Emperor Assistance:

[dojoboy]

Hey, if any emperor level vets out there would take a look at my first serious (meaning I'm gonna play it until I win or lose) try at an emperor level game and throw me some 'bones,' I'd appreciate it.

Its a small, average continents size map (5 million y/o) w/ France, England, America, and India as opponents. I'm China.

I started timidly I would say, just wanting to establish some towns first and get a feel for the level. I've built temples and barracks in most settlements. Currently, I'm in a war w/ America and captured one of Lincoln's towns to my south and razed another (automatically razed). As of right now, America is dislodged from the small continent. However, Engand has a town down south as well. And, Elizabeth is strong (many wonders), as is France (going by their current score of course). I don't yet have galleys to cross the strait to land attack America's homeland (Oooh, I hope Tom Ridge isn't surfing the boards.) Its 440 AD.

Thanks in advance for any advice you may have for me.

 

[Txurce]

Dojoboy, I wasn't able to download your game, just as I wasn't able to download Shogoth's deity game a few weeks ago. Troubleshooting, I once again downloaded Buddhabubba's GOTM3, without a problem. I have no idea what's the difference - they're all .sav files that should require no retitling, and BB's didn't. Now here's a guess: you're uploading an OSX file, and my 9.1 system can't read it. Is this possible? Are you on OSX? And if so, could you run a test by switching to classic mode and uploading the game file that way?

Now, back to your game... sight unseen, of course. You sound as if you're aming progress, and intend to remain competitive by warring (which is a good idea). Building galleys for an invasion early in the game is usually a bad idea, because it'll take a long time, and only gain you a few corrupt cities. England and France won't be able to stand up to the Rider, so one option you have is to build horsemen you can upgrade later, and beeline for chivalry.

The argument against this is that you are way behind in tech, and the other guys seem to research faster. If this is probably the case, then you want to attack one of them and pick up some tech in exchange for peace. The best way to do this is to mass your archers or horsemen near a couple of their cities, taking two in the first turn. Move jointly on a third city, and take that one. Be efficient about defending the fort, but not overly-efficient... if you have horses, you can use a mobile defense, attacking his invaders before they hit your towns. Your opponent should agree to peace in as early as five turns from the start of the war. If need be, repeat the plan with a different civ.

You may also want to consider an alliance. In its favor is security. Against it is that your reputation is committed to a 20-turn deal. If you don't care about rep, or are willing to fight until you destroy your opponent - the likely outcome of an alliance - go ahead.

 

[dojoboy]

Txurce, no, its under 9.2. However, I don't think the system matters since the software was written for both. Did you rename it .SAV? If you PM me your email I'll attach it to ya, its not that big.

You advice is pretty much what I've followed. America was destroyed by France, after I got a couple techs from Lincoln in a peace deal. I landed several swordsmen and settled a town where an America town once was. However, I was then attacked by France --- I guess because I was on their way to the English. I lost the settlement on their continent but took a city from them on mine. Also, I captured and disbanded (couldn't hold it) a city of theirs which hand an iron and horse in its radius. Joan contacted me first for peace and gave me their territory map + 2 techs. France is huge, maybe a "Killer AI" in the making. France soon declared war on England because Elizabeth settled in the spot I disbanded the captured French township. I immediately allied w/ France against England because I could get techs from Joan in the agreement. I captured the last foreign settlement (England) on my continent (mine all mine). It has horses so now I'm finally getting to build horsemen for a rider upgrade. Currently researching chivalry. I've met Rome recently, who is smaller than me. India is still out there, but Gandhi has contact w/ the other civs.

I still feel unsure, but I'm trusting in the AIs consistent behavior on all levels. I'm at least two techs behind France & England. I'm more than willing to whore myself from side to side for techs. Are you sure a rider-rush is possible? They just seem so impenetrable right now. Oh yeah, I got a GL fighting France and chose to rush the FP v. building an army. I hope this was the right decision for this game.

 

[Shogoth]

sorry, i don't have a lot of time right now.

intrestingly i also have os 9.2!

 

[Txurce]

Shogoth, maybe I can't open 9.2. Anyway, I look forward to your most recent save.

Back to your game: other than going offshore , which I think is a waste of precious resources so early in the game, it sounds like you're doing fine. Riders do well enough against pikemen that you shouldn't have any problems for a while. The only time the AI is close to being impenetrable is in the late game, when they stock up on infantry and MI. At this point, you will almost certainly have an edge against any individidual city if you attack with 5 or 6 riders. I would use the same prior strategy: a total of 12 or so riders against two cities, with more reinforcements coming... enhanced by the GA that your first kill will gain you. The riders you're building provide an excellent defense against counterattack, because of their speed and your road system... at worst, you'll need to rush one or two to taker out invaders. Just decide ahead of time what your goal in the war is: total conquest, strategic resources, a wonder city, or just a crippling blow and a tech gain. And keep in mind that the French tend to favor their UU more than most people, and musketeers are tougher on defense. For this reason, you'll want to knock the French down a peg sooner than later, unless you plan to save them for cavalry (which is an option).

By the way, your use of the GL was a tossup, in my opinion. A rider army would have been great, setting you up for domination, but the FP will help you crank out a lot more riders (again, further enhanced by the GA). You will be the most productive civ in the game during your GA. If most of your cities are cranking out vet riders, you won't lose.

 

[Txurce]

Okay, Dojoboy, I opened your 960AD save. First, your posts didn't state that you started on a one-civ continent, commonly called an island. That is an extremely difficult starting position on emperor, let alone for a novice at this level.

This tough start probably encouraged you to do the wrong thing on emperor: play conservatively. At this level, you need to either warmonger early on, or aggressively build libraries, and probably go for the GL. Playing conservative seemed safe, because you had the advantage of numbers on your home turf, but left you with insufficient room to expand, and way behind in science as well.

As of 960AD, you're in a pretty difficult situation. You're still stuck on your island, built your FP there so any cities you build elsewhere will mostly be corrupt, and you are behind almost an entire era in tech to the French and English, who are already in the industrial era. This means that you're unlikely to catch up in tech before someone else launches their spaceship, and that by the time your riders reach the mainland, they'll be obsolete (facing riflemen)... so forget a fast domination victory.

What can you do? Stop building those swordsmen, since they're already outdated. Build a city in that bare spot on the big continent near all those resources, and stuff it with pikemen so the English can't take it from you. Conquer the English islands, whose defenders will likely not be many or upgraded, and Rome, which is small and still in your era. Find India and, if they're soft, go after them. You'll be enjoying a GA, which can be used to either pump out lots of riders to do the above. On the downside, it might be hard to hold the English cities, due to the culture gap, and you may not reach any of them in time with your riders, since you realistically need caravels (astronomy).

Since you're pretty safe on your island - the AI's pre-modern invasions suck - you could be an opportunist and switch sides as soon as possible, so the French don't get too big. In this case, your goal would be to pick off a city here and there with your riders, because as I said, they'll soon be outdated, and you won't be able to take out most of either civ... unless you let the French soften up the English first. If you follow this strategy, pick up an MPP with the French, so that they don't turn on you when they're done with the English. (Either way, you want an MPP with either France or England, because they will mostly fight themselves rather than bothering to sail over to you.)

Given the difficulty of winning by domination when so far behind in a small-continent world, I would probably play for the space race. Think about building your infrastructure while in a GA (building only enough riders to put you into a GA, plus gain you a few offshore cities, which will probably have resources you can use later). Keep your science level at zero for now, and buy your way back into the space race... it's faster at first. Then keep the French happy (and at war) via an MPP, and - safe on your island - gun for space. There's a slim chance you'll nip the French. If it's at all close, you could marshal an armored invasion force and take out their capital.

 

[Pigumon]

I could not download the save file, either. I thought the same thing that version of OS could affect. Mine is OS 9.0, the oldest.
I would like to know what version of OS BuddhaBubba uses.

 

[Txurce]

Dojoboy, I couldn't resist playing your game for a while from the 960AD save. I immediately quit researching, and traded Rome for chivalry, their territory map, and contact with India. I then switched those swordsmen builds over to riders. (And I dropped out of "governor" mode, which was causing starvation to avoid disorder! With nine cities, I would NEVER use the governor!)

In the meantime, I steadily bought theology, education and astronomy, which allowed me to convert two galleys into caravels. I sailed four riders and two spearmen to the English island north of China, where the French had already taken one city. The riders encountered a cavalryman (!), but took both cities, and commenced a GA after making peace with England for a tech. (Across the world, India took out Rome.)

The GA was spent entirely on building infrastructure in the cities, while totally developing the land. The extra gold a GA provides allowed me to reach the industrial age around 1335, less than a century after the GA ended. Somewhere in the process, one of my two English cities flipped back.

At this point I paid for steam power, and started building a palace in Canton. I researched medicine myself, in the hope of trading it, but was beaten out by a few turns. I then saved my gold, paid for electricity, and researched scientific method. The AI got there a few turns ahead, but when I researched it, Canton was only seven turns from building the TOE, and snagged the key space-race wonder in 1525.

At this point I traded atomic theory to the three AI, and caught up in tech, plus tons of gold, except for the Corporation. I traded electronics to India for the Corporation plus around 60gpt. France and England were broke, and don't seem to have enough to trade for it from India, either.

I'm now researching radio, figuring India won't go there, and can trade that as well. I should be able to stay close enough in tech that I'll build the spaceship without too much trouble. On the military front, I'll upgrade my riders to cavalry next turn, and my spearmen to riflemen. That's enough to fend off an invasion until the AI has tanks... and by then I will, too. A dozen tanks will be more than enough to defend China, so I can devote myself completely to the space race.

 

[dojoboy]

Wow!

I'm very glad you played it. This is why I'd like to get some succession games going after our GOTM. I'm going to play mine out and then see how my luck goes w/ your saved game.

 

[Txurce]

I see your point about succession games now. I played this out more or less as as planned. I refused to pay England some tribute for the hell of it, which led to war. I pretty much ignored their raids, quickly losing my one remaining island city, and the southeastern-most one on my continent due to sheer sloppiness (and undefended cities!). Eventually I got India and France to pile on; India took all the English islands, France the mainland. France was more open to trading than India, but I had to research all but two of the modern techs. I launched in 1920, with France having built three SS parts, and having started four others.

 

[dojoboy]

Good job, Txurce. I'm saved at 1545 AD. Unfortunately, France built the ToE in 1495 AD. I think my "fat is cooked." I dropped my science output and bought techs vigorously. I even risked a war v. England & India (MPP). I did have a MPP w/ France which helped. I captured the entire northern island from England w/ riders. When I offered Elizabeth peace, she gave up only one tech, and I had to offer some gold in the deal. At the moment, I'm still at war w/ India because I attacked an English city that flipped on me after I captured it. I forgot about their damn MPP. Probably would have done it any way.

I'm probably going to sit on it now that our GOTM is out. I'm still going to play your saved game.

 

[Txurce]

Dojoboy, that is one tough game on which to make your emperor bones. Yeah, you've probably lost... but your best shot is to buy tech and hope that the AI takes too long to go for space. You could help your cause by making sure everyone's at war while you're safe on your island... and if you manage to get close in tech, by researching the ecology/synthetics line, which the AI neglects (as well as nuclear power).

 

[dojoboy]

Okay Txurce, I trashed the last one. When I opened it up after the GOTM, I freaked. It was too much like the GOTM, eeriely so.

This time, I chose a small pangea map, playing as the Egyptians. I expanded really well, and peacefully. However, I was shocked once I got France's territory map. Man, those are some bonuses. Well, I soon decided to engage Rome to my north in a conflcit to see who would be BMOC (Big Man On Campus). After capturing two cities and razing two (too small), I agreed to peace with Caesar for techs, etc. I settled three more townships. India owned three cities near my borders. Since these were distant from Gandhi's homeland, I seized the opportunity. A few turns later, they were mine as well as a couple more techs. France is the big dog; however, I've raced up the histograph to second, about 250 points behind Joan. I'm debating whether or not to seize Joan's two cities to the east of my capital. I may get some techs plus let Joan know she must respect my interests. Plus, I'd like to get a GL. I'm building the FP in a northern township. What do you think? Should I put it off. I don't know if I'll be warring the holw game. Or, should I? At least try to take my continent. The problem is I have no iron.

I've missed out on all the early GWs.

 

[Txurce]

Dojoboy, the following is based on the fact that you do have iron - you couldn't build a pikeman otherwise. (I confirmed it with your trade advisor. The iron is probably on a city site, so you can't see it.)

This is an excellent start for an emperor game, where it's very hard to be competitive early, except the way you did it... by warring. More specifically, you have a good-sized civ with a high population and solid culture. Your 12 horsemen and two WCs are an excellent start to building knights and go on the offensive, should you so choose. (If you do, switch from gunpowder to chivalry now, and crank up the research!) Where you're dragging is in production and literacy. I'd switch to republic asap, to maximize those libraries you're building. Production will obviously improve as soon as you mine more tiles, and you have the industrious workers to do it.

Taking the two French cities is a good idea, but expect to fight off one lame invasion before gaining favorable terms. The real question is whether to build the FP where you're building it. I'd put it in exactly the same place if I were going for space, and once you take the French cities, you likely won't need any more land to get there. As you point out, the alternative is to conquer the north - which you can largely do with knights - and hope for a GL that would allow a more northerly FP placement, covering your larger empire.

The question you have to ask yourself is, do you feel lucky?

One last thought: if you do invade the Romans after taking the French, I'd play it safe and ally with India. Otherwise, you could find your resources stretched too far.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by Txurce
The question you have to ask yourself is, do you feel lucky?

Great line, but a bit unnerving!

I'm going to remove the French presence on my continent. Matters concerning Rome are of little concern. I'll allow history to unfold. I won't hesitate to encourage Caesar to comply with Egyptian hegemony. I feel I need to establish the empire on France's continent. Those Indian cities look like a perfect starting point.

Iron? Doh! I new I could build pikemen --- never put 2 & 2 together.

Is it plausible to launch a s/s before the AI on emperor from my present position? I've lost a s/r on warlord before, a while back.

 

[Txurce]

You can win the SR on emperor with an Egyptian 15-city civ. To hedge your bet, you could take some Roman territory to the north, but given the placement of your FP, it will be relatively corrupt. Corruption is the reason why your core cities are what drive your civ... and why I believe all you need is a big-enough core. I think you just about have it now.

To go for a SR win, you have to focus on one thing: staying close in the tech race. Even if you're a little behind, you'll outhustle the AI in the building of your ship. To reach that point, it's a matter of generating as many beakers as possible, and researching unpopular techs to trade for others, all for one goal: the TOE wonder. That will give you a tremendous tech and gold boost, with which you can coast downhill, be gradually overtaken, and still win the SR.

Your secondary concern with this builder strategy is a minimally effective defense. I'm pretty radical about this, but make do with one defender per city and a dozen mounted units (or less) to counterattack. In modern times the cavalry is replaced by armor, and railroads allow you to arguably have no defenders at all, just a tank-based invader-repelling task force! If I feel like splurging, I also add two bombers and one destroyer to each of my coastal cities, which allows me to cripple warships and sink transports before they unload.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by Txurce
Your secondary concern with this builder strategy is a minimally effective defense. I'm pretty radical about this, but make do with one defender per city and a dozen mounted units (or less) to counterattack. In modern times the cavalry is replaced by armor, and railroads allow you to arguably have no defenders at all, just a tank-based invader-repelling task force! If I feel like splurging, I also add two bombers and one destroyer to each of my coastal cities, which allows me to cripple warships and sink transports before they unload.

Are you not constantly being extorted by big-army civs this way? It makes sense, but it appears risky.

 

[Txurce]

The short answer, of course, is that it works for me. Now for the longer one:

Keep in mind that most civs quit warring so frequently when they reach the Middle Ages, and extortion is usually cheap. If you get invaded anyway, the forces dribble into your land in a manner that allows you to whack them first - if you have two-move units. Seaborne invasions are a joke in this era, but even those from a neighbor can be handled by propping up your border cities, and having the counterstrike team at the ready.

Given that you've never done this before, you may want to experiment with it by replaying a game you saved at the end of the initial expansion phase, and see how you do until the advent of the railroad... at which point there's NO excuse for a big defensive army!

 

[Sid]

Thank you gentle folks for a most enlightening read.

 

[dojoboy]

Alright Txurce, I've managed to get myself in position to win my first emperor game, thanks to your sound advice.

Recent events:

Rome, England, and France gang up on India. I stay out of it to produce gpt and buy techs, which I do. India is eventually wiped out. I finally buy my way into the modern age where I begin to research fission. As this is taking place, France declares war on me. I capture two of France's cities, one of which is destroyed because it was size one (once India's). Eventually France agrees to peace, paying me 50 gold. I reach fission but do not trade it because the other civs are building SETI and I don't want them to switch over. I, on the other hand, switch a prebuild palace over to the UN, 12 turns to go. I fiddle around with Memphis' citizens, 9 turns to go. With two turns remaining, I sign MPPs w/ Rome and England. During the last turn before the UN, I demand France to remove some units in my lands or else declare war. Yep, they did, which is what I wanted. Rome and England declare war on France.

Now, France is ranked first in points, I'm second, then Rome & England. UN vote is taken and I receive two votes, France one, and Rome one. Rome voted for itself! I was surprised thay got to be a candidate,, but oh well, I won. Well, no I did not! The vote was declared inconclusive because there was no clear majority. Uh? 2-1-1 Pretty clear to me. I'm miffed. Do you have any idea why Rome was a candidate?

England is not going to last long against France, so there goes my only advantage. I guess I'm in for a s/r, but I'm 2 important techs behind. I'll need to stock up on nukes as soon as I can and station transports outside of capitals once this little war is over.

I'll email it to ya.