Emissaries can be improved

[Crag Hack]

As for the difficulty

Gazebo has stated that he won't rebalance the game around unusual settings, e.g. one city challenge or 43 Civs CP. Such settings may be fun but they come with their own drawbacks.

I don't see anything highly unusual about this. Exempting the emissaries from Open Borders should not be unusual or nothing like exotic or major. Possibly it is even not too hard from programming standpoint. Probably just writing short code saying emissaries can cross without Open Borders. The code already even exists for the missionaries, can be replicated without much headache imo

This is not a balance issue. It is more of a design issue. Balance can actually improve by this, and gameplay definitely will gain more value. No more idle emissaries for eras, more options and more freedom in managing emissaries.

 

[cammcken]

I don't know how giving free passage to diplomats will change the game. I will concede to the judgement of the veterans of this mod, whichever they decide. However, I don't think allowing passage will add more strategy or complexity to the City States mini-game. If I were playing under that condition, I would end up mindlessly building then sending, letting that pathfinding AI take over. In fact, I even do that now, to a certain degree, bearing in mind distance.

As others have said, keeping borders closed on default adds an extra element to the diplomacy game: you have a chance to reduce your diplomats' travel time or access new city states, in exchange for whatever advantages/disadvantages opening borders brings. For example, you might not want to open borders with a civ pursuing a cultural victory, or sending out archaeologists.

 

[Crag Hack]

I don't know how giving free passage to diplomats will change the game. I will concede to the judgement of the veterans of this mod, whichever they decide. However, I don't think allowing passage will add more strategy or complexity to the City States mini-game. If I were playing under that condition, I would end up mindlessly building then sending, letting that pathfinding AI take over. In fact, I even do that now, to a certain degree, bearing in mind distance.

As others have said, keeping borders closed on default adds an extra element to the diplomacy game: you have a chance to reduce your diplomats' travel time or access new city states, in exchange for whatever advantages/disadvantages opening borders brings. For example, you might not want to open borders with a civ pursuing a cultural victory, or sending out archaeologists.

I dare challenge you to mindlessly spam emissaries. Not only they require significant production but also a unique resource.

That is the point however. They are difficult expensive units and should not idle due to Open Borders issues.

 

[Recursive]

As for the difficulty

I don't see anything highly unusual about this. Exempting the emissaries from Open Borders should not be unusual or nothing like exotic or major. Possibly it is even not too hard from programming standpoint. Probably just writing short code saying emissaries can cross without Open Borders. The code already even exists for the missionaries, can be replicated without much headache imo

This is not a balance issue. It is more of a design issue. Balance can actually improve by this, and gameplay definitely will gain more value. No more idle emissaries for eras, more options and more freedom in managing emissaries.

I didn't say it was difficult (Summer Palace already does this), I said that balance changes do not usually take 43 Civs into account.

It is a balance issue, because it has a significant effect on the challenge of getting City-State allies. If you have to take long routes to avoid another civ's borders, a civ without this problem will have an advantage over you (of course, you can always declare war, but that has its own consequences). And I think that's fine. It makes diplomacy important, too.

 

[Crag Hack]

I wished it was as easy as just detouring a little bit to reach a CS. When the game advances every piece of land is seized and there is no walkaround possibility. And you get stuck for long periods and if you was playing for diplomatic options, well game over and ruined.

If I was to propose let's have the missionaries cross only under Open Borders then everyone will say I am crazy or ridiculous. But when I say hey let's have the same standard for the emissaries and let them transit freely then everyone say how absurd that is as well.

I don't get it. To me it is the same standard and only improves the gameplay.

 

[Recursive]

I wished it was as easy as just detouring a little bit to reach a CS. When the game advances every piece of land is seized and there is no walkaround possibility. And you get stuck for long periods and if you was playing for diplomatic options, well game over and ruined.

If I was to propose let's have the missionaries cross only under Open Borders then everyone will say I am crazy or ridiculous. But when I say hey let's have the same standard for the missionaries and let them transit then everyone say how absurd that is.

I don't get it. To me it is the same standard and only improves the gameplay.

a) You shouldn't have too much trouble with Open Borders unless you're neglecting diplomacy (and if you're going for a diplomatic victory, neglecting diplomacy isn't a good idea),
b) You're probably having so much trouble with other civs' borders because you're playing with 43 Civs,
c) I didn't call your idea absurd, I just like things how they are now - and a number of others clearly agree,
d) Missionaries have an attrition penalty,
e) "Game over and ruined" is hyperbole. Besides, if you're playing with 43 Civs, diplomacy with major civs matters a lot more than City-States.

Additional note: it's a reason to request Open Borders from the other civ - and if they open their borders to you, they get a Tourism bonus. So it's by all means a balance issue.

 

[Crag Hack]

a) You shouldn't have too much trouble with Open Borders unless you're neglecting diplomacy (and if you're going for a diplomatic victory, neglecting diplomacy isn't a good idea),
b) You're probably having so much trouble with other civs' borders because you're playing with 43 Civs,
c) I didn't call your idea absurd, I just like things how they are now - and a number of others clearly agree,
d) Missionaries have an attrition penalty,
e) "Game over and ruined" is hyperbole. Besides, if you're playing with 43 Civs, diplomacy with major civs matters a lot more than City-States.

Additional note: it's a reason to request Open Borders from the other civ - and if they open their borders to you, they get a Tourism bonus. So it's by all means a balance issue.

Let's just say it. I suck at this game right ? Thanks a bunch.

I hate when the modders blame the player rather than taking suggestions into consideration and seek ways to lift this prohibitive restriction on the emissaries

 

[Recursive]

Let's just say it. I suck at this game right ? Thanks a bunch.

I hate when the modders blame the player rather than taking suggestions into consideration and seek ways to lift this prohibitive restriction on the emissaries

Your suggestion has been considered (seeing as a number of other players have contributed their thoughts on it). What I'm reading in your post here, which "and seek ways to lift this prohibitive restriction" seems to make clear, is "I hate that no one is agreeing with me". Others like the state of game balance how it is now.

If you don't like it, no one's forcing you to play. You can try playing on a lower difficulty, or without 43 Civs, or by beelining for the Summer Palace, or by modding the publicly-available DLL so the game is more to your liking. But we're not going to rebalance the game because one person has trouble with the mechanics, angrily demands that they be changed to accommodate him, and dismisses everyone else's feedback.

 

[Crag Hack]

I have alternative proposal which may suit everyone.

How about having a National Wonder which allows emissaries to cross without Open Borders ?

Not a World Wonder, but National Wonder. This way the player can choose whether to construct it or not.

And let's have the wonder as early as possible and not too late in eras so that diplo Civs can benefit from their UA

 

[Recursive]

I have alternative proposal which may suit everyone.

How about having a National Wonder which allows emissaries to cross without Open Borders ?

Not a World Wonder, but National Wonder. This way the player can choose whether to construct it or not.

And let's have the wonder as early as possible and not too late in eras so that diplo Civs can benefit from their UA

There is already a National Wonder that does this - the Foreign Bureau, available at Radio.

Spoiler :

 

[Crag Hack]

Your suggestion has been considered (seeing as a number of other players have contributed their thoughts on it). What I'm reading in your post here, which "and seek ways to lift this prohibitive restriction" seems to make clear, is "I hate that no one is agreeing with me". Others like the state of game balance how it is now.

If you don't like it, no one's forcing you to play. You can try playing on a lower difficulty, or without 43 Civs, or by beelining for the Summer Palace, or by modding the publicly-available DLL so the game is more to your liking. But we're not going to rebalance the game because one person has trouble with the mechanics, angrily demands that they be changed to accommodate him, and dismisses everyone else's feedback.

Let's not derail the thread with personal qualifications. Back to the topic

It seems actually that there is a conformity in both camps. It seems we agree mostly but disagree on the fine details. Both camps agree Open Borders should be lifted on emissaries. However they disagree on what conditions. Some say it should happen with Summer Palace while some say should happen with a National Wonder earlier as the chances of missing on a World Wonder are high.

 

[Crag Hack]

There is already a National Wonder that does this - the Foreign Bureau, available at Radio.

Spoiler :

View attachment 551642

Radio too late imo. That is really endgame and missed potential whole game. Emissaries work slowly and need to start earlier eras to do their job.

 

[JLazeZ]

I wouldn't mind moving Foreign Bureau into the Industrial era to lessen the gap between it and the Summer Palace.


@Crag Hack On another note, if you at all want people to take your proposals seriously you should stop being so defensive about your ideas. Especially since you've misread the majority of people's comments here.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I have alternative proposal which may suit everyone.

Except that you don't seem to be listening to other people, you are just saying how you want things to be .

I am not opposed to testing diplo units being able to cross borders earlier but it will affect game balance in certain areas and we need to talk about that.

Personally I tend to have very little issue getting to city-states outside of certain game phases. Emissaries turn up at Writing, in the early Classical Era. At this point there is often still gaps between cities in my games so the risks/barriers tend to relate to the geography of the game. I.e. is there deep water in the way, and are there barbarians that might try to nab my unit? It seems reasonable to me to have closed borders apply to diplo units at least to begin with. As more cities are settled and borders expand, they tend to block off travel and perhaps by the late Classical some of my emissaries do get stuck. However, during this period there also tend to be city-state quests so it's normal for me to be allies or at least friends with one or more city-states that I've met. Not much changes in the early Medieval, but then Open Borders turns up at Civil Service and suddenly things can get moving again. People tend to accept open border requests unless I've done something to really piss them off. Some people won't though which seems reasonable for Medieval diplomacy IMO. Then we hit the Renaissance and at Astronomy we get another tool: the ability for all embarked units to move through ocean tiles. My games always have large bodies of water somewhere so now I can usually just go around countries which are being antisocial for whatever reason. Also worth mentioning in the Renaissance is the Summer Palace though, which in case you are having trouble lets you move through borders freely! I know on some settings getting wonders if difficult but they are an important part of the game. I'm vaguely aware that at some point after this I can move diplo units through closed borders but it's never a big deal for me as I usually have some other way to get there before then.

My settings are Huge Map, Epic Speed, and some city-states turn up on islands near the coast while other are in the ocean (but you can usually most with triremes). How do other people's experiences compare?

 

[vyyt]

@Crag Hack , I think this was a conscious decision to create spheres of influence near each civ in the beginning of the game, same as removing the silly bribing of unreachable distant CSs with money. When the world becomes more globalized later on, the Diplo units gain the ability to cross other civs' territories. I personally like it this way. The CSD is more than 10 years old and it has been discussed by many many player-testers.

Of course there's nothing wrong with discussing it all over again, but judging by the reactions in this thread, it seems that most people are content with the current state of CSD.

If it does not suite your taste or the specific game setup of "your camp", there's an easy solution for you, look up the Foreign bureau NW in the game files and move it to an earlier tech (you do not need to be a programmer for this, you just change the TECH_ parameter, maybe also the Cost so it is not too expensive for the era).

 

[azum4roll]

This is what the map looks like in Information Era (Communitu_79a v1.16.0 Standard settings). Only one CS is blocked off by major civ borders. None if you can pass through ice.

 

[Deljade]

Considering that free passage to emissaries and archaeologists changes the game, especially archaeologists please no access to them, why don't you edit your own CPP mod to be more accommodating to your 43 civ setting? Sound worth it if you are going to enjoy the game that much more. Hell if it's really simple someone in here could tell you what to edit. These aren't changes I want to see at the base mod atm though, and I am a big fan of huge tectonic myself, just 15 civs instead of 43.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I am a big fan of huge tectonic myself, just 15 civs

Do you have any screenshots from tectonic games? What does the geography looks like?

 

[adan_eslavo]

I recommend Tectonic mapscript for the 43Civ nerds like me with the following settings

Size - Huge
Continents - Standard
Land - More
Islands - Abundant
Sea - Low
Tectonics - Fast
Plates - Standard

I play only this setting after extensive testing. Provides the best and most balanced maps. Very unpredictable shape big plus. It is very important for me that each map is unique unpredictable shape. City States will be placed nested between Civs. There could be few on remote islands but most are nested all over the place.

Plenty of land and sea and you will have to balance land and naval armies accordingly.

How many civs can be placed on such map?

 

[Deljade]

Do you have any screenshots from tectonic games? What does the geography looks like?

Haven't actually played terribly many games, usually on epic speed as I prefer to savour the map and intricacies of each era.
The two biggest pros* about tectonics for me is the randomness which makes it very varied and replayable and the mechanics which represent real tectonic plates, the maps look like actual planets instead of a stage meant to play a game. That last one mostly appeals to my roleplaying side, it's just fun to visualise and rationalise the geographic features and continent shapes. Though it might be less balanced than a more predictable script. I'll attach some maps I could easily find, many games are in my girlfriend's computer so I can't really get the maps atm : (