lasombra
Warlord
about stonehenge: don't chop any forests into it we could need them for other things. I like the idea of making Athens a GP farm, but we have to hurry up the war against alex then
Emperor Domination
- Thread starter futurehermit
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futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
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@lasombra, if you need a break that is ok. have fun 
@lilnev, my thinking is if we don't have iron then let's just sit tight until construction. we don't want to end up dealing with alex and hannibal at the same time if alex decides to declare on us...
@all, keep in mind that construction doesn't just give us catapults, we have ivory so we also get elephants. that combo is just lights-out classical-medeival era as i'm sure everyone knows!
my immediate goals will be: finish alpha, trade for iron and hopefully math and poly. start lit. if we have iron, start massing some troops for war vs. alex with the goal of razing his rice city and the city to the north (dunno beyond that at this point...). after lit obviously construction although if we can't trade for math immediately when alpha is in it could be tricky to go straight to construction if we can't pick up math somehow...
i need input on one thing though: settling a city to the south...are we going to do this? if so, where? my inclination is not to do this. maintenance becomes an issue prior to col and a settler is not a military unit what does everyone think about this???
(this is "got it" btw! will play soon)
@lilnev, my thinking is if we don't have iron then let's just sit tight until construction. we don't want to end up dealing with alex and hannibal at the same time if alex decides to declare on us...
@all, keep in mind that construction doesn't just give us catapults, we have ivory so we also get elephants. that combo is just lights-out classical-medeival era as i'm sure everyone knows!
my immediate goals will be: finish alpha, trade for iron and hopefully math and poly. start lit. if we have iron, start massing some troops for war vs. alex with the goal of razing his rice city and the city to the north (dunno beyond that at this point...). after lit obviously construction although if we can't trade for math immediately when alpha is in it could be tricky to go straight to construction if we can't pick up math somehow...
i need input on one thing though: settling a city to the south...are we going to do this? if so, where? my inclination is not to do this. maintenance becomes an issue prior to col and a settler is not a military unit
what does everyone think about this???(this is "got it" btw! will play soon)
Giaur
War Dancer
About Stonehenge ...
Without Iron and with 3 cities it would be difficult to finish both Alex and Haniball. Haniball own Copper, Alex too (near Athens). If we decide to build this wonder, Alex should be left for later. If not Alex should be taken down. Not only the rice that matter. His cities are closer. It would be easier to maintain them. Also sending troops so far (towards Haniballs capital) will last very long and will make this war very unefficient. My idea is too sabotage the road towards Haniball's city, just to cut him from Copper. Then we could easily finish him with only Horse Archers. Then of course Stonehenge should not be build. But if we decide too finish Han first, Stonehenge should be build. And we should run not for Construction but for Horseback Riding.
edit. H.Archers and Chariots, cause they are cheap and can make such a long distance fast enough. And I would construct stable in one city, to have have some Flanking2 horse archers. I am quite familiar with such kind of war.
edit2: If we decide to H.Archers, we should not wait too long. When Han advance Horseback Riding too, it would make this war difficult too. But our horseman will easily cut him off the horses. I think 4-5 Horse Archers will allow us to start such kind of war.
Without Iron and with 3 cities it would be difficult to finish both Alex and Haniball. Haniball own Copper, Alex too (near Athens). If we decide to build this wonder, Alex should be left for later. If not Alex should be taken down. Not only the rice that matter. His cities are closer. It would be easier to maintain them. Also sending troops so far (towards Haniballs capital) will last very long and will make this war very unefficient. My idea is too sabotage the road towards Haniball's city, just to cut him from Copper. Then we could easily finish him with only Horse Archers. Then of course Stonehenge should not be build. But if we decide too finish Han first, Stonehenge should be build. And we should run not for Construction but for Horseback Riding.
edit. H.Archers and Chariots, cause they are cheap and can make such a long distance fast enough. And I would construct stable in one city, to have have some Flanking2 horse archers. I am quite familiar with such kind of war.
edit2: If we decide to H.Archers, we should not wait too long. When Han advance Horseback Riding too, it would make this war difficult too. But our horseman will easily cut him off the horses. I think 4-5 Horse Archers will allow us to start such kind of war.
lasombra
Warlord
@ Giaur: personally I've never fought a big war with just horsearchers and war chariots. so, I'm not sure if we should do this. I personally would not care about han at the moment and go in any case for alex. either with iron based units or elepults. I don't think that han is much of a threat right now. what do you think? as others pointed out, we need more cities and but han is too far to the south and so maintanance would kill us. alex is closer and has some nice land too.
about the GL: I did it last night in one of my games. built it with a GE in a captured enemy capital and it produced GS with caste system like mad.
I wouldn't found another city, yet. depends on the iron situation. if we could get iron with it maybe. if not... definately not.
about the GL: I did it last night in one of my games. built it with a GE in a captured enemy capital and it produced GS with caste system like mad.
I wouldn't found another city, yet. depends on the iron situation. if we could get iron with it maybe. if not... definately not.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
My idea is not to use war elephants for offense, but rather for stack defense of the catapults...catapults kill all...
I don't like the idea of attacking Hannibal first. As mentioned, he's further away and costs more in maintenance. It's just copper. Copper is good early but we're moving along in the game. We should just play like we don't have copper.
I also prefer construction over h.archery. Construction provides us with ele+cat which we can use to mop up anyone prior to gunpowder really...
Of course if we have iron we needn't worry...
I don't like the idea of attacking Hannibal first. As mentioned, he's further away and costs more in maintenance. It's just copper. Copper is good early but we're moving along in the game. We should just play like we don't have copper.
I also prefer construction over h.archery. Construction provides us with ele+cat which we can use to mop up anyone prior to gunpowder really...
Of course if we have iron we needn't worry...
Giaur
War Dancer
1) we do not have to maintain han cities. We can raze them
2) get Copper and Great General
3) build army lvl 2
4) use Great General (from war with Han) to upgrade those army to lvl 3. And We will have some experienced horse archers to help assasinate weak Alex. He has few cities.
Edited!
2) get Copper and Great General
3) build army lvl 2
4) use Great General (from war with Han) to upgrade those army to lvl 3. And We will have some experienced horse archers to help assasinate weak Alex. He has few cities.
Edited!
Giaur
War Dancer
when some civ lacks for chopper Horse Archers deal with Archers as well as Cavs deal with Longbows and Muskets.
Giaur
War Dancer
and some scheme for using Flanking2 promotion.
1) attack without flanking unit, we attack our strongest unit:
Defenders (fortified, 20% cultural defense) - 100%+20%+25%+50%=195%+CG bonus
archer CG2, 7.2
archer CG1, 6.45
archer CG1, 6.45
archer , 5.85
archer , 5.85
Attackers:
h.archer C2, 7.2
h.archer C2, 7.2
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer F2, 6.0 (optional)
Combat1: 50%, 7.2 vs 7.2
Combat2: 66%, 7.2 vs 6.45
Combat3: 53%, 6.6 vs 6.45
Combat4: 66%, 6.6 vs 5.85
Combat5: 66%, 6.6 vs 5.85
EX=50+33+47+33+33=1.96. We loose 2 units during the attack
2) using F2 promotion.
Our attack failed (pessimistic), but softened the defenders.
archer CG1, 6.45
archer CG1, 6.45
archer , 5.85
archer , 5.85
archer CG2, 3.6 (unit lost half strength during attack of our F2 unit)
Attackers:
h.archer C2, 7.2
h.archer C2, 7.2
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer F2, 6.0 (optional)
Combat1: 66%, 7.2 vs 6.45
Combat2: 66%, 7.2 vs 6.45
Combat3: 66%, 6.6 vs 5.85
Combat4: 66%, 6.6 vs 5.85
Combat5: 96%, 6.6 vs 3.6
Combat6: 30%+35%(flanking bonus), 65%, 6.0 vs 7.2
EX=33+33+33+33+4+35=1.71. We loose 1.7 unit per attack. So flanking is useful, but personaly expected better results. I hope you will understand sth.
1) attack without flanking unit, we attack our strongest unit:
Defenders (fortified, 20% cultural defense) - 100%+20%+25%+50%=195%+CG bonus
archer CG2, 7.2
archer CG1, 6.45
archer CG1, 6.45
archer , 5.85
archer , 5.85
Attackers:
h.archer C2, 7.2
h.archer C2, 7.2
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer F2, 6.0 (optional)
Combat1: 50%, 7.2 vs 7.2
Combat2: 66%, 7.2 vs 6.45
Combat3: 53%, 6.6 vs 6.45
Combat4: 66%, 6.6 vs 5.85
Combat5: 66%, 6.6 vs 5.85
EX=50+33+47+33+33=1.96. We loose 2 units during the attack
2) using F2 promotion.
Our attack failed (pessimistic), but softened the defenders.
archer CG1, 6.45
archer CG1, 6.45
archer , 5.85
archer , 5.85
archer CG2, 3.6 (unit lost half strength during attack of our F2 unit)
Attackers:
h.archer C2, 7.2
h.archer C2, 7.2
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer C1, 6.6
h.archer F2, 6.0 (optional)
Combat1: 66%, 7.2 vs 6.45
Combat2: 66%, 7.2 vs 6.45
Combat3: 66%, 6.6 vs 5.85
Combat4: 66%, 6.6 vs 5.85
Combat5: 96%, 6.6 vs 3.6
Combat6: 30%+35%(flanking bonus), 65%, 6.0 vs 7.2
EX=33+33+33+33+4+35=1.71. We loose 1.7 unit per attack. So flanking is useful, but personaly expected better results. I hope you will understand sth.
lasombra
Warlord
woohoo a statistician. no seriously, I like that.
well, let's just wait until alpha comes in and then see what we can do...
well, let's just wait until alpha comes in and then see what we can do...
lasombra
Warlord
@ Giaur: why do you want to hit han so bad? just because of the copper? do you think it's his only source of copper?
Giaur
War Dancer
No, we should wait for Alpha first. Then make a decision
A major war with Hannibal is not a good idea right now. Grabbing just the Copper city and suing for peace might be, but I could also be persuaded to wait for catapults/elephants. If we don't have Iron and we decide to wait, we should think about grabbing the barbarian city rather than founding a fourth of our own. It's in a good spot.
peace,
lilnev
peace,
lilnev
johnny_rico
one more turn addict
Seems like this thread was dead was days. Some good discussions here and I'll put in my own two cents.
I think Alex is still Public enemy #1. Hannibal isn't in our face too bad and we need to let the copper thing go. Collectively, it's all our faults for not scouting properly south of berlin. Anyway, we should let Hannibal clear all that jungle for us, then we'll take him down.
I also don't think we want to start a war between alex and hannibal before we jump in. Won't the AI make gobs of units and since we want to oust them both, it's just more work for us in the long haul.
We need alpha bad and trade it immediately for IW. If we don't have iron, we wait for construction, mass tons of cats with elephants and drill 2 archers to back them up. The real key will be to not have too many healthy phalanxes attack our stacks. They will shread the elephants. I mention the drill 2 archers because I have become fond of upgrading them to X-bows. Also, I have found that I always have too many CR3 axes, swords, and maces. It's far better to attack cities with seige and have strong defensive units to leave behind in cities or protect your stacks of cats. I usually seem to be short on defensive units and am sick and tired of wasting promotions on my archers (CG = useless)
If we don't run scientists in berlin, our tech rate will be slow, but I understand the need for a GE to pop the GL for us. After maths, construction, Literature, perhaps this would be a good opportunity to go after drama or compass for trade value, maybe music as well. I don't see us building loads of courthouses in the near and since we're food deficient, caste system is a long way off as well. Thus, I'm thinking CoL isn't all that great. Besides, we don't need to found confucianism and someone else will in short order. We'll be able to trade for it and still hit civil service in the early ADs.
I don't have a lot to contribute regarding Horse Archers. The statistical analysis is nice Giaur, but I wouldn't be attacking too much with those odds. The thing is, for me, there is always something better to research than HR. Granted, in our scenario, the stables will be nice for the war elephants, plus Alex's spears will shread the HA's. On the pro side, HA's are nice to have around for pillaging and great if you've got catapults coming after your attacking stack.
Anyway, this is probably more than anyone wants to read or should have to read. I guess I've got a lot of words per penny.
I think Alex is still Public enemy #1. Hannibal isn't in our face too bad and we need to let the copper thing go. Collectively, it's all our faults for not scouting properly south of berlin. Anyway, we should let Hannibal clear all that jungle for us, then we'll take him down.
I also don't think we want to start a war between alex and hannibal before we jump in. Won't the AI make gobs of units and since we want to oust them both, it's just more work for us in the long haul.
We need alpha bad and trade it immediately for IW. If we don't have iron, we wait for construction, mass tons of cats with elephants and drill 2 archers to back them up. The real key will be to not have too many healthy phalanxes attack our stacks. They will shread the elephants. I mention the drill 2 archers because I have become fond of upgrading them to X-bows. Also, I have found that I always have too many CR3 axes, swords, and maces. It's far better to attack cities with seige and have strong defensive units to leave behind in cities or protect your stacks of cats. I usually seem to be short on defensive units and am sick and tired of wasting promotions on my archers (CG = useless)
If we don't run scientists in berlin, our tech rate will be slow, but I understand the need for a GE to pop the GL for us. After maths, construction, Literature, perhaps this would be a good opportunity to go after drama or compass for trade value, maybe music as well. I don't see us building loads of courthouses in the near and since we're food deficient, caste system is a long way off as well. Thus, I'm thinking CoL isn't all that great. Besides, we don't need to found confucianism and someone else will in short order. We'll be able to trade for it and still hit civil service in the early ADs.
I don't have a lot to contribute regarding Horse Archers. The statistical analysis is nice Giaur, but I wouldn't be attacking too much with those odds. The thing is, for me, there is always something better to research than HR. Granted, in our scenario, the stables will be nice for the war elephants, plus Alex's spears will shread the HA's. On the pro side, HA's are nice to have around for pillaging and great if you've got catapults coming after your attacking stack.
Anyway, this is probably more than anyone wants to read or should have to read. I guess I've got a lot of words per penny.
Giaur
War Dancer
Perhaps you just can't fight with H.Archers. That might be the reason, you do not like them. Peace.
johnny_rico
one more turn addict
Care to explain? I'm not sure what you mean.
Giaur
War Dancer
Try once play only horse archers. Give some Flanking promo, other Combat. You will see that you can deal not only with Archers and these wars are much more efficient. Only Feudalism is a threat.
Or try play once Vanilla Imortals. While in Warlords Immortals were nerfed, H.Archers were given additional power, making them very powerful units, also in Medieval era. War elephants, in my opinion, are defensive units.
And about the stats. I did not add their withrowal ability, so those odds are improved more. H.Archers heal faster (cause they can perform attack and enter the city to gain addional health), move faster and gain experience faster (cause they have withroval chance, making they die less often).
Or try play once Vanilla Imortals. While in Warlords Immortals were nerfed, H.Archers were given additional power, making them very powerful units, also in Medieval era. War elephants, in my opinion, are defensive units.
And about the stats. I did not add their withrowal ability, so those odds are improved more. H.Archers heal faster (cause they can perform attack and enter the city to gain addional health), move faster and gain experience faster (cause they have withroval chance, making they die less often).
Giaur
War Dancer
In Medieval, before Guilds, H.Archers, are used to kill Longbows and Crossbows, migrating from one city to another. When you bring Cats, Trebs, Swords and Maces and kill half defenders, AI is likely to strenghten the garrison by weakening another city. Horse Archers can destroy such transports.
edit: There's plenty job for such units beside of pillaging countryside, belive me.
edit: There's plenty job for such units beside of pillaging countryside, belive me.
Galileo44
Great Scientist
In your attack trials did you note that HA get -10% city attack?
lasombra
Warlord
hmm, ok.....
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