Bowsling
Deity
Sent it, with one minor change (in italics)
Embassy to mavericks
- Thread starter Provolution
- Start date
That was definitely worth logging in to check.
Yes, Mavericks have the Oracle.
They seem to have slaved their population heavily to get it. Though I'm unsure and will have to check - does that indicate a 3 pop city (and their one-pop second city) or a four pop city and their second city? Or some other combo?
Edit: My guess is their capital is now at size three, so they slaved two population. Their second city, which they did get fairly early, is at size 2. 21000 + 6000 = 27000 pop.
It will be curious to see what they Oracle'd. Obviously not Confucianism, probably not anything after writing in fact, because I'm not sure they would actually have Writing.
My best guess is obviously Metal Casting of course; they could be going for the Colossus. This could have a lot of repercussions, anyway, probably influence our message to them too. Monarchy is also possible, we could watch out for notifications of Hereditary Rule though.
Yes, Mavericks have the Oracle.
Spoiler :
They seem to have slaved their population heavily to get it. Though I'm unsure and will have to check - does that indicate a 3 pop city (and their one-pop second city) or a four pop city and their second city? Or some other combo?
Edit: My guess is their capital is now at size three, so they slaved two population. Their second city, which they did get fairly early, is at size 2. 21000 + 6000 = 27000 pop.
Spoiler :
It will be curious to see what they Oracle'd. Obviously not Confucianism, probably not anything after writing in fact, because I'm not sure they would actually have Writing.
My best guess is obviously Metal Casting of course; they could be going for the Colossus. This could have a lot of repercussions, anyway, probably influence our message to them too. Monarchy is also possible, we could watch out for notifications of Hereditary Rule though.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Well. we can congratulate the Mavericks on their success with the Oracle, and we can suggest a trade along the lines of meditation-writing-alphabet for polytheism-priesthood-metal casting.
They most likely met another civ, as we are not spying on each other. We can agree with them to exchange information on the two civs we met, in order to build trust. We can say we want a tech-agreement between the two wonder people, and hint we are insecure about our other neighbors intentions. India needs stability on their southern side as well.
I think we need to wing it with a highwire strategy as Earthling called it, as we dont really know how the other dialogues are going yet. We also need Alphabet in order to stay in a four-way negotiation game, and if we dont, we are not in the drivers seat.
They most likely met another civ, as we are not spying on each other. We can agree with them to exchange information on the two civs we met, in order to build trust. We can say we want a tech-agreement between the two wonder people, and hint we are insecure about our other neighbors intentions. India needs stability on their southern side as well.
I think we need to wing it with a highwire strategy as Earthling called it, as we dont really know how the other dialogues are going yet. We also need Alphabet in order to stay in a four-way negotiation game, and if we dont, we are not in the drivers seat.
They are putting spy points on us. However I think they do have contact with another team and are just trying to lead us along. I would laugh if it turns out they feared us getting the Oracle and that's why they slaved it, as the slaving move was certainly a surprise, they lost a good bit of population.
I haven't worked out for sure if they got Metal Casting. I don't know exactly how that would effect a change in score, or military or something, so it's possible they got like Hereditary Rule. Still, definitely couldn't hurt to ask/confirm.
I know this is a combination of other thread things, but yes, trying to broker around and build an alliance is a good plan. I would give preference to working with the Vikings but at this point nothing is concrete - no other team has any other reasons against us and if it turns out we find some other alliance of 2-3 teams that could work. India at the same time still makes a good target, depending on who we find on their other side.
I haven't worked out for sure if they got Metal Casting. I don't know exactly how that would effect a change in score, or military or something, so it's possible they got like Hereditary Rule. Still, definitely couldn't hurt to ask/confirm.
I know this is a combination of other thread things, but yes, trying to broker around and build an alliance is a good plan. I would give preference to working with the Vikings but at this point nothing is concrete - no other team has any other reasons against us and if it turns out we find some other alliance of 2-3 teams that could work. India at the same time still makes a good target, depending on who we find on their other side.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Indeed, I think they slaved out of surprise. Yet, I think they are heading for Colossus and metal casting after this, as that would be the biggest boon. If they get colossus, they are indeed a military target. Yet, we need to make the first and final trade with India, before we decide to lock in with CDZ. For this we need Alphabet right now.
cav scout
The Continuum
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- Apr 4, 2008
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They whipped it because it's the Oracle- if you decide to go for it you don't mess around. I'd imagine they had some chops invested in it too. I agree that MC was their likely tech choice. But again, lets not assume anything!
@Provo- First and Final trade? ...What? Your thought process baffles me.
@Provo- First and Final trade? ...What? Your thought process baffles me.
I'm not sure exactly what that was referring to either. But anyway, I'd say give a little time for Mavericks to respond to our last envoy, before sending another right away about the Oracle -seems desperate. And also I don't know what they are thinking/assuming about us - or maybe another civ, maybe they thought they had competition or other worries about the Oracle. But no need to clarify everything if they are making some wrong calls.
We certainly can't assume anything though, except ruling out the impossible. They didn't Oracle Confucianism or any further along techs - which makes sense of course, because it's too early in the game for them to have teched that far.
However, they could even have some third tech, like Aesthetics for instance for whatever reason, if they researched Writing they could have picked up Aesthetics and decided to head for Literature or something. I would guess it's Metal Casting, that is a standard choice but until they confirm or we think we have some proof otherwise I wouldn't rule things out.
But again, let's see what they say, we certainly hinted about trade in our last message, and they'll only say to us what they are ready to say.
I do think, as far as the balance of things go - if India is insisting on a "builder" style and they go for Colossus or something too, if we can get another team around them ready to cut them off and isolate them, they would be a really juicy target to take down. But yes, overall I'm willing to be flexible on all diplomacy, in another 10-20 turns we could have met at least 5 of the total teams so we'd have a lot of choices ahead of us.
We certainly can't assume anything though, except ruling out the impossible. They didn't Oracle Confucianism or any further along techs - which makes sense of course, because it's too early in the game for them to have teched that far.
However, they could even have some third tech, like Aesthetics for instance for whatever reason, if they researched Writing they could have picked up Aesthetics and decided to head for Literature or something. I would guess it's Metal Casting, that is a standard choice but until they confirm or we think we have some proof otherwise I wouldn't rule things out.
But again, let's see what they say, we certainly hinted about trade in our last message, and they'll only say to us what they are ready to say.
I do think, as far as the balance of things go - if India is insisting on a "builder" style and they go for Colossus or something too, if we can get another team around them ready to cut them off and isolate them, they would be a really juicy target to take down. But yes, overall I'm willing to be flexible on all diplomacy, in another 10-20 turns we could have met at least 5 of the total teams so we'd have a lot of choices ahead of us.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Yeah, I already see India as a target. If they grow too long without a challenge, they will eventually outgrow us. We need to team up more with CDZ, yet, we know we can outrun them long term, unlike India. Its simply realpolitik in play.
Sorry for baffling you, but these are my thoughts on alliances.
cav scout
The Continuum
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Messages
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Well there is always such a finality and certainty to your pronouncements that seem massively premature and unwarranted to be honest. You take one tidbit of info from a snapshot in time and construct an elaborate reality (based largely on assumption). You then immediately discard that reality as soon as new contradictory info appears. It kinda makes my brain bleed.
It ok to not have the 100% solution all the time. Sometimes you have to wait for things to unfold.
It ok to not have the 100% solution all the time. Sometimes you have to wait for things to unfold.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Ok, I will try to be more murky and less defined from assumptions. I now understand more of the aggressive tone in a few posts, as it does not fit your writing/reading style. For some reasons, a lot of the other guys react differently, which is also ok by me. Given the resentment shown from your side, I am willing to end turnplaying this very weekend, and hand over the reins to another player (should be none of us for obvious reasons).
Also, I was not alone to believe it was Mavericks/CDZ from the border etc, and we moved past the border to avoid early contact, with the intent to avoid showing off details. This was discussed and acted on. I have also been democratic in the sense I have tried to strive for joint decision, and listen to all suggestions, like I endorsed your good diplo mail to CDZ.
I knew we had a few differences last team demogame, where I left quite early due to some of the same personally charged communiques coming out right now. As people can read from the Kazakhstan team in that game, it was by far the most troubled team internally, also after I left. I have tried to erase elements from that teams culture by joining this team, and hope we can continue the good civic way here as we have the first 44 turns.
As you have problems with me being too defined and directed in my thinking, which is about being open minded and come with clear proposals, I have the similar problem with your ways of trying to reject proposals for joint decisions, because these are too early. In a demogame it requires some procedure to establish proposals, joint decisions and votes. I think a lot of the players here want Alphabet decided on now, as you are virtually alone objecting to it. Some of us want Alphabet in order to get an idea of what we can bring to the table before CDZ meets Mavericks.
I also hope that we are not going to be insulting to each other, which will gradually weaken team cohesion as well as reducing the entertainment value.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Knowing the way Indiansmoke thinks and "behaves", and the way they try to bait some mud-throwing in the main forum, I would not be surprised that Maverick and Merlot met, and the nation north of Maverick is indeed Merlot. I may be wrong on this assumption, but I am presenting it as something that could be.
If this was a scenario, Merlot is past Mavericks, and possibly Amazon east of Merlot and Sirius north of CDZLAND. Would be interesting to see who is next.
If this was a scenario, Merlot is past Mavericks, and possibly Amazon east of Merlot and Sirius north of CDZLAND. Would be interesting to see who is next.
cav scout
The Continuum
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
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- 2,630
Well I'm not sure if Indiansmoke was baiting you there or not in the main forum... But either way your responses kinda turned it into a self-fulfilling prophesy. 
We should let that thread die quickly.
EDIT: on second thought I threw out a humorous post so it doesn't die out on a sour note.
We should let that thread die quickly.EDIT: on second thought I threw out a humorous post so it doesn't die out on a sour note.
I'd also put in a solid guess, as mentioned a few times before, that MERLOT met another team, or they are far more incompetent than is healthy. (eg. not having enough people active in their forums, no one able to take care of turnplaying duties etc...) They ran out the clock several days straight rather deliberately - and then only a couple of times India jumped in. It could be something else, but realistically:
-Every team easily could have contact with one neighbor/other team, possibly more
-I think this also makes sense in the context of MERLOT and their civ-setup, that once they made contact they slowed down the game clock doing stuff.
I decided not to post on that main forum thread; I'm not sure what the intentions were, but guess it's just a little funny if Provo didn't mind/maybe it could be harmless.
-Every team easily could have contact with one neighbor/other team, possibly more
-I think this also makes sense in the context of MERLOT and their civ-setup, that once they made contact they slowed down the game clock doing stuff.
I decided not to post on that main forum thread; I'm not sure what the intentions were, but guess it's just a little funny if Provo didn't mind/maybe it could be harmless.
If I may say, I don't think the difficulty comes from being too defined and directed in your thinking. The difficulty comes from not being about to distinguish between your statments of fact, reasonable assumptions and complete fabrications.
It's like the boy who cried wolf. If you state that every threat is dire and every assumption is fact then after you've turned out to be wrong a few times it's very difficult to keep taking the statements seriously, even if we want to. To continue with the analogy, if you would state what assumptions and facts lead you to conclude that there is a wolf out there then we could analyze those assumptions and the conclusion as a group and either determine some of them to be faulty or agree with them and go kill the wolf. Similarly, if you say you are 20% sure that there is a wolf out there and you turn out to be wrong a few times, you can still come back and say you are 80% sure there is a wolf and be taken seriously. If your only approach is to say you are 100% sure there is a wolf even though you are really only 20% sure, then when you are 80% sure you and you come to tell us then you can still only claim to be 100% sure, which by that point I've learned really only means 20%, so I don't take it seriously and the flock gets eaten.
It's not about any of your conclusions, some of which I have both agreed and disagreed with in the past. It's just that the manner in which you put them across is somewhat abrasive and not conducive to critical analysis at all.
I say all this just in the interests of healthy communication and don't mean it as a personal attack. The thing that drew me to this team in the first place was agreeing with your positions in threads in the team kaz forum after that game was over.
It's like the boy who cried wolf. If you state that every threat is dire and every assumption is fact then after you've turned out to be wrong a few times it's very difficult to keep taking the statements seriously, even if we want to. To continue with the analogy, if you would state what assumptions and facts lead you to conclude that there is a wolf out there then we could analyze those assumptions and the conclusion as a group and either determine some of them to be faulty or agree with them and go kill the wolf. Similarly, if you say you are 20% sure that there is a wolf out there and you turn out to be wrong a few times, you can still come back and say you are 80% sure there is a wolf and be taken seriously. If your only approach is to say you are 100% sure there is a wolf even though you are really only 20% sure, then when you are 80% sure you and you come to tell us then you can still only claim to be 100% sure, which by that point I've learned really only means 20%, so I don't take it seriously and the flock gets eaten.
It's not about any of your conclusions, some of which I have both agreed and disagreed with in the past. It's just that the manner in which you put them across is somewhat abrasive and not conducive to critical analysis at all.
I say all this just in the interests of healthy communication and don't mean it as a personal attack. The thing that drew me to this team in the first place was agreeing with your positions in threads in the team kaz forum after that game was over.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
As I said, I will strive to improve my communications in here, that is all I can do for now. Hopefully the clarity will be better when some of the ambiguity is gone, as we have been in such a difficult crossroads for a bit..
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I know Indiansmoke from the Kaz game. He has been insulting, baiting and so on from he came about to existence, his posting history is like that. I would be much surprised as he did it for innocent fun, he is simply not the type.
Right, well it's not just about Indiansmoke - it's the fact they supposedly have those "noble houses" and players waiting to "overthrow their King." Again, I do wish they have fun and contribute to a fun game, but I could see this going wrong.
However, if it turns out that is not the problem, I'd guess they are up to something related to diplomacy etc... on purpose. Still see eventually when we meet them, just guesses for now.
I hope we do hear back from Mavericks or CDZ around tomorrow, it'll be another day, and of course Mavericks are maybe waiting to decide what to say about the Oracle, that hadn't happened when we sent the last message.
However, if it turns out that is not the problem, I'd guess they are up to something related to diplomacy etc... on purpose. Still see eventually when we meet them, just guesses for now.
I hope we do hear back from Mavericks or CDZ around tomorrow, it'll be another day, and of course Mavericks are maybe waiting to decide what to say about the Oracle, that hadn't happened when we sent the last message.
CharlemagneXLII
Prince
If Merlot is the team beyond Mavericks, I think our (theoretical) plan to go against India wouldn't work. I just wouldn't trust them, with the stunt they pulled already, and with the fact that their "King" could change at any moment.
So we got another message from Mavericks; dunno who else checks the email but posting it here anyway:
My own thoughts/reactions:
-If they have no contact with another team, they are really in trouble for themselves, but we want to work that to our best advantage of course. So, we probably should tell them we will go after Alphabet and hope to trade, and being able to gain their tech down the line would be great. They confirmed Metal Casting but that's as expected - they probably knew that we knew that they had that
-If they are lying, I still don't see that we shouldn't play along, and if anything it gives us a card to play later in some situation. But I don't see major differences if they are lying (and have contact with the next team) vs. if they are not. Either way, we give them rough estimates on map locations and say we're willing to be peaceful and trade, etc...
-So this goes hand in hand - if they don't have contact that really would mean they don't have a boat out yet, and have very little map information. Thus I think we could rightly expect they will not be too much pressure settling that northern petal between us, and in general they will be behind in contact etc... all game. I am liking the current setup of getting trades done before they meet CDZ at least, and if India only has us and their other neighbor to work with, we should present ourselves as an attractive option that gives them little choice.
About other team layouts etc... - yeah, I don't hope MERLOT is too close by. MERLOT on the other side of the Vikings would be ideal
but I wouldn't trust them to be able to follow through working against India.
Still, there are a lot of things left to be put into place. On the next message, I would:
-Mention/discuss the Colossus - to us, it does not matter if they get it, and in fact this would almost be for the best, as it slows down any military or expansionist efforts by them.
-Give them slightly more info about where our boat came from/the map. We already hinted the rough direction of Continuum, so the real thing to do I think is confirm that it looks like there is indeed a large continent rather than many small islands. They already guessed, it's self-evident to any team that has halfway explored, and pretty much satisfies their queries for now.
-As for tech, let them know that we are going for Alphabet, say 15-20 turns depending on how things turn out. But since we probably will be, and this is the best avenue for trade, we might as well promote it.
A couple other things:
They've confirmed they have Rice, Gems, and Dyes. Makes it curious for what the other three teams have in commerce - maybe somebody else has silvers, making it 2x silver, 2x gem, 2x gold between the teams. Calendar resources are probably split between all teams. And I'd guess someone must have fish, maybe somebody has animal resource like pigs, so we have wheat, then there is rice, corn, fish, crabs, pigs?
In a related manner, in about 4-5 turns I would consider telling CDZ we have met India. It's just enough time that it doesn't seem to fast, it may also accompany news of meeting the team on the other side of CDZ, and mostly it just means we're not hiding things from them. Warning them about the Colossus or something could be a friendly move and help move things along there too.
Spoiler :
My own thoughts/reactions:
-If they have no contact with another team, they are really in trouble for themselves, but we want to work that to our best advantage of course. So, we probably should tell them we will go after Alphabet and hope to trade, and being able to gain their tech down the line would be great. They confirmed Metal Casting but that's as expected - they probably knew that we knew that they had that
-If they are lying, I still don't see that we shouldn't play along, and if anything it gives us a card to play later in some situation. But I don't see major differences if they are lying (and have contact with the next team) vs. if they are not. Either way, we give them rough estimates on map locations and say we're willing to be peaceful and trade, etc...
-So this goes hand in hand - if they don't have contact that really would mean they don't have a boat out yet, and have very little map information. Thus I think we could rightly expect they will not be too much pressure settling that northern petal between us, and in general they will be behind in contact etc... all game. I am liking the current setup of getting trades done before they meet CDZ at least, and if India only has us and their other neighbor to work with, we should present ourselves as an attractive option that gives them little choice.
About other team layouts etc... - yeah, I don't hope MERLOT is too close by. MERLOT on the other side of the Vikings would be ideal
but I wouldn't trust them to be able to follow through working against India.Still, there are a lot of things left to be put into place. On the next message, I would:
-Mention/discuss the Colossus - to us, it does not matter if they get it, and in fact this would almost be for the best, as it slows down any military or expansionist efforts by them.
-Give them slightly more info about where our boat came from/the map. We already hinted the rough direction of Continuum, so the real thing to do I think is confirm that it looks like there is indeed a large continent rather than many small islands. They already guessed, it's self-evident to any team that has halfway explored, and pretty much satisfies their queries for now.
-As for tech, let them know that we are going for Alphabet, say 15-20 turns depending on how things turn out. But since we probably will be, and this is the best avenue for trade, we might as well promote it.
A couple other things:
They've confirmed they have Rice, Gems, and Dyes. Makes it curious for what the other three teams have in commerce - maybe somebody else has silvers, making it 2x silver, 2x gem, 2x gold between the teams. Calendar resources are probably split between all teams. And I'd guess someone must have fish, maybe somebody has animal resource like pigs, so we have wheat, then there is rice, corn, fish, crabs, pigs?
In a related manner, in about 4-5 turns I would consider telling CDZ we have met India. It's just enough time that it doesn't seem to fast, it may also accompany news of meeting the team on the other side of CDZ, and mostly it just means we're not hiding things from them. Warning them about the Colossus or something could be a friendly move and help move things along there too.
