyzar sier:
have you played much mp with tt before(pitboss or other
oyzar sier:
?)
Mars sier:
played email based before
Mars sier:
but not pitboss and teambased
Mars sier:
that is new
oyzar sier:
in a few of the pitboss games tech trading have been so overpowered it is not funny, that is why in general i don't like it much, that said i'll still use it if avilable
oyzar sier:
in my very first pitboss game tech trading was on and by beelining alphabet i was able to quickly establish a tech alliance with another decent player(and some minor players) and hence blow out the opposition
oyzar sier:
in this game the opposition likely will be stronger though, but that doesn't make tech trading any less powerful
Mars sier:
well I agree
Mars sier:
just warn you some players do not want to rush too fast
Mars sier:
which is why we need to conclude this
Mars sier:
for them to digest
Mars sier:
you also need to boil a more formal treaty proposal together
Mars sier:
with the NAP
Mars sier:
conditions for the NAP
Mars sier:
and the tech research agreement proposal
oyzar sier:
well you being economist(or something like that anyways) should know what opporunity cost is... the cost of waiting is far greater than the cost of acting too early
Mars sier:
I know
Mars sier:
believe me
Mars sier:
but we got a couple of hesitant ones
oyzar sier:
i'll copy this into the forums and be off for a bit then
oyzar sier:
will you be around tonight? (euro time)
Mars sier:
I will
Mars sier:
but cannot guarantee that I will chat then
oyzar sier:
I'll be home around 8-9 my time which is like 7-8 your time
Mars sier:
we do not need to post absolutely all we say either
oyzar sier:
heh ok
oyzar sier:
sure
Mars sier:
or we get a chatlog fatigue on both sides
oyzar sier:
post whatever you feel is apropriate
Mars sier:
ok, please put together a proposal
Mars sier:
a NAP, the tech deal and so on
oyzar sier:
proposal? i already proposed several things...
oyzar sier:
We haven't aggreed on anything yet due to your ability to act but that doesn't mean my proposals doesn't stand
Mars sier:
ok, I told some of the more conservative ones, used to demogames, that they wanted a sort of document
Mars sier:
but we can draft these for you
oyzar sier:
fast and furious, that's my style
oyzar sier:
a multi team democracy game and a democracy game isn't really the same thing at all though
 
Hmmmmmm, I'm kind of in wait and see with this. Obviously I'm in favor of swapping monarchy for the alphabet line. That team is lallygagging though. Annoying.
 
I think we need some guidelines on what we're giving out ourselves ... :shifty:
 
Revealing that we are going for Monarchy with Oyzar on our team is not really anything special, Renata. Besides, I think Oy wanted to scare them with what info we have on them due to our demographic-analysis.

On a not entirely related topic, can you send me Provolutions msn, Oyzar? Would be nice. I played in the DemoGame III with him, by the way...
 
Another letter from them. Seems like they are not acting entierly in accordance with our wishes...

Spoiler letter 2 from Kazakhstan :
Greetings Team Cavalieros:

We are very interested in a trade of Alphabet for Monarchy as well as other profitable trades. However, any further talk of beneficial interaction between our teams has to be postponed until we address the prospect of your suggested border incursion with your workboat.

We value highly our territorial sovereignty and any incursion would be seen in the harshest light. Relations between our two teams would be severely damaged if you fail to respect the integrity of our borders.

We are awaiting your assurance that you will respect our sovereignty and turn you workboat back when you reach our borders. We look forward to resuming profitable trade discussions as soon as you affirm your honorable intentions.
Team Kazakhstan


Also had some more chats with mars:
Spoiler more chatlog with mars :
Mars sier:
its going to take time
oyzar sier:
hi
oyzar sier:
well your next tech is comming up
oyzar sier:
unless you start next on writing we won't be able to go along with the plan either...
Mars sier:
is that an ultimatum?
oyzar sier:
no not really
oyzar sier:
just game mechanics
Mars sier:
some of my team mates consider me chatting with you damaging, to let it be known
oyzar sier:
we can still trade, it'll just be quite a lot less profitable for both sides
oyzar sier:
i thought you were the ambasador for your team?
Mars sier:
I know what you are saying
oyzar sier:
(ie handle all offocial negotiations etc)
Mars sier:
but this is a question of negotiation style and tactics
oyzar sier:
if we aren't gonna chat how the hell are we gonna cooperate???
oyzar sier:
or they think that cooperating is bad too?
Mars sier:
some of these are more formalistic in style
Mars sier:
so you need to give them some leg
oyzar sier:
it is gonna be almost impossible to win this game "alone"
Mars sier:
you need to send them a sort of email with a "treaty"
oyzar sier:
sure, but i don't see why the heck you can't slow down your turns... your last turn was 1 hour...
Mars sier:
I have no control on that
oyzar sier:
I already said to you what i proposed...
Mars sier:
I know
oyzar sier:
Why do i have to repeat myself?
oyzar sier:
can you actually tell me anything official today?
oyzar sier:
even if it is things i already know, it would be nice
Mars sier:
as I said, it is about negotiation style
oyzar sier:
so you guys will be unvilling to nap / cooperate / ally with us because of my style? i find that rather silly
Mars sier:
if you are coming strong on chat, asking a lot of direct questions on sensitive matters, the more paranoid types jolts up
Mars sier:
and someone needs to reassure them all the time
Mars sier:
I am just telling you this backdoow
Mars sier:
backdoor
oyzar sier:
I've told you quite a lot of things, yet you've hardly been able to tell me anything...
Mars sier:
I told you the time you would arrive our capital
oyzar sier:
yes i know
Mars sier:
one guy even told that was damaging
Mars sier:
so we got a cooperative wing and a skeptical wing
oyzar sier:
but thats also the only thing you've said. You proposed it would be a good idea for us to tech trade but you've yet to say what techs you have or even been able to confirm what i've been saying about what you have...
Mars sier:
we want to trade the monarchy vs alphabet
Mars sier:
that one is safe if we can found that with a NAT
oyzar sier:
NAT?
Mars sier:
and we need a deadline for that transfer
oyzar sier:
what is NAT?
Mars sier:
Non Aggression Treaty
Mars sier:
I do not like the NAP
Mars sier:
which reminds me of sleeping
oyzar sier:
i already proposed a nap, but you've as of yet been unable to confirm / accept anything...
oyzar sier:
nap is the common term for it
Mars sier:
there will be one conditionality, they ask for
oyzar sier:
using nat instead is just confusing
oyzar sier:
what condition?
Mars sier:
ok NAP then
Mars sier:
we need a turn deadline for that
oyzar sier:
why?
Mars sier:
for the trade?
oyzar sier:
for the trade or the nap?
Mars sier:
these go by each other
Mars sier:
of course, if the deal does not happen, the NAP is off, until renegotiated
oyzar sier:
well we obviously can't trade before we get the techs... and since this is a trade with a huge amount of prereqs(btw can you confirm what techs you have yet), it needs to be staged in several steps/turns anyways, which involves quite a lot of trust. If your team is unable to trust i have a hard time seeing how you can cooperate with us(or anyone for that matter)
oyzar sier:
so can you confirm what techs you got?
Mars sier:
I am not privy to say that yet
oyzar sier:
...
Mars sier:
that was a proposal we considered
Mars sier:
to agree to share tech trees
Mars sier:
info on that
oyzar sier:
well i know what techs you have
Mars sier:
how much time do we have left, 2-3 turns?
oyzar sier:
i've already told you
oyzar sier:
time? before you hit end of turn this turn obviously?
oyzar sier:
so no time at all since your turn player obviously doesn't go well with the rest of the team...
Mars sier:
Kaleb went a bit too fast there , I agree
Mars sier:
and you are sending PMs back and forth
oyzar sier:
well he refuses to come on msn for some weird reason
oyzar sier:
though i don't see why i can't just talk with you
oyzar sier:
...
Mars sier:
he is a very busy person
Mars sier:
there are also internal strategy discussion
Mars sier:
its a good team, but we still need to get a common ground
oyzar sier:
so if he is a very bussy person, why the heck is he your turn player? O_o
Mars sier:
no idea
Mars sier:
maybe he likes to play it
Mars sier:
some people like email
Mars sier:
these are the ones that complains
oyzar sier:
well at the very least post somewhere in the forum and/or message the turn player(if you have one) that you should delay the next turn so you guys can come to an agreement on how to deal with us?
oyzar sier:
those people that are hestiant to deal with us, are they aware of the strength of tech trading?
Mars sier:
no idea, they are just plain paranoid
oyzar sier:
why do they like email?
oyzar sier:
email is sooooooooooooooooooooooo slow
Mars sier:
why not work something out here, a proposal that I know will go well, even for the skeptics
oyzar sier:
there are studies that show that email takes on average 1-2 hours out of every workers workday for very little benefit
Mars sier:
for the tech tree, the land is quite important in choosing our techs, recognize that
oyzar sier:
the strength of email is overrated 3* by users of it, and other toold and underevaluated by 3* hence other tools needs to be 9* as beneficial as email for email users to consider them, and that is obviously rather hard...
oyzar sier:
sure but the only important basic tech you don't have atm is myst(and if you have a lot of jungle, which i doubt, iw)
Mars sier:
what we can do, is to have a massive tech trade when we got Alphabet and Monarchy on the table
oyzar sier:
if we don't beeline for the mentioned techs however they are going to be delayed by 20ish turns
oyzar sier:
20ish turns later monarchy have QUITE a lot of impact on economy don't you think?
Mars sier:
there is stuff we need regardless for our cities
oyzar sier:
i've beelined alpha without bw in mp before, the ability to negotiate trades between humans is just so good, obviously that won't happen in this game, but there are quite a few things that are as good as getting the ability to trade meaningful techs asap
oyzar sier:
you said you wanted to share knowledge between our teams earlier, and despite that you are unwilling to beeline alpha?
oyzar sier:
or are you personally interested in beelining alpha but your team is not?
Mars sier:
Well, if I told you stuff someone forbade me to tell, all hell would break loose, and I would have no legitimacy in my team
oyzar sier:
sure
Mars sier:
simply telling you the time of the arrival allowed us to avoid potential military conflict
oyzar sier:
who are these someone and why do they have the right to forbade you to tell me stuff?
Mars sier:
it is a rough debate on tech choices and city locations
Mars sier:
strong opinions prevail
oyzar sier:
obviously our capitals are not close enough to think of any sort of early game conflic, right?
Mars sier:
I agree to that
Mars sier:
turn 30 you started out
Mars sier:
I hope you meant 30, not 36 or 38
Mars sier:
anyways, we are having units out in that direction
oyzar sier:
it'll take forever to you to reach us...
oyzar sier:
not to mention all the barbs on the way...
Mars sier:
I know
Mars sier:
long distance
Mars sier:
we talk about 22 tiles from where we met
Mars sier:
or 18, considering we need to consider its land tiles
Mars sier:
to be very honest, I want cooperation
Mars sier:
but the opponents to this, try to squeeze us for getting an upper hand domestically
Mars sier:
in the other debates
oyzar sier:
we won't be able to beeline monarchy unless you are able to guarnatee your ability for you to cooperate with us...
oyzar sier:
there are someone that are actually opposed to any cooperation with anyone at all? or rather any permanent or at least very strong ties to other teams? That sounds rather stupid to me...
Mars sier:
I can promise you, when the deal is made, its carved out in stone
Mars sier:
you may rather compare it to US politics
Mars sier:
some politicians feigns competence by being assertive, complicated, aggressive, paranoid, overanalytical and overcautious
oyzar sier:
lol
Mars sier:
I am the one walking the razor here
Mars sier:
between your inquisitive questions on our game position, and the most troublesome team members
Mars sier:

oyzar sier:
Seems you guys have a bigger problem getting your team united on any and all issues than we do at least...
Mars sier:
Its not that bad actually
Mars sier:
we got 3-4 very vocal posters
Mars sier:
but they tend to fall into the ranks
Mars sier:
me, kaleb, cavscout and a few others think the same
Mars sier:
you got least problems with the turnplayers
Mars sier:
this agreement will happen
Mars sier:
we just have to appease the skeptics
oyzar sier:
sure, but the longer time of indecision the higher the opportunity cost...
Mars sier:
I know
Mars sier:
we lose techs by the turn
Mars sier:
which is why we have to focus on how to persuade the teams
oyzar sier:
It's been over 2 days now...
Mars sier:
pitboss really changes the game dynamic
oyzar sier:
how so?
Mars sier:
most of these are used to slow paced demogames with a lot of squabbling, as they were used to email
Mars sier:
1 turn per week or so
oyzar sier:
this is very close to real pitboss, 1 turn per day, even with the slowdown
Mars sier:
indeed
Mars sier:
I am waiting for one more vote
Mars sier:
and I can send the second official note
Mars sier:
I got one guy that causes problems all the time
oyzar sier:
so i assume the vote to share what you've teched or even confirm or deny that i am right didn't pass in our favour then?
oyzar sier:
who causes problems?
Mars sier:
I cannot name the very player, that would be against team interests
Mars sier:
but a fairly young guy
Mars sier:
very easily angered and argumentative
Mars sier:
you ready?
oyzar sier:
angered over forum posts? O_o
oyzar sier:
ready for what?
Mars sier:
the official note
oyzar sier:
sure
Mars sier:
it will be sent over mail as well
oyzar sier:
...
oyzar sier:
just post it here
Mars sier:
do not present this as a chatlog, but as a mail
Mars sier:
so it "looks" official
Mars sier:
you know what I mean
oyzar sier:
I posted the last letter as separate from the chatlog as well
oyzar sier:
but yes
Mars sier:
you have no idea what hinterland I am dealing with
Mars sier:
this is what the team said
Mars sier:
if this is agreed upon, we can work on the tech deals
oyzar sier:
sounds pretty silly to me given that tech is way more important than letting us see what is inside your borders, not to mention that letting us explore further on the other side will potentially let us find more people to trad with(for both of us if we are going to cooperate), which can only help us, but sure i'll pass it on
Mars sier:
As I said
Mars sier:
If I was dictator of this team
Mars sier:
It would have been a very different negotiation
oyzar sier:
sounds like you have a harder time dealing with your team than with us
Mars sier:
haha, almost
Mars sier:
the thing is, it would have been harder if I werent there
Mars sier:
you would have none to chat to
Mars sier:
and none to see it from your side
Mars sier:
but if we can establish initial trust
Mars sier:
I guess they will melt
oyzar sier:
well if you weren't there, you(as in kaz) would just be ilasionists and hence doomed to end up rather poorly as everyone else got allies and hence refused to trade with you
oyzar sier:
isolationists i mean
Mars sier:
i know
Mars sier:
but this may work out
Mars sier:
if we can get this alphabet and a few resource trades, as well as open borders
oyzar sier:
oh and our general response is WTF, but we'll see if we if we accept or not later
Mars sier:
that would be fine
oyzar sier:
you can pass that on
oyzar sier:
point is an alliance would be way more beneficial if it is established well before alphabet and open borders etc
oyzar sier:
and if the plan is open borders anyways, why the heck would you want to deny us access into your borders?
Mars sier:
it is about establishing trust, they argue
Mars sier:
that respecting borders is the first step
Mars sier:
none of us wants war weariness and stuff like that
Mars sier:
so I think this will work out
oyzar sier:
war weariness????
oyzar sier:
what does that have to do with anything?
Mars sier:
as in the state of diplomacy, not in-game
oyzar sier:
well i already told you it would be a fake war
oyzar sier:
you've never heard the term fake war before?
Mars sier:
i do
oyzar sier:
there are quite a few games where the rules for war are such that it is beneficial for cooperating parties to be at a state of war ingame even thought they are just helping each other
Mars sier:
i know
Mars sier:
you need to formulate a real nice letter one day
Mars sier:
to charm the skepticists
oyzar sier:
you do realize that sending this letter makes it quite a lot more likely that we won't want to cooperate with you right? While i originally was well positioned for cooperating with you guys, if you try to go out of your way to make things difficult we can't give in forever
Mars sier:
i know your position on this
 
Good job with the Diplo. Couple of comments. First, I think it will be easier to have separate threads for each team rather than have all the conversations jumbled here. Also, if we can meet another team soon from our other workboat, a long term alliance with Kazakstan might not be so beneficial given how difficult they are to work with. If they fail to find a partner and the game becomes 2v2v1, they would be a tempting target.
 
Sigh. Seems we have to do some very slow and patient explaining to them about the value of cooperation. Preferably in a wording that strengthens their cooperative faction and makes the paranoid faction look foolish. I've started on a draft.
 
Good God. *headshake*

I'm having a bad 24 hours. :( :lol:
 
I think we need to hold a vote on wether we want to accept their conditions or not though...
 
Set up a poll, I guess. I'm not inclined to agree to them, to be honest, at least not before Niklas has had a go at them and we see if that works.
 
No need to be rash and set up a poll before we discuss our options. I'll have a draft coming up shortly.
 
I wonder if the point of the border closure is to get a workboat of their own out to the east ahead of ours? Though I'm sure they could have managed it anyway if they wanted to; it's still about three turns before we even get there.

Edit: oh, and I love Mars acting like their telling us how far away their capital is is such a big concession, considering we were going to get there anyway in a handful of turns, whereas it's a huge IF as to whether their warriors will ever even find ours ...
 
Here is the note I propose we send to them, via email:

Dear Team Kazakhstan,

surely you have heard your wise men say to you what ours say to us. That in a world where discoveries can flow freely between people {Tech Trading On}, a lone people cannot hope to compete with two people that cooperate, nor can two cooperating people hope to compete with three people that cooperate. It is simple arit... eh, counting of beads in a bowl. And in accordance, from the beginning of time, this has been the task we have set ourselves, to find not one but two other like-minded people with whom we could face the future together. Any other people would naturally be left in the dust, for such is the way of this world.

So when your warriors hailed us from the shore we were delighted, de-LIGHT-ed, to find a kindred civilized people in the world. When the first pigeons returned to Olho Serpentem, there were celebrations in the streets, for those were truly marvellous news. We had made contact with a people like us, a strong, proud and inquisitive nation. A people with a will to look forward in the world and embrace a glorious future, in cooperation with us, so that we together could soar above and beyond the other people that surely must exist in this world. A civilized people who would know the words of the wise men for truth, and would be eager to join in beneficial cooperation, live in mutual peace and prosperity, and aid in the search of a third people to share our future with.

But then the marvellously good news began to mix with strange discordant notes. At first only minor things. Your people needed some time to think, where our intrepid sailors already had the relevant policies brought with them from before they set sail. You could not give any information that could be beneficial to all of us, despite us being open and sharing our own goals and thoughts. And you insisted on slower communications {no IM but email} despite the seasons turning fast {you didn't even pause your play!}.

But we were patient {most of us anyway}, and we waited, for surely you would know the wisdom of cooperation, and it was just a matter of bureau... eh, lengthy discussion that would in the end reach a fruitful conclusion. So when your formal note finally arrived, we eagerly opened it, only to be highly disappointed - nay, shocked! - at its highly uncooperative contents. These were not the words of the wise men that we expected to see, they were the words of the rash, hot-headed and paranoid young men that always share the camp fires, always calling for antagonistic action. Whereas the cooler, wiser heads nod sagely to each other and disregard the foolish words of those who do not yet know the full ways of the world, those who believe they alone can take on the world and do not need to rely on others.

To be precise - your insistance that we do not sail past your lands can only be interpreted as two things. First and foremost it speaks of a fear, a fear that we would abuse any knowledge we gain of the lay of your lands. While this could be understandable among wary neighbors, it should not be so between two people that have agreed to cooperate in full. It speaks only of distrust and discord, where we seek openness, friendship and cooperation. We would understand that you would not let just anyone pass, but we do not wish to be just anyone to you, which we have tried to make very clear. We would obviously allow you the same concessions, and agree to work with you in the fullest to ensure your feeling of security. But also from a practical point of view, your strange and discordant wish is directly at odds with the grand mission we have set ourselves, to find not only one but two people with which to share this bright future, a future you would be included in.

So to conclude, we are truly disheartened to hear your reply, for we certainly have nothing but honorable intentions. But if you do not share our bright vision of the future, and prefer to live in darkness and fear, we will lament the loss of a golden opportunity for both our people, but we will not give up our vision. We still hope, with all our hearts, that you will cast off the shroud of mistrust and heed not the young and rash but the old and wise among you. Then we can set our sails together and ride the wind into the unknown glorious future.

With our most sincere hopes and wishes for a strong cooperation,
Niklas, speaking with the (more patient) voice of Team Cavaleiros
 
I just sent this quick note to their email:

Greetings Team Kazakhstan,

this is just a quick formal note asking you to hold the save as long as possible until our discussions can reach a conclusion. We will send a formal reply to your note as soon as the team has agreed to what to reply. We promise to keep the discussions quick so as not to keep you waiting.

Thank you for understanding,

Team Cavaleiros
And we got a quick note back:
Greetings, thank you for your response. We will hold our turn as long as we can in order to give you time to formulate your response, that's fine.

When sending communiques shall we also agree to sign up with the name of the person sending the actual message?

Team Kazakhstan
... to which I replied:
Greetings again, and thank you for understanding. Signing with a name
certainly sounds like a good idea, and we will do that in the future.

Niklas dos Cavaleiros (who also sent the last note)
 
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