Emperor Cookbook Shaka

[Gumbolt]

I dont think Kossin save will be up for voting. It will be interesting to see how much of KK and or HRG she finishes off.

 

[kossin]

I don't think it should be included in the voting either - except if there's not enough saves which shouldn't be the case I think.

 

[Solon70]

Another round, another set of lessons learned, to 1500AD:

Spoiler :

Took Nat from Lib, started on Gunpowder. Captured 1 more of KK's cities and then took Aesthetics and Theology in a peace deal. Switched to Lit in order to build the HE in Uruk. Somewhere along the line I revolted to OR for faster buildings + Hindu in the last few cities.

Started war again with KK when peace treaty expired, couple turns later Charlie asked me to switch to Vassalage. I agreed since I could use the xp for the units I'd be pumping from HE, and the free units would probably make up for a lot of what I lost from Bureaucracy. My game plan was to take 3 more cities from KK to relieve cultural pressure and then take peace, figuring that would pretty much cripple him for the rest of the game. Didn't want to take time to beat on him any further since I wanted to be able to go after Charlie before he got too strong.

The war against KK was sloppy - had to recapture a couple cities thanks to not leaving a large enough garrison - but I got my 3 cities and took peace in 1360 AD.

Somewhere along the line I had traded for Eng from Charlie. I had teched Compass instead of Drama figuring I had good chances of getting the latter from KK. Here's an odd one btw.

In the log at the left side of the screen I can see that Sury got a Great Scientist. That's an interesting piece of information when I haven't met Sury yet! What's going on, I wonder.

In 1380 I finish the Taj in Ulundi. I'd whipped a round of Universities and Theaters so I could start Oxford in the capital and GT in Karakorum. Few turns later I research Guilds and revolt to Nat, CS, and Theo. I've had a few workshops sitting around waiting for this moment!

I've been pumping Trebs from the HE and my stack from the war with KK is sitting at Charlie's borders waiting to pounce. I'd started putting all my espionage towards Charlie, and suddenly I notice he has only 3 turns left on Rifling. It's risky to go now, but I figure if I launch the war I have a good chance of making it to Aachen or at least close before he can mobilize too many rifles. If I wait, who knows when I'll be able to go to war, and I'm not sure I can out-tech him peacefully.

Only one thing spoiled my plan when I declared on Charlie in 1425AD. Stupid Kublai declared on me! While he didn't have much better than Keshiks, the WW from the resumption of hostilities was positively crippling. Now I'm trying to hold him off while pressing forward against Charlie. Tech spent a lot of time at 0% this round.

I took Ulm from Charlie in 1440AD and pushed on towards Augsburg. Charlie was willing to pay a little gold for peace, but I figured I had enough of a stack to take another city even if he had rifles. Sure enough, Augsburg had 3 rifles and a bunch of other defenders, but I had enough siege (including leftover suicide cats) that I was able to take the city and sue for peace. I also finished Chemistry the same turn.

Unfortunately, KK continued to be a thorn in my side. He took a couple of my cities back and I couldn't get him to agree to peace. I had to march my SoD all the way back up to Mongolia from where I had left off with Charlie. Hopefully there's enough time to take care of KK and get back to the action before Charlie decides to get frisky again. Ramses also dropped by in 1485AD, my first visitor from abroad (unless you count that weird Sury thing).

I thought my round was good in many ways, but once again tactics proved to be my undoing. Failure to leave enough city defenders cost me quite a bit of time - time I could have used productively to go to war with Charlie a few turns earlier, maybe capturing more of his cities. Once Aachen falls there's not much game left (I'm guessing this continent alone is close to the domination threshold) but now I don't know how long it will be before I can go there. I'm currently teching Military Science, so maybe once KK settles down I'll be able to crack Charlie with Grens.

 

[Nares]

@solon

Spoiler :

In the log at the left side of the screen I can see that Sury got a Great Scientist. That's an interesting piece of information when I haven't met Sury yet! What's going on, I wonder.

I suspect that has something to do with those revealed tiles at KK's original starting position.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okies here goes my save.

Spoiler :

Okay i continued the war against KK. For this reason my economy didnt speed ahead. I took 3-4 of KK cities and took peace when a stack of 5-6 units came close to recapturing a city. 10 turns later and his new capital taken he capitulated. Phew!!

Now comes the thorny problem of HRG. A tech leader who pipped me to Rifles. it took me 10-12 turns getting my army back to his side of the continent.

Anyway meanwhile I have 6 theatre and i whipped out 6 unis but OX uni and GT are not yet built. I built HE in Gilgas old capital. I could whip oxford for 7 pop.

Okay around 1440ish I DOW HRG with a 20-30 strong stack. I waited for his 10 strong stack to come to me wiping it out with few loses. I then proceeded to take 2 cities before taking peace when he offered 300 gold and a raft of other things. This will allow me to whip/draft out an army in the next ten turns.

Overall i could of used steel. my stack is depleted as i lost 6-7 units taking the last city. HRG does have rifles but his units are now thinly spread 3 a city to his empire.

I think I lost direction as in what to do with all the other KK cities i took. NE in karakorum seems a good idea.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Solon

Spoiler :

Wow where did Kossin Stack go?? I think finishing off KK first was always the first task to do. His capital once free of culture is a great NE site. Never leave KK to rebuild his army and get knights!! From Kossin save he was quite weak and his cities for me fell quite easily.

You faced the same problem in the capital as me. Lack of production You could of put workshops on the plains for production. 3 hammers per tile.

You did manage to build Globe Theatre and Taj Mah! Although the GT will be less use whilst Karakorums borders are crushed my mongol culture.

It would be a challenging save to continue but rifles cant be too far off.

@MJG

Spoiler :

Another save with KK still alive. Ackkk.

What I like about your save compared to mine is you have a stack of rifles and catapults ready for war and HRG is a bit behind on the tech front. I suspect with this save HRG capital will fall pretty soon even with CG3 longbows. The war must come swiftly.

I do regret not beelining rifles really. Its a good save to continue with given the backwards AI. I dont think KK will be a problem techwise although knights may be a pain.

 

[Gumbolt]

Shadow 1170AD->1500AD

Spoiler :

No scare this time

Spoiler :

Sent the caravels exploring and found the three unknown civs with all the stone and marble shinies at their disposition:
AC
Ramesses
Sury
They are on a fairly large continent but not one of them is that big compared to our landmass.

Raced to Economics and got the free GM which went to Rome...

I took a few more KK cities then Cap'd him.

I went after Charlemagne next, so the logical tech was:

As 1500AD came by, my army just wiped Aachen's massive garrison. It's ready to fall next turn.

At some point buddhism (AP religion) spread so I started to spam missionaries and when AC asked me to convert I did for Diplo.

Tech screen... sold techs for gold and gifted some to KK.

Steel will be useful somewhere down the line, if not to finish Charlemagne then for the other continent, or something! Ramesses could very well go for Culture, although he hasn't started yet. Looks like he might need to go.

Domination or Diplomation looks quite feasible from this point and should be no problem for any Prince+ player.

Attached my save in case anyone wants to see/compare, but it's not up for voting.

Spoiler :

Another master class by Kossin. I do think teching music first on my save was a mistake. I suspect you will soon have HRG capital and his holy city would be a fantastic wall street site.

Although I think you are well beyond emperor level really.

 

[Gumbolt]

Anyone else to play. Its not that harder round. I would like to see Cabert complete this round.

 

[mjg5591]

@ gumbolt

Spoiler :

Yea I wanted to take out KK and cap him, but I wanted to get onto Charlie before he got rifles. My big mistake was teching MT. We have no horses. I could have been real close to steel if I didn't go towards MT. And steel and rifles would go through Charlie easy I think. I can get horses of KK for 46gpt. I checked.

As far as Kossin save goes, he is defiently a Immortal player. He just dominates emperor. As you can tell with his rounds he posts.

Like how you capitulated KK. It will make it so Charlie can't bring him in to help. Like in Solon game. Like how you have the war started with Charlie and 2 cities. Haven't looked at your save yet though. I think I whipped OU in capital for 4 people. Capital has no hammers.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ gumbolt

Spoiler :

Yea I wanted to take out KK and cap him, but I wanted to get onto Charlie before he got rifles. My big mistake was teching MT. We have no horses. I could have been real close to steel if I didn't go towards MT. And steel and rifles would go through Charlie easy I think. I can get horses of KK for 46gpt. I checked.

As far as Kossin save goes, he is defiently a Immortal player. He just dominates emperor. As you can tell with his rounds he posts.

Like how you capitulated KK. It will make it so Charlie can't bring him in to help. Like in Solon game. Like how you have the war started with Charlie and 2 cities. Haven't looked at your save yet though. I think I whipped OU in capital for 4 people. Capital has no hammers.

Spoiler :

MT with no horse. Ackkk! You have to remember this save has been doctored to make things a challenge. I think KK had 2 horse resources. if you have nationalism you could whip rifles and take on KK too.

On my game I made sure HRG stayed at friendly. He will not attack at friendly. I think purely the fact you have a better stack and HRG has not got rifles makes your save much better going forward. I should never of tried for music on my save. Whipping ox uni would be useful. A decent GP farm would of helped my save. Cant do everything!

As for Kossin. She is a bit of a micro management expert not to mention perfectionist in many ways. She would make a useful member of any SGOTM teams.

 

[Solon70]

@gumbolt:

Spoiler :

My thinking was that domination represented the clearest path to victory. Wipe everyone off our continent and you've basically got it already. I guess I overestimated my ability to leave KK crippled without capping him... although if I'd had a few more turns to draft some muskets for defense in the Mongol cities, maybe there wouldn't have been a problem. Had to rush the war with Charlie a few turns sooner than I would have liked.

 

[Nares]

@Gumbolt

Spoiler :

MT with no horse. Ackkk! You have to remember this save has been doctored to make things a challenge.

I think that may have something to do with fewer players participating in each round.

Added challenege is great for the more advanced players, but counter-productive to keeping less advanced players on board.

At least it's not as doctored as Monarch Student. I find rigged games to be rather shallow.

 

[kossin]

@Nares+Gumbolt

Spoiler :

That iis a very good point you just made. If anything, the cookbook is supposed to make it easier to make the transition to Emperor, not create challenge for players who already do fine on that level.

If Soirana has too much on her hands and (other people too) doesn't mind, I'd try my hands at making the next cookbook. Her idea of trying to force our hand not to rush is a good one as well as making the GLH not a viable option I'd say. I think a Pangea type map could be good as early rexxing and empire management is an important part of learning Emperor+ which we haven't really seen in these 2 games.

It would also make for less MMing with less cities available (which takes a very long time - I mean playing to 1500BC takes 20% of the time to play to 400AD and 10% of playing to 1100AD and 1500AD).

If time is still an issue, then maybe consider moving the speed to Normal or shorten round lengths? Too many rounds isn't great either but, like the 1st game, at one point it can always be decided that players may just play til the end.

 

[Gumbolt]

@Nares+Gumbolt

Spoiler :

That iis a very good point you just made. If anything, the cookbook is supposed to make it easier to make the transition to Emperor, not create challenge for players who already do fine on that level.

If Soirana has too much on her hands and (other people too) doesn't mind, I'd try my hands at making the next cookbook. Her idea of trying to force our hand not to rush is a good one as well as making the GLH not a viable option I'd say. I think a Pangea type map could be good as early rexxing and empire management is an important part of learning Emperor+ which we haven't really seen in these 2 games.

It would also make for less MMing with less cities available (which takes a very long time - I mean playing to 1500BC takes 20% of the time to play to 400AD and 10% of playing to 1100AD and 1500AD).

If time is still an issue, then maybe consider moving the speed to Normal or shorten round lengths? Too many rounds isn't great either but, like the 1st game, at one point it can always be decided that players may just play til the end.

Okay lets not go spoiler mad! I doubt the fact we had no horse needed a spoiler. The points following on clearly not.

In terms of players playing rounds. The rules do state if you are comfortable at emperor level or above you should shadow.

 

[Gumbolt]

If no more saves are likely to be posted i suggest we close the round in 8hrs. (When i wake up).

 

[Nares]

If time is still an issue, then maybe consider moving the speed to Normal or shorten round lengths? Too many rounds isn't great either but, like the 1st game, at one point it can always be decided that players may just play til the end.

Excellent point; it could likewise be an issue of time.

Shortening earlier rounds and moving to normal speed is a great idea. This gives fewer turns between decision points, with less to catch up on as the save is passed. Hopefully this creates less doubt for players when submitting a save, as one mistake will not be compounded by others.

Another method of tracking rounds would be to end rounds at era changes. It produces drastically different save dates, but would also highlight drastically different approaches.

Another suggestion would be to end the voting procedure after round X. Players would still report at the old round points, but they'll continue on with their save.

Lastly, and I may have mentioned this, but the player whose save is picked could be asked to submit a more detailed report. It's more effort, but it could help drive the discussion further.[/spoiler]

 

[Gumbolt]

Excellent point; it could likewise be an issue of time.

Shortening earlier rounds and moving to normal speed is a great idea. This gives fewer turns between decision points, with less to catch up on as the save is passed. Hopefully this creates less doubt for players when submitting a save, as one mistake will not be compounded by others.

Another method of tracking rounds would be to end rounds at era changes. It produces drastically different save dates, but would also highlight drastically different approaches.

Another suggestion would be to end the voting procedure after round X. Players would still report at the old round points, but they'll continue on with their save.

Lastly, and I may have mentioned this, but the player whose save is picked could be asked to submit a more detailed report. It's more effort, but it could help drive the discussion further.[/spoiler]

The downside of normal speed is its harder to make a decent war. The window opens and closes so quickly. The round dates are flexible.

The first date has to allow time to allow a player to make his mark. 1500bc at times seems too early for me. 400ad allows a save past the benchmark for science around 1ad. 1100ad gives a chance for a early liberalism.

If you set the rounds too early or too late people cant see what you have done. if the rounds are too short then how can you tell what someone is planning if they keep getting cut off.

 

[Gumbolt]

We will go ahead and vote for the next 1-2 days. Hopefully finish by Tuesday or when all that have played have voted. Its not always about voting for the best save but the save that will be most interesting or challenging to play. Anyone that submitted a save is free to vote.

Please rank your top 3 in order.

First place 3 points.
Second place 2 points
Third place. 1 point.

PLEASE NOTE!! To keep voting fair you cant vote for your own save. You are expected to vote for 3 saves and give reasons for your voting. Remember this is a learning game. I would encourage everyone to act within the spirit that the cookbook is intended.

Anyway here are the saves:

MJG5591

Solon70

Gumbolt

Anyone who played the round can vote including kossin.

 

[Gumbolt]

In terms of finishing off this game I think MJG save is the best. That stack of rifles will be unstoppable. Unfortunately on my save HRG had Rifles which would make the assault harder. Although I had dealt with KK.

It would be good to play off a save that isnt mine or Kossins too.

@ Kossin it was a nice job as ever this round but i think your boots are too big for emperor really as the daily rounds have shown.

 

[Ambro]

Sorry, haven't had a chance to finish this round.

Spoiler :

Got into the 1300's I think but KK hasn't cap'd yet (not really sure how capitulation mechanics work but guessing I don't have a big enough military advantage). Got the round the world bonus. Not got rifles yet but gunpowder is in. Met the other continent, seem like they don't pose a significant threat once the homeland is conquered.

Think I'll retry this round from scratch for practice (still having some issues with the economy which I think is partly related to my underuse of building wealth, excessive building in cities and collecting too many of KK's cities. 18gold in maintenance costs for one city hurts).