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Embaixada da Kazakhstan

Discussion in 'Team Cavaleiros' started by oyzar, Jan 15, 2009.

  1. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Here we post all dealings with Kazakhstan.
    This is our current treaty with them:

     
  2. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

    Joined:
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    Spoiler Convo with Mars(Kazakstan ambassador) :
    oyzar sier:
    hi
    Mars sier:
    hi
    oyzar sier:
    who is doing embassy / diplo for you guys?
    Mars sier:
    I am
    oyzar sier:
    goodie
    oyzar sier:
    someone will have a lot of trouble reading over msn logs then
    Mars sier:
    indeed
    Mars sier:
    but we can make summaries with bullet points
    oyzar sier:
    (since i am diplo guy for us)
    Mars sier:
    and highlight key statements
    oyzar sier:
    yeah
    Mars sier:
    we are preparing a letter of presentation here
    Mars sier:
    when its rubberstamped, I can paste it here
    oyzar sier:
    any convo before that still counts though
    Mars sier:
    exactly, which is why I am polite and reserved
    Mars sier:
    since I know this will be posted somewhere
    oyzar sier:
    is it ok if i invite half a dozen idlers to our convo's from time to time?
    Mars sier:
    hmm
    Mars sier:
    need to think of that
    Mars sier:
    I use the same MSN for work and such
    Mars sier:
    and I have plenty of eager civ4 questions from you
    oyzar sier:
    the rest of the people aren't that eager talking about civ i think
    Mars sier:
    we can do it for key meetings
    Mars sier:
    not regular ones like this
    Mars sier:
    announced meetings we can do it for
    oyzar sier:
    so what are your thoughts about the game so far?
    Mars sier:
    Well, I am happy with the team, our team, first of all
    Mars sier:
    and it is interesting to see how the land influences choices
    oyzar sier:
    yeah
    Mars sier:
    I know you are an ace reading demographics charts
    oyzar sier:
    i am happy with our team, even though most are lurkers we do have an insane amount of potential, more importantly among the actually participating people we also have enough good people to go around
    Mars sier:
    I also think we can make this an opportunity to cooperate well
    Mars sier:
    as we have actually met this early
    oyzar sier:
    indeed
    Mars sier:
    so I am positive
    Mars sier:
    and the rest of the team is positive too
    oyzar sier:
    are you heading for a religion?
    Mars sier:
    cannot answer to that buddy
    Mars sier:
    we have a foreign minister too
    oyzar sier:
    Well it would be easier to cooperate if we knew what each other are doing.. Though that all depends on the nature of our cooperation of course, but my intelligence squad tells me you guys are in fact not heading for a religion atm
    Mars sier:
    I can forward to the other folks the importance to answer that
    oyzar sier:
    i thought you said you were the foreign minister?
    Mars sier:
    I am the ambassador
    Mars sier:
    Donsig handles overall foreign policy
    Mars sier:
    he is the one writing diplomatic documents
    oyzar sier:
    discussions will go slow if you can't decide for yourself what you can and cannot say
    Mars sier:
    like the one we are forwarding
    Mars sier:
    we just met
    Mars sier:
    but we will have a crisp and clear info policy very very soon
    Mars sier:
    I want a green light for what to say and not to say before I go ahead
    Mars sier:
    as we are a team
    oyzar sier:
    well obviously...
    Mars sier:
    but i posted the question
    Mars sier:
    but see it in a good light
    Mars sier:
    I will have the full authority to say things when approved
    Mars sier:
    and then we can have a more solid foundation
    oyzar sier:
    so do you have anything that you can and want to tell me?
    Mars sier:
    this will take a day or so
    oyzar sier:
    (or more like us)
    Mars sier:
    I think we can cooperate well together
    Mars sier:
    as you are a naval oriented nation
    Mars sier:
    and we a land oriented
    Mars sier:
    a very good match
    Mars sier:
    you being so ingenious to scout with a work boat, very clever, speaks volumes
    oyzar sier:
    I don't see why that matters, but our goals could be complementary and as such we might certainly want to cooperate with you(though nothing official on that yet)
    Mars sier:
    of course
    Mars sier:
    there will be a roadmap and a treaty
    oyzar sier:
    have you met anyone else yet?
    Mars sier:
    I think a peace and non-aggression treaty as a base would make sense
    Mars sier:
    I cannot answer to that question either
    Mars sier:
    all in-game details I need an authority to go ahead on
    oyzar sier:
    well i can't sign anywhere near a nap yet, but personally i am positibly inclined to the idea
    Mars sier:
    I know that nothing can be signed now
    Mars sier:
    I am merely presenting a roadmap
    Mars sier:
    but obviously, our two nations are taking the lead, as it stands
    Mars sier:
    and that adds to the benefit of teaming up
    oyzar sier:
    I'll tell you more about my ideas once the team agrees with me
    oyzar sier:
    brb
    Mars sier:
    and now that you sent a work boat from the capital as an emmisary, we can figure something out
    oyzar sier:
    back
    Mars sier:
    I think we can agree on stating how far we are from each other
    Mars sier:
    that could be a start
    Mars sier:
    I guess we have defined production and so on planned well ahead
     
  3. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    and an official letter from them:

    Spoiler letter :
    Greetings and Salutations Cavaleiros!

    We saw your boats in the water and we are happy to meet people from so far away. It is always so nice to have new friends. We hope all is well and we look forward to getting to know you better. We would like to exchange emissaries soon so that we may discuss matters of a common interest that we may cooperate on.
    Individually we are strong but together we would be even stronger. Working together would make us not only stronger but more knowledgeable as well.

    We look forward to hearing back from you so that we may begin formal negotiations regarding peace, trade, etc.

    Regards,
    Team Kazakhstan
    signed Foreign Minister Donsig
     
  4. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,290
    Location:
    57°47'55"N 12°09'16"E
    This is really good news, and a superb payback from our investment in an early scouting boat. Some random thoughts that stand out to me:

    * They haven't met anyone else. Mars/Provolution makes that pretty clear when he comments how clever we were to scout with a workboat ("you being so ingenious to scout with a work boat, very clever, speaks volumes"), and how fortunate our two teams are to have met so early ("I also think we can make this an opportunity to cooperate well [...] as we have actually met this early"). The fact that they have EP only against us is only confirmation.
    * Considering the route we believe (or rather, are quite certain that) they have taken tech-wise, they may possibly be the best possible team for us to meet at this point. They seem to be headed for Writing (just researched AH, researching Pottery now), and I doubt it would take much coercion to get them to go for an early Alphabet. They already hint that they want to trade techs ("Working together would make us not only stronger but more knowledgeable as well.")
    * We definitely want to tie them into a tech alliance before they meet anyone else. This tech alliance should have a hole in it for a future third part that we select together. We need to stress this in our communications with them. We may currently be the stronger two teams, but two cannot stand up against three in the long run (unless they are already bigger economically than the others combined).

    Need to go to bed now, more thoughts in the morning.
     
  5. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    I certainly agree. Nap, roadmap to tech choices and intelligence needs to be shared for this to work out...
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    25,708
    NAP and tradewhoring. It's better if people trust us for now. Trust us and hopefully we seem inconvenient targets if possible. If we're thinking of betrayal (ours or theirs) it will have to wait until feasible at least.

    In games like this, mini-alliances usually win out. If they're a strong team as others are saying, we could pretty useful as a screw-others alliance. Especially if we betray another group or civ as a team.
     
  7. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Spoiler Yet more chats with provolution :
    oyzar sier:
    good morning
    Mars sier:
    morning
    Mars sier:
    we are having a vote on the proposal we make
    oyzar sier:
    Can you share any info with me yet?
    Mars sier:
    Not until the vote is concluded
    oyzar sier:

    Mars sier:
    I saw you withholded the save?
    oyzar sier:
    anyways i have a proposal, you guys don't have myst(and hence none of the religious techs), while you do have ah and hunting that we don't have hence i propose that you guys go writing -> alpha(after you finish pottery ofc) while we go priesthood -> monarchy then arrange a deal so we all can get use of early herditary rule(as well as early ability to trade techs?
    oyzar sier:
    we would also be interested in at very least a NAP
    Mars sier:
    We are some 15 active players, and they clearly stated they wanted this internal round on how to proceed
    Mars sier:
    I will post this up for them
    oyzar sier:
    since this requires both of us skipping some rather important early techs it would obviously have to be pretty straight beelines...
    oyzar sier:
    where exactly in the world are you again?
    Mars sier:
    right now in London
    oyzar sier:
    when is the vote concluded?
    Mars sier:
    like Kaleb
    oyzar sier:
    oh, so it is actually like 12 for you now
    Mars sier:
    yes
    oyzar sier:
    but normally you are in the states right?
    Mars sier:
    yes
    Mars sier:
    but I work around
    oyzar sier:
    any chance you'll finish the vote before say 2 pm your time?
    Mars sier:
    in 2 hours?
    Mars sier:
    no chance
    oyzar sier:

    Mars sier:
    we need to consider the west coast guys
    oyzar sier:
    you've had well over a day already
    Mars sier:
    its a big decision what we do now
    Mars sier:
    and we are not holding the save
    oyzar sier:
    at least you should be able to tell me if you are interested in a nap / closer cooperation etc...
    Mars sier:
    I said within 48 h
    Mars sier:
    NAP and closer cooperation is certain
    Mars sier:
    that is positive
    oyzar sier:
    i know, but that doesn't stop me from being impatient
    Mars sier:
    the exact nature of the proposal hinge on the fact that we got some internal groups that wants to use this diplomacy to heavily influence the strategy at the expense of other proposed strategies
    Mars sier:
    so its complicated this very second
    Mars sier:
    but a vote will handle it
    oyzar sier:
    well obviously the trading influences everything else...
    oyzar sier:
    but that doesn't mean that trading isn't the strongest mechanic around when it is enabled....
    oyzar sier:
    you are researching pottery now right?
    oyzar sier:
    (i am not 100% sure on that)
    Mars sier:
    I cannot answer any questions on in-game issues, until we got that vote
    oyzar sier:
    anyways even if as you say we are the two strongest teams atm(which i am not certian of as sancta is pretty well off too), there isn't really a way for 2 teams to beat 3(unless you have more land between the 2 people than the other 3 have obviously), hence even if we chose to cooperate closely we should look for a 3rd party to complete a power triangle
    Mars sier:
    I can agree to that
    Mars sier:
    as a person
    oyzar sier:
    good
    Mars sier:
    Even if we are the two strongest teams, the other teams do have early UUs and UBs
    oyzar sier:
    if you are researching writing that would be damn good(but as i said i think it is pottery), since we have pottery already...
    oyzar sier:
    holkans and immortals? i don't think the game will come to a stage where they are dangerous to anyone but barbs
    oyzar sier:
    and none of the UB's are actually early...
    Mars sier:
    Ball Court is
    Mars sier:
    relatively
    oyzar sier:
    I guess, but it isn't amazing since it is post monarchy in a time line most probably
    Mars sier:
    Apothecary is more mid-game
    oyzar sier:
    you do agree that monarchy is the most important early game economic tech right?
    Mars sier:
    depending on the map, I may lean to agree
    oyzar sier:
    apothecary and stock exchange are very close together
    Mars sier:
    but the map decides most of the time
    oyzar sier:
    sure
    Mars sier:
    so monarchy is your priority?
    oyzar sier:
    probably
    oyzar sier:
    you have seen some of my other games right?
    oyzar sier:
    like C&C?
    Mars sier:
    no
    oyzar sier:
    well in C&C i got monarchy as my first classical era tech
    oyzar sier:
    well before math/alpha/iw
    oyzar sier:
    most of the time you don't have enough happiness for monarchy not to be the very best tech around
    Mars sier:
    But obviously you got a stronger maritime focus than we do, you have less landmass and so on
    oyzar sier:
    i don't see what the maritime focus got to do with anything...
    Mars sier:
    being, sending a work boat as a scout (a novel concept to me) was clever
    oyzar sier:
    we had more landmass last i checked i think
    oyzar sier:
    but at any rate i don't htink it matters much
    oyzar sier:
    workboats are among the best scouts for finding people at this stage of the game...
    oyzar sier:
    they don't die to barbs
    Mars sier:
    we should have known...
    Mars sier:
    what about water-barbs then?
    oyzar sier:
    they don't apaear for many millenia yet
    Mars sier:
    how many turns for the water barbs?
    oyzar sier:
    it depends on when people get sailing
    oyzar sier:
    in normal play against the AI they always get sailing early so they tend to pop up rather early
    oyzar sier:
    but on this map against humans, i don't know
    oyzar sier:
    i might be able to tell later though, if you decide to work closely with us that is
    Mars sier:
    LOL
    Mars sier:
    I wish I had a broader mandate, then I could disclose more
    Mars sier:
    but we can surely agree to a non-aggression treaty
    Mars sier:
    but we need a timer with it
    oyzar sier:
    axes, spears, swords etc all depends on when humans researchs the various techs
    Mars sier:
    can you give us a proposed timespan?
    oyzar sier:
    "until there is any major shift in the game, for example caused by the elimination of one team"
    oyzar sier:
    as a start
    Mars sier:
    major shift needs to be defined
    Mars sier:
    in more detail
    oyzar sier:
    obviously
    Mars sier:
    it has to be a series of defined circumstances
    oyzar sier:
    putting a strict time limit on it if we actually plan to work together(as in tech alliance) seems silly...
    Mars sier:
    I can agree to that, breeds paranoia, like in the ongoing conflict in the middle east
    oyzar sier:
    elimination of one team or clear dominance of a team or a break in any of our arranged deals?
    oyzar sier:
    though i guess the last part is rather silly
    oyzar sier:
    since we certainly aren't planning to break any deals
    Mars sier:
    it should be written though
    oyzar sier:
    we are writing now
    oyzar sier:
    tell you what, you can come up with what you think if fair as a definition of major shift in the game and we'll say if we have any changes to it?
    oyzar sier:
    oh and another note, before any of us get writing, we might have to decleare war on you to let the workboat pass through but i trust we are both professional enough to understand that this is not actually war, just a matter of game mechanics
    Mars sier:
    indeed, you want a short interim war there, I can see that
    oyzar sier:
    well it is not actually a war, just that open borders aren't avilable yet
    oyzar sier:
    i suppose that if we agree to this nap etc we'll also agree to be trading partners with open borders at least?
    oyzar sier:
    I feel we have progressed a fair bit in this second discussion
    oyzar sier:
    even if you aren't actually allowed to say anything yet
    oyzar sier:
    you do have fishing/ag/wheel/hunting/ah/mining/bw already right?
    Mars sier:
    Even if I wanted to, I could not reply on specific techs we got
    oyzar sier:
    anything you can reply to?
    oyzar sier:
    any questions you have?
    oyzar sier:
    can you guess what techs we have?
    oyzar sier:
    or maybe you know but can't tell me that either?
    Mars sier:
    about the work boat? Do you plan to work some resource with it?
    oyzar sier:
    not in the near future at least
    oyzar sier:
    how far are your capital?
    Mars sier:
    haha, that was some question
    oyzar sier:
    how far away is your capital then?
    oyzar sier:
    i think i need to leave soon
    oyzar sier:
    anything else of interest you can tell me first?
    Mars sier:
    I posted the proposal
    Mars sier:
    and they are interested
    Mars sier:
    some of them at least
    oyzar sier:
    well we certainly thought you would given our earlier conversation
    Mars sier:
    ok, if you tell the exact time your workboat left your capital, I will tell you when you arrive our
    oyzar sier:
    30ish
    Mars sier:
    you left turn 30?
    oyzar sier:
    something like that yeah
    Mars sier:
    you will arrive around turn 48
    oyzar sier:
    i guess you won't have writing by then eh
    Mars sier:
    hehe
    oyzar sier:
    there isn't a way to sail around either is there?
    oyzar sier:
    meeting someone certainly changes things
    oyzar sier:
    i wish we had met you when you started on your current tech(so you could change to writing since we already have pottery)
    oyzar sier:
    but the earlier, the better right?
    oyzar sier:
    are your area full of peaks?
    oyzar sier:
    have you played much mp with tt before(pitboss or other
    oyzar sier:
    ?)
    Mars sier:
    played email based before
    Mars sier:
    but not pitboss and teambased
    Mars sier:
    that is new
    oyzar sier:
    in a few of the pitboss games tech trading have been so overpowered it is not funny, that is why in general i don't like it much, that said i'll still use it if avilable
    oyzar sier:
    in my very first pitboss game tech trading was on and by beelining alphabet i was able to quickly establish a tech alliance with another decent player(and some minor players) and hence blow out the opposition
    oyzar sier:
    in this game the opposition likely will be stronger though, but that doesn't make tech trading any less powerful
    Mars sier:
    well I agree
    Mars sier:
    just warn you some players do not want to rush too fast
    Mars sier:
    which is why we need to conclude this
    Mars sier:
    for them to digest
    Mars sier:
    you also need to boil a more formal treaty proposal together
    Mars sier:
    with the NAP
    Mars sier:
    conditions for the NAP
    Mars sier:
    and the tech research agreement proposal
    oyzar sier:
    well you being economist(or something like that anyways) should know what opporunity cost is... the cost of waiting is far greater than the cost of acting too early
    Mars sier:
    I know
    Mars sier:
    believe me
    Mars sier:
    but we got a couple of hesitant ones
    oyzar sier:
    i'll copy this into the forums and be off for a bit then
    oyzar sier:
    will you be around tonight? (euro time)
    Mars sier:
    I will
    Mars sier:
    but cannot guarantee that I will chat then
    oyzar sier:
    I'll be home around 8-9 my time which is like 7-8 your time
    Mars sier:
    we do not need to post absolutely all we say either
    oyzar sier:
    heh ok
    oyzar sier:
    sure
    Mars sier:
    or we get a chatlog fatigue on both sides
    oyzar sier:
    post whatever you feel is apropriate
    Mars sier:
    ok, please put together a proposal
    Mars sier:
    a NAP, the tech deal and so on
    oyzar sier:
    proposal? i already proposed several things...
    oyzar sier:
    We haven't aggreed on anything yet due to your ability to act but that doesn't mean my proposals doesn't stand
    Mars sier:
    ok, I told some of the more conservative ones, used to demogames, that they wanted a sort of document
    Mars sier:
    but we can draft these for you
    oyzar sier:
    fast and furious, that's my style
    oyzar sier:
    a multi team democracy game and a democracy game isn't really the same thing at all though
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    25,708
    Hmmmmmm, I'm kind of in wait and see with this. Obviously I'm in favor of swapping monarchy for the alphabet line. That team is lallygagging though. Annoying.
     
  9. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
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    7,697
    Location:
    NY
    I think we need some guidelines on what we're giving out ourselves ... :shifty:
     
  10. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2007
    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Revealing that we are going for Monarchy with Oyzar on our team is not really anything special, Renata. Besides, I think Oy wanted to scare them with what info we have on them due to our demographic-analysis.

    On a not entirely related topic, can you send me Provolutions msn, Oyzar? Would be nice. I played in the DemoGame III with him, by the way...
     
  11. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Another letter from them. Seems like they are not acting entierly in accordance with our wishes...

    Spoiler letter 2 from Kazakhstan :
    Greetings Team Cavalieros:

    We are very interested in a trade of Alphabet for Monarchy as well as other profitable trades. However, any further talk of beneficial interaction between our teams has to be postponed until we address the prospect of your suggested border incursion with your workboat.

    We value highly our territorial sovereignty and any incursion would be seen in the harshest light. Relations between our two teams would be severely damaged if you fail to respect the integrity of our borders.

    We are awaiting your assurance that you will respect our sovereignty and turn you workboat back when you reach our borders. We look forward to resuming profitable trade discussions as soon as you affirm your honorable intentions.
    Team Kazakhstan


    Also had some more chats with mars:
    Spoiler more chatlog with mars :
    Mars sier:
    its going to take time
    oyzar sier:
    hi
    oyzar sier:
    well your next tech is comming up
    oyzar sier:
    unless you start next on writing we won't be able to go along with the plan either...
    Mars sier:
    is that an ultimatum?
    oyzar sier:
    no not really
    oyzar sier:
    just game mechanics
    Mars sier:
    some of my team mates consider me chatting with you damaging, to let it be known
    oyzar sier:
    we can still trade, it'll just be quite a lot less profitable for both sides
    oyzar sier:
    i thought you were the ambasador for your team?
    Mars sier:
    I know what you are saying
    oyzar sier:
    (ie handle all offocial negotiations etc)
    Mars sier:
    but this is a question of negotiation style and tactics
    oyzar sier:
    if we aren't gonna chat how the hell are we gonna cooperate???
    oyzar sier:
    or they think that cooperating is bad too?
    Mars sier:
    some of these are more formalistic in style
    Mars sier:
    so you need to give them some leg
    oyzar sier:
    it is gonna be almost impossible to win this game "alone"
    Mars sier:
    you need to send them a sort of email with a "treaty"
    oyzar sier:
    sure, but i don't see why the heck you can't slow down your turns... your last turn was 1 hour...
    Mars sier:
    I have no control on that
    oyzar sier:
    I already said to you what i proposed...
    Mars sier:
    I know
    oyzar sier:
    Why do i have to repeat myself?
    oyzar sier:
    can you actually tell me anything official today?
    oyzar sier:
    even if it is things i already know, it would be nice
    Mars sier:
    as I said, it is about negotiation style
    oyzar sier:
    so you guys will be unvilling to nap / cooperate / ally with us because of my style? i find that rather silly
    Mars sier:
    if you are coming strong on chat, asking a lot of direct questions on sensitive matters, the more paranoid types jolts up
    Mars sier:
    and someone needs to reassure them all the time
    Mars sier:
    I am just telling you this backdoow
    Mars sier:
    backdoor
    oyzar sier:
    I've told you quite a lot of things, yet you've hardly been able to tell me anything...
    Mars sier:
    I told you the time you would arrive our capital
    oyzar sier:
    yes i know
    Mars sier:
    one guy even told that was damaging
    Mars sier:
    so we got a cooperative wing and a skeptical wing
    oyzar sier:
    but thats also the only thing you've said. You proposed it would be a good idea for us to tech trade but you've yet to say what techs you have or even been able to confirm what i've been saying about what you have...
    Mars sier:
    we want to trade the monarchy vs alphabet
    Mars sier:
    that one is safe if we can found that with a NAT
    oyzar sier:
    NAT?
    Mars sier:
    and we need a deadline for that transfer
    oyzar sier:
    what is NAT?
    Mars sier:
    Non Aggression Treaty
    Mars sier:
    I do not like the NAP
    Mars sier:
    which reminds me of sleeping
    oyzar sier:
    i already proposed a nap, but you've as of yet been unable to confirm / accept anything...
    oyzar sier:
    nap is the common term for it
    Mars sier:
    there will be one conditionality, they ask for
    oyzar sier:
    using nat instead is just confusing
    oyzar sier:
    what condition?
    Mars sier:
    ok NAP then
    Mars sier:
    we need a turn deadline for that
    oyzar sier:
    why?
    Mars sier:
    for the trade?
    oyzar sier:
    for the trade or the nap?
    Mars sier:
    these go by each other
    Mars sier:
    of course, if the deal does not happen, the NAP is off, until renegotiated
    oyzar sier:
    well we obviously can't trade before we get the techs... and since this is a trade with a huge amount of prereqs(btw can you confirm what techs you have yet), it needs to be staged in several steps/turns anyways, which involves quite a lot of trust. If your team is unable to trust i have a hard time seeing how you can cooperate with us(or anyone for that matter)
    oyzar sier:
    so can you confirm what techs you got?
    Mars sier:
    I am not privy to say that yet
    oyzar sier:
    ...
    Mars sier:
    that was a proposal we considered
    Mars sier:
    to agree to share tech trees
    Mars sier:
    info on that
    oyzar sier:
    well i know what techs you have
    Mars sier:
    how much time do we have left, 2-3 turns?
    oyzar sier:
    i've already told you
    oyzar sier:
    time? before you hit end of turn this turn obviously?
    oyzar sier:
    so no time at all since your turn player obviously doesn't go well with the rest of the team...
    Mars sier:
    Kaleb went a bit too fast there , I agree
    Mars sier:
    and you are sending PMs back and forth
    oyzar sier:
    well he refuses to come on msn for some weird reason
    oyzar sier:
    though i don't see why i can't just talk with you
    oyzar sier:
    ...
    Mars sier:
    he is a very busy person
    Mars sier:
    there are also internal strategy discussion
    Mars sier:
    its a good team, but we still need to get a common ground
    oyzar sier:
    so if he is a very bussy person, why the heck is he your turn player? O_o
    Mars sier:
    no idea
    Mars sier:
    maybe he likes to play it
    Mars sier:
    some people like email
    Mars sier:
    these are the ones that complains
    oyzar sier:
    well at the very least post somewhere in the forum and/or message the turn player(if you have one) that you should delay the next turn so you guys can come to an agreement on how to deal with us?
    oyzar sier:
    those people that are hestiant to deal with us, are they aware of the strength of tech trading?
    Mars sier:
    no idea, they are just plain paranoid
    oyzar sier:
    why do they like email?
    oyzar sier:
    email is sooooooooooooooooooooooo slow
    Mars sier:
    why not work something out here, a proposal that I know will go well, even for the skeptics
    oyzar sier:
    there are studies that show that email takes on average 1-2 hours out of every workers workday for very little benefit
    Mars sier:
    for the tech tree, the land is quite important in choosing our techs, recognize that
    oyzar sier:
    the strength of email is overrated 3* by users of it, and other toold and underevaluated by 3* hence other tools needs to be 9* as beneficial as email for email users to consider them, and that is obviously rather hard...
    oyzar sier:
    sure but the only important basic tech you don't have atm is myst(and if you have a lot of jungle, which i doubt, iw)
    Mars sier:
    what we can do, is to have a massive tech trade when we got Alphabet and Monarchy on the table
    oyzar sier:
    if we don't beeline for the mentioned techs however they are going to be delayed by 20ish turns
    oyzar sier:
    20ish turns later monarchy have QUITE a lot of impact on economy don't you think?
    Mars sier:
    there is stuff we need regardless for our cities
    oyzar sier:
    i've beelined alpha without bw in mp before, the ability to negotiate trades between humans is just so good, obviously that won't happen in this game, but there are quite a few things that are as good as getting the ability to trade meaningful techs asap
    oyzar sier:
    you said you wanted to share knowledge between our teams earlier, and despite that you are unwilling to beeline alpha?
    oyzar sier:
    or are you personally interested in beelining alpha but your team is not?
    Mars sier:
    Well, if I told you stuff someone forbade me to tell, all hell would break loose, and I would have no legitimacy in my team
    oyzar sier:
    sure
    Mars sier:
    simply telling you the time of the arrival allowed us to avoid potential military conflict
    oyzar sier:
    who are these someone and why do they have the right to forbade you to tell me stuff?
    Mars sier:
    it is a rough debate on tech choices and city locations
    Mars sier:
    strong opinions prevail
    oyzar sier:
    obviously our capitals are not close enough to think of any sort of early game conflic, right?
    Mars sier:
    I agree to that
    Mars sier:
    turn 30 you started out
    Mars sier:
    I hope you meant 30, not 36 or 38
    Mars sier:
    anyways, we are having units out in that direction
    oyzar sier:
    it'll take forever to you to reach us...
    oyzar sier:
    not to mention all the barbs on the way...
    Mars sier:
    I know
    Mars sier:
    long distance
    Mars sier:
    we talk about 22 tiles from where we met
    Mars sier:
    or 18, considering we need to consider its land tiles
    Mars sier:
    to be very honest, I want cooperation
    Mars sier:
    but the opponents to this, try to squeeze us for getting an upper hand domestically
    Mars sier:
    in the other debates
    oyzar sier:
    we won't be able to beeline monarchy unless you are able to guarnatee your ability for you to cooperate with us...
    oyzar sier:
    there are someone that are actually opposed to any cooperation with anyone at all? or rather any permanent or at least very strong ties to other teams? That sounds rather stupid to me...
    Mars sier:
    I can promise you, when the deal is made, its carved out in stone
    Mars sier:
    you may rather compare it to US politics
    Mars sier:
    some politicians feigns competence by being assertive, complicated, aggressive, paranoid, overanalytical and overcautious
    oyzar sier:
    lol
    Mars sier:
    I am the one walking the razor here
    Mars sier:
    between your inquisitive questions on our game position, and the most troublesome team members
    Mars sier:

    oyzar sier:
    Seems you guys have a bigger problem getting your team united on any and all issues than we do at least...
    Mars sier:
    Its not that bad actually
    Mars sier:
    we got 3-4 very vocal posters
    Mars sier:
    but they tend to fall into the ranks
    Mars sier:
    me, kaleb, cavscout and a few others think the same
    Mars sier:
    you got least problems with the turnplayers
    Mars sier:
    this agreement will happen
    Mars sier:
    we just have to appease the skeptics
    oyzar sier:
    sure, but the longer time of indecision the higher the opportunity cost...
    Mars sier:
    I know
    Mars sier:
    we lose techs by the turn
    Mars sier:
    which is why we have to focus on how to persuade the teams
    oyzar sier:
    It's been over 2 days now...
    Mars sier:
    pitboss really changes the game dynamic
    oyzar sier:
    how so?
    Mars sier:
    most of these are used to slow paced demogames with a lot of squabbling, as they were used to email
    Mars sier:
    1 turn per week or so
    oyzar sier:
    this is very close to real pitboss, 1 turn per day, even with the slowdown
    Mars sier:
    indeed
    Mars sier:
    I am waiting for one more vote
    Mars sier:
    and I can send the second official note
    Mars sier:
    I got one guy that causes problems all the time
    oyzar sier:
    so i assume the vote to share what you've teched or even confirm or deny that i am right didn't pass in our favour then?
    oyzar sier:
    who causes problems?
    Mars sier:
    I cannot name the very player, that would be against team interests
    Mars sier:
    but a fairly young guy
    Mars sier:
    very easily angered and argumentative
    Mars sier:
    you ready?
    oyzar sier:
    angered over forum posts? O_o
    oyzar sier:
    ready for what?
    Mars sier:
    the official note
    oyzar sier:
    sure
    Mars sier:
    it will be sent over mail as well
    oyzar sier:
    ...
    oyzar sier:
    just post it here
    Mars sier:
    do not present this as a chatlog, but as a mail
    Mars sier:
    so it "looks" official
    Mars sier:
    you know what I mean
    oyzar sier:
    I posted the last letter as separate from the chatlog as well
    oyzar sier:
    but yes
    Mars sier:
    you have no idea what hinterland I am dealing with
    Mars sier:
    this is what the team said
    Mars sier:
    if this is agreed upon, we can work on the tech deals
    oyzar sier:
    sounds pretty silly to me given that tech is way more important than letting us see what is inside your borders, not to mention that letting us explore further on the other side will potentially let us find more people to trad with(for both of us if we are going to cooperate), which can only help us, but sure i'll pass it on
    Mars sier:
    As I said
    Mars sier:
    If I was dictator of this team
    Mars sier:
    It would have been a very different negotiation
    oyzar sier:
    sounds like you have a harder time dealing with your team than with us
    Mars sier:
    haha, almost
    Mars sier:
    the thing is, it would have been harder if I werent there
    Mars sier:
    you would have none to chat to
    Mars sier:
    and none to see it from your side
    Mars sier:
    but if we can establish initial trust
    Mars sier:
    I guess they will melt
    oyzar sier:
    well if you weren't there, you(as in kaz) would just be ilasionists and hence doomed to end up rather poorly as everyone else got allies and hence refused to trade with you
    oyzar sier:
    isolationists i mean
    Mars sier:
    i know
    Mars sier:
    but this may work out
    Mars sier:
    if we can get this alphabet and a few resource trades, as well as open borders
    oyzar sier:
    oh and our general response is WTF, but we'll see if we if we accept or not later
    Mars sier:
    that would be fine
    oyzar sier:
    you can pass that on
    oyzar sier:
    point is an alliance would be way more beneficial if it is established well before alphabet and open borders etc
    oyzar sier:
    and if the plan is open borders anyways, why the heck would you want to deny us access into your borders?
    Mars sier:
    it is about establishing trust, they argue
    Mars sier:
    that respecting borders is the first step
    Mars sier:
    none of us wants war weariness and stuff like that
    Mars sier:
    so I think this will work out
    oyzar sier:
    war weariness????
    oyzar sier:
    what does that have to do with anything?
    Mars sier:
    as in the state of diplomacy, not in-game
    oyzar sier:
    well i already told you it would be a fake war
    oyzar sier:
    you've never heard the term fake war before?
    Mars sier:
    i do
    oyzar sier:
    there are quite a few games where the rules for war are such that it is beneficial for cooperating parties to be at a state of war ingame even thought they are just helping each other
    Mars sier:
    i know
    Mars sier:
    you need to formulate a real nice letter one day
    Mars sier:
    to charm the skepticists
    oyzar sier:
    you do realize that sending this letter makes it quite a lot more likely that we won't want to cooperate with you right? While i originally was well positioned for cooperating with you guys, if you try to go out of your way to make things difficult we can't give in forever
    Mars sier:
    i know your position on this
     
  12. Empiremaker

    Empiremaker Human Fish

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    1,495
    Location:
    The Northwest of the USA
    Good job with the Diplo. Couple of comments. First, I think it will be easier to have separate threads for each team rather than have all the conversations jumbled here. Also, if we can meet another team soon from our other workboat, a long term alliance with Kazakstan might not be so beneficial given how difficult they are to work with. If they fail to find a partner and the game becomes 2v2v1, they would be a tempting target.
     
  13. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,290
    Location:
    57°47'55"N 12°09'16"E
    Sigh. Seems we have to do some very slow and patient explaining to them about the value of cooperation. Preferably in a wording that strengthens their cooperative faction and makes the paranoid faction look foolish. I've started on a draft.
     
  14. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Messages:
    7,697
    Location:
    NY
    Good God. *headshake*

    I'm having a bad 24 hours. :( :lol:
     
  15. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    6,923
    Location:
    Norway
    I think we need to hold a vote on wether we want to accept their conditions or not though...
     
  16. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    7,697
    Location:
    NY
    Set up a poll, I guess. I'm not inclined to agree to them, to be honest, at least not before Niklas has had a go at them and we see if that works.
     
  17. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
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    Location:
    57°47'55"N 12°09'16"E
    No need to be rash and set up a poll before we discuss our options. I'll have a draft coming up shortly.
     
  18. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Messages:
    7,697
    Location:
    NY
    I wonder if the point of the border closure is to get a workboat of their own out to the east ahead of ours? Though I'm sure they could have managed it anyway if they wanted to; it's still about three turns before we even get there.

    Edit: oh, and I love Mars acting like their telling us how far away their capital is is such a big concession, considering we were going to get there anyway in a handful of turns, whereas it's a huge IF as to whether their warriors will ever even find ours ...
     
  19. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Location:
    57°47'55"N 12°09'16"E
    Here is the note I propose we send to them, via email:

     
  20. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Location:
    57°47'55"N 12°09'16"E
    I just sent this quick note to their email:

    And we got a quick note back:
    ... to which I replied:
     

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