Emperor Cookbook Shaka

[Ambro]

@Ambro
Prince>Emperor is indeed a huge jump! You should still do fine in the cookbook so I encourage you to continue. Whatever you learn here can be used at lower levels.
Normal>Epic is indeed a funny feeling. Having just moved back from Epic (to Normal) it kinda feels awkward now, especially the workers. It does make the game easier though.
About economy... as long as you have Pottery and/or Writing you'll be fine on Emperor. Moreover, being Shaka the Ikhandi are wonderful for reducing early maintenance.

Thanks for the positive comments Kossin. I'm more than happy to have constructive criticism too though.

Spoiler :

I do have pottery in my save (and thought I had more than 3 workers but can't see them). Further I have no idea what my worker is doing 1 se of my capital, appears to be building something but god knows why I'd be building something there right now.
Probably should have gone writing before sailing for open borders and libraries but I really want to get on that island asap and I was assuming that on emperor Gilg would pick up writing early and open borders (and hopefully therefore relationship bonus and trade routes but that appears to not have worked out very well at all).

 

[kossin]

@Ambro

Spoiler :

You have to wait for Immortal-Deity for the AIs to get Writing before you usually. At least from my experience, I've rarely seen an AI with Writing on Emperor before me.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay i took the plunge.

Spoiler :

I settled in place and teched to AH while building a warrior.

Once city reached size 2 and i finished warrior I built a worker (15 turn build).

I sent my warrior and scout exploring. Eventually losing the scout to a bear! Grrrr.

Warrior survived long enough to worker steal off Gilga. (Big no no leaving a resource on Ai border on a cookbook! Hehe!!)

Teched from AH to mining to BW then to Myst.

Chopped out first settler with 3 workers. 2nd soon followed.

I have no idea how Gilga got to 3 cities so quick!!! Luckily I was there to pillage a few resources although he has produced a few archers so I cant get the 2 further workers I stole home. He will take peace now and still has 3 cities and no copper hooked up yet. He does have a worker left.

I have built monuments in most cities. My 5th city (to be) has a settler near location ready to build it.

The copper city was tough. As i didnt build Stone Henge I had no real way to reach border pop 2 easily. So I built on hills below copper.

5 cities by 1475/1450 isnt bad really for Shaka. Impi are on the way but gilga has lots of archers.

Photos

Spoiler :

Map

Cities

units

@ Soirana

Spoiler :

Having just played my round and looked at spoilers I notice someone is 2 turns off TGL. Poor you!!!! lol Foiled again!!! It would seem rude to vote for that save later. In my heart I couldnt see shak building a lighthouse anyway.

 

[pholtz]

I'm going to start comparing the saved games to mine, not because mine is the best, far from it, but because I know it better. I'm looking at techs researched, city location, economy and worked tiles. Then of the ones 'ranked' higher than mine, I can pick my three votes.

@Mike(mjg5591)

Spoiler :

Our capitals and second city are in the exact same place. Your third city blocked, mine was for the copper... toss up. The main problem I see with your game is lack of connection between your cities, either with roads or sailing. Because of this you're a bit behind tech wise.

@duelmaster

Spoiler :

A different approach than mine. GL instead of copper, Sailing instead of roads. Might be a bit behind in tech, but the GL will correct that shortly. You are fog busting, I prefer just fighting off the occasional barb for the experience, and if they found a city, it might be where we want it. But with you not going after the copper, we may need that fog busting. Probably better than mine because of the early GL.

@kossin

Spoiler :

Good location of capital, and second city. Copper city poorly placed. I agree with others that an early rush with Impi's, Axes only is probably out. Not sure why, but you are a bit behind in tech, and with only 3 cities have negative cash flow at 50%. For these reasons I would have to rank it a bit lower.

@Narres(Africa)

Spoiler :

Good city locations, but no connections between them. I think this late you need either roads or sailing. Good job on keeping up on the tech without the connections. You are building cottages a few turns earlier than me. But with three cities you are even at 40%, that's a bit worse. In my opinion, a bit too much fog busting. An occasional Barbarian doesn't hurt, if you are ready for him. I would have to rank it a bit lower.

@smitsk

Spoiler :

Four cities, same as me. But you are getting even at %20 so the economy isn't as good. I like your copper city (same as mine , even up to the number of turns until border pop). But because of your economy, you are at least a tech and a half behind. Not sure why. The choice of the city near Bulawayo for you, uMg for me is tough. I like you getting more production, but you give up the cows. I think 1W or 1N of the corn are better spots. My position 2W of corn isn't that good in production . Have to rank it lower because of research/economy.

I'm sorry, that's all I have time for now. I'll try to look at more saves after work. One problem with some of the saves that I see is the lack of the personal name on the save.

 

[Gumbolt]

Slow down Pholtz not at voting yet!!!

 

[pholtz]

Sorry, if I'm too quick on this, but with so many games, I've got to start looking at them. Feel free to ignore the spoilers until voting occurs.

Comment/question on GLH:

Spoiler :

Looking back over some of the comments, I notice that some think that duelmaster's game with the GLH only 2 turns away is a game breaker. I'm ignorant enough that while I see the GLH as a very good thing to have, is it that big of a deal? If another game gets voted to continue, I would like to see duelmaster's game carried on to the next stopping point just to see the difference.

Edit: spoiled

 

[Gumbolt]

Sorry, if I'm too quick on this, but with so many games, I've got to start looking at them. Feel free to ignore the spoilers until voting occurs.

Looking back over some of the comments, I notice that some think that duelmaster's game with the GLH only 2 turns away is a game breaker. I'm ignorant enough that while I see the GLH as a very good thing to have, is it that big of a deal? If another game gets voted to continue, I would like to see duelmaster's game carried on to the next stopping point just to see the difference.

That should really be in a spoiler.

Spoiler :

We used GLH last ECook book game so I am quite opposed to it really. Wont lean much using it each game. Should of banned it really.

 

[Nares]

Edited

 

[dualmaster]

Regarding my strategy:

Spoiler :

This is the first Cookbook I've done/followed.....I had no idea there was so much hate for GLH! I understand where you're all coming from though.

Maybe I should submit a new save with mass impis just to please this bloodthirsty crowd

 

[pawelo]

@ dualmaster

Spoiler :

I don't hate GLH as the wonder - don't get me wrong. I just think that on this type of game it's a breaker. Coupled with Organized and TOA it would have been too much
On of my first games on Immortal as Hannibal I managed this crazy move GLH + TOA and early courthouses, plus aiming for his UB for even more TR money, and this was it - the game was won despite less land than other AIs. Tech-edge, rifles, home run.
Anyway, cottage & Ikhanda might just work like the GLH - especially given the fact that you have only two coastal, so the impact is less than if you'd have six-seven shore-cities.

 

[smitsk00]

@pholtz

Spoiler :

I took a look at your save. You did almost exactly what my first instinct was. I changed my mind when I thought about the production restrictions on those sites and decided to go FE/SE and wait to lay cottages. I think your game has a lot of potential , but you need to get another city or two up stat so that you can actually build an army fast enough, if only for defense. Hill by the fish and 2S of the western corn seem best. I do worry about Barbs from the west when copper isn't online yet.

Also, in my defense:

Spoiler :

I agree that the % is a bit low. In most games, cash from huts would let you deficit tech into Writing (or at least much closer) by this point in the game. I forgot we had huts off.

However, in my defence, Fishing will come next turn if you push up the slider, so I am not much further away from Writing (then masonry>Math>Construction) than you are. Also, the difference between 20% and 40% is only 4gpt. Working a couple riverside tiles and the fish/crabs and getting Ikhandas up will get my save to close to 40-50% in 20 turns max. Writing should also be in then and libraries can be prechopped in 3 of my 4 cities. Conservatively, 40-50% + 12-18 beakers from specialists by 700BCish is likely to be scientifically and militarily stronger than the cottage city I have seen in many of the posted saves.

I would also be able to afford to settle 1, maybe? 2 more cities (one production/GP city 1E of the Wheat, one future cottage 2W of the cows , or a hybrid city on the western peninsula. I wouldn't settle untill after masonry, so I would let the flow of the game dictate the choice.

The reality of this game is the Giggles must die and that that isn't going to happen before cats. Hence, we need to beat him to Construction AND be able to rapidly build/whip an army. Whipping away cottages is rarely optimal. Running an early FE/SE is usually better when you know that you must go to war.

An extra bonus may be the Mids. At 50%, commerce would be generating about 12-14bpt, plus at least 12-18 bpt from scientists. That gives us about 30 bpt quickly (i.e Masonry in about 8 turns after Writing). With all that forest available and plenty of time to pre-chop, getting the Pyramids is very possible, though admitedly unpredictable. Even if it is missed, the chops will generate a lot of cash to use for deficit teching or for supporting an army.

I would obviously welcome anyone's comments or opinions.

 

[huerfanista]

My first thoughts on overall strategy [EDIT:](don't read unless you've played the round or are not contributing a save):

Spoiler :

I don't see any chance of pulling off a successful rush against Gil, as others have said. However, I think a pillaging war against him while teching sailing and settling around him would work well. Shock axes will stand up very well against vultures (6.75 v 6.6), and shock impi pillagers will also do well if you can keep them in the woods (losing a couple to take out metals, OFC). Once Gil is without metals and pinned in his cities we could head for cats/swords and take him out for good. I think settling around him is also key so that other AIs don't gobble up all of the land and become too big.

The land we have is not really impressive, and we don't know what kind of land Gil has ATM. If he has a lot of good land, he will become very strong and a real danger. Shaka is built for war - let's use that.

That said, when looking at the saves I'm going to favor early copper hookup, and early writing + OB with Gil for scouting will be a big plus. I also think that not having a blocking city on the peninsula will be a negative, especially if Gil already has a city there.

Just my .02

EDIT: Also, I don't have any compunctions whatsoever in using the GLH, especially on this map. It would be a big plus for this strategy (already have sailing + economic boost for war/REX).

 

[Nares]

Edited

 

[Gumbolt]

The debate cont'd.

Spoiler :

Not against GLH just dont feel we will learn much by it if we use it for every cookbook. I dont deny the save would be a strong save to continue. Although a creative neighbour would be a pain with slow expansion

In term of my save

Spoiler :

I had kept Gilga down to 3 cities and more importantly kept his copper pillaged!!The issues would be Impi vs excess of whipped archers.

 

[Gumbolt]

Does anyone need more time to post a save? We could finish the round for tomorrow 12gmt? Or tonight around 20:00GMT?

Pends who else wishes to post. I know Kossin is itching to vote and post a second round with the winning save.

 

[huerfanista]

The debate cont'd.

Spoiler :

Not against GLH just dont feel we will learn much by it if we use it for every cookbook. I dont deny the save would be a strong save to continue. Although a creative neighbour would be a pain with slow expansion

In term of my save

Spoiler :

I had kept Gilga down to 3 cities and more importantly kept his copper pillaged!!The issues would be Impi vs excess of whipped archers.

Spoiler :

I don't think impis vs archers is any issue at all. The AI hesitates to attack warriors with archers (at least for a while). Impis would do fine and could easily be fortified with axes.

@Nares

Spoiler :

From the looks of it, we won't be able to settle around him. That's his capital just across the land-bridge. More realistically, we couldn't afford to settle around him, either financially or in a strategic sense. If he declares on us, any cities on the other side of him are a lost cause.

Well, how on earth can we declare on US since my strat is based on declaring on HIM first and pinning him after pillaging his metals. He's not gonna attack axes with archers, trust me. Financially, I think it's doable if we have the GLH, and perhaps even if we don't. Gumbolt's save has already accomplished the pin, it need to be reinforced with impis and then axes. Recovering the economy after a rex like this is what emperor players are supposed to be good at.

To be honest, I see more strength in the Stonehenge save because it has metal online already (and best settled the copper site), and has some military up, hopefully keeping Gilgamesh disinterested long enough to get some diplomatic immunity built up.

Well, I've only seen one save with 'henge, and it's mine. And I don't have the copper hooked up yet (maybe in 10-15 turns or so) and my only military are warriors. Did I miss someone else's save?

 

[Gumbolt]

Spoiler :

I don't think impis vs archers is any issue at all. The AI hesitates to attack warriors with archers (at least for a while). Impis would do fine and could easily be fortified with axes.

@Nares

Spoiler :

Well, how on earth can we declare on US since my strat is based on declaring on HIM first and pinning him after pillaging his metals. He's not gonna attack axes with archers, trust me. Financially, I think it's doable if we have the GLH, and perhaps even if we don't. Gumbolt's save has already accomplished the pin, it need to be reinforced with impis and then axes. Recovering the economy after a rex like this is what emperor players are supposed to be good at.



Well, I've only seen one save with 'henge, and it's mine. And I don't have the copper hooked up yet (maybe in 10-15 turns or so) and my only military are warriors. Did I miss someone else's save?

I think you missed a save.

Spoiler :

One of the save had Sh and used the 2 crabs copper city spot for a city. I almost think Soirana was tempting us with that city.

You will also note that Gilga has 3 sources of ivory to use. We face peirilous times ahead. Kill Gilga. lol

 

[huerfanista]

I think you missed a save.

Spoiler :

One of the save had Sh and used the 2 crabs copper city spot for a city. I almost think Soirana was tempting us with that city.

You will also note that Gilga has 3 sources of ivory to use. We face peirilous times ahead. Kill Gilga. lol

Spoiler :

I re-read all of the posts and I can't find a save other than mine that has stonehenge. Who posted it?

 

[Gumbolt]

lol it was your save!!

 

[huerfanista]

lol it was your save!!

Thought so.

Spoiler :

I still like your save the best. You were the only one with the cojones to go after Gilga.