Embarking - Quoted Discussion

[Sir Spanky]

I was just doing some lite reading on Civ IV Modding and I found this... I found it so funny mainly for my utter disgust for the embarking in Civ V. I have quoted it and have provided the link... Dated June 1, 2006 by Kael.

I am sorry but I just had to share it. Don't hate to much...

There was an RTS game (I don’t recall which one) that marketed the fact that if you moved your land units through water tiles they automatically turned into boats and crossed. You no longer had to worry about making transports and moving the units across yourself. Although it sounded like a good idea the end result was that water didn’t matter anymore. It was just land you couldn’t put cities on. The cost that water travel imposed was gone, and with it the function of the water itself.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173061

 

[Haig]

Well I used to think that too before but in my opinion water is still water and ocean is still an ocean in Civ V.

I get the proper naval "civ feel" even as the boats don't need to get built. Still you need to build the battleships and explorers, and you need to consider invasions as where to land, and consider the turn spent on getting to the shore (if you don't have marines, units with amphib. promotion). Also Cities act like coastal fortresses now, and now the beach gets crowded from UPT really fast, that reminds me of some historical invasions like Gallipoli..

I think the game gives a good impression of the vast ocean you can only cross during renaissance era, and explore the world, and the special abilities and units (Berserker unit, Turtleship etc.) give more things to consider about, like how Korea sacrifices the age of exploration for isolating itself.

 

[Babri]

Even though you don't need to build transport ships in ciV, it makes warships even more important as even a barb galley can eat your unprotected embarked modern armour now.

 

[Windsor]

The big selling point of embarking was that it's much more AI friendly enabling AIs to actually do intercontinental invasions. Of course, Civ5 failed and embarking ends up looking like some 'dumbed down' feature.

 

[Honos]

I personally dislike Embark in Civ V. I miss the old transport method.

 

[elprofesor]

Frankly, once you put 1upt, there's no need for transport ships anymore; actually, transport ships would be a complete nightmare to manage. Just thinking about it gives me the chills...
Now seriously, I do sometimes miss the transport ships and the tactical issues that came with them, but they didn't matter that much because of naval stacks of doom. Now at least embarked units do make a tactical difference from regular naval units.

 

[smallfish]

Rise of Nations?

I thought they did better than Empire Earth 2 in regards to simplifying the whole naval embarking thing. Sure, it was a lot more fun managing transports in EE2, but the AI couldn't handle that (like in V) and it usually ended up becoming a one-sided slugfest.

 

[headcase]

Idea: you need to build transports, but they don't appear on the map. They just appear on a list. Some transports are stronger than others (the weakest is like the current embarked units situation).

When you go to embark a unit, it asks what transport you want to use from the list. No logistical problems. When you get back on the coast, the transport adds itself to the list again.

Easy to manage, but doesn't give free transports from nowhere (well, they still appear from nowhere, but you have to build them), and lets the player manage how many units they want to cross water at a time and how strong he wants them to be in the water.

If even the list is too annoying, then have an option for automatic management; the strongest units get the strongest transports available, and it will automatically swap out transports on the fly if better ones become available.

The big selling point of embarking was that it's much more AI friendly enabling AIs to actually do intercontinental invasions.

That's a good one.

 

[Sir Spanky]

Well, in my games on Civ IV... the AI constantly made Intercontinental Invasions. The worst thing about the Embarking is that water, lakes and seas, can no longer be used as a blocking mechanism from AI expansion... so we go from placing a couple cities on one side of a lake to block an expansive AI to needing to swallow the map in Cities to stop the AI. Embarking has taken away a tactical use of inland Water Ways.

Transports should be in the game, We still have the Aircraft Carrier. Why can't we haul units in a transport and unload them 1upt?

 

[kwikill]

Well, in my games on Civ IV... the AI constantly made Intercontinental Invasions. The worst thing about the Embarking is that water, lakes and seas, can no longer be used as a blocking mechanism from AI expansion... so we go from placing a couple cities on one side of a lake to block an expansive AI to needing to swallow the map in Cities to stop the AI. Embarking has taken away a tactical use of inland Water Ways.

Transports should be in the game, We still have the Aircraft Carrier. Why can't we haul units in a transport and unload them 1upt?

Aircraft already follow different rules in terms of stacking.

It's fine, honestly. That embarked units are defenseless against naval units is all the balance that's necessary. The only problem is the AI still being clueless about it.

What I would add, however, is a canal terrain improvement. Cities can function as a canal if built on an isthmus, but I would like to see options for scenarios for land plots more than 1 tile wide.

 

[Thoughtful Thug]

I do feel agree Kael had said. Another thing that get on my nerves is that why am I restricted to move onto the ocean tile with my galley? I love the fact that we were able to take the risk of moving onto the dangerous ocean like we did with Civ 3.

 

[Dunkah]

The thing I don't like about the embarking system as it stands currently in ciV is the fact that units can embark from anywhere. Units should have to embark from either a city or a fort, then they can disembark anywhere.

Possibly have an amphibious upgrade that allows a unit to embark from anywhere, but those should be special units like Marines, Seals etc.

Apparenlty every unit in the game carries boats around in a caravan until they are needed then they simply roll them up and embark?

Simple change, would make a huge difference in the game.

 

[elprofesor]

Nice idea!
I personally like it, and would like to try a game with this modded in.

 

[filli_noctus]

Wouldn't work well with 1upt. At best, assuming you have a city on a peninsula, you could embark five units in a turn in one area. More likely 2-3 given usual coastal city location. This would make overseas invasion problematic as you'd have to wait several turns as you your army, dispatch units as and when they can embark (leaving the force strung out and more vulnerable to being hoovered) or build a string of forts on every other coastal tile which probably won't be the best use for the land (no matter how historically accurate it may be if you're playing as England).

 

[elprofesor]

That's true, sadly. I guess you could limit that to only be able to embark from your own territory, although that keeps another problem I hadn't thought of before, and that's your units can't flee at all once disembarked, which would make intercontinental invasions a huge gamble. And it would be impossible to get the ancient ruins in tiny islands...

 

[kwikill]

The thing I don't like about the embarking system as it stands currently in ciV is the fact that units can embark from anywhere. Units should have to embark from either a city or a fort, then they can disembark anywhere.

Possibly have an amphibious upgrade that allows a unit to embark from anywhere, but those should be special units like Marines, Seals etc.

Apparenlty every unit in the game carries boats around in a caravan until they are needed then they simply roll them up and embark?

Simple change, would make a huge difference in the game.

The loss of turn when embarking is meant to emulate the preparation required.