Empyrean. Is there a point?

Cuteunit

Danse Macabre
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Sep 5, 2007
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Hello. The Empyrean religion attracts me because it seems the most "purely good" religion option other than maybe Runes. However, Empyrean doesnt have the benefits the other religions do or if it does, I don't know what they are. I don't see any religious heroes, it's Temple is just a carbon copy of the Order temple... it has no religion-specific buildings...


Is there a point? Is the Overcouncil the ONLY thing?
 
They have an awesome religious hero. The old malakim one. He has acces to the sun3 sorcery spell and I think the sun 3 summoning too, both great spells.
 
Their holy structure (Dies Diel) also does something extra over the other ones by giving disciple units an experience bonus. Also, ratha's and radiant guards are simply better versions of chariots and axemen, and they keep their spells when you upgrade them. The other day I even got an event saying the Empyrean had chased the ratcatchers out of town.
 
Controlling the Overcouncil is the biggest reason to go Empyrean in my humble opinion. I'm a big fan of the AP and UN in BTS, so for me that's enough, but like others have said, there are some other benefits also. There are also events that are Empyrean only, like free units and upgrades that make it worthwhile.
 
What do you mean, controlling? In the wrong situation, you have no control at all.

I founded it in a previous game. By then there were only 3 civs left, one of them my vassal. For some time, I was alone in the Council and did what I wanted. Then, i somehow spread to the other that wasn't my vassal. Then, he summons Basium and next thing I know, I'm voted out 2 against 1 since I cannot ask my vassal to join the Council (unlike all the other civic options...)

So they start picking policies I don't want, I end up refusing them, THEN I notice this is by now giving me 15 unhappies in my cities so I had no option left but to get out of the council. That I founded...
 
Once the Overcouncil is activated, there doesn't seem much point in being Empyrean, except if you're the lucky one to build their religious Hero.
 
I agree; the Empyrean are fairly bland as far as FfH religions go. Of course, a large part of its flavor is lost simply because it came too late to get in many 'pedia entries, but the Council of Esus manages to be unique and flavorful despite also being introduced late. It's just hard to tell what the Empyrean really means. Esus is filled to the brim with abilities that emphasize stealth and subterfuge, Overlords has countless 'pedia entries and spells that focus on madness, and all the other religions are similarly well-defined, except for the Empyrean.
 
Overlords has countless 'pedia entries and spells that focus on madness

While I think it's a good move to make slavery more broadly available, I think this change has made the Overlords a rather bland religion too.

Order: no maintenance problems, military happiness
Kilmorph: mines, production, gold
Fellowship: forests
Order: hell, lower food consumption and all that
Esus: being sneaky
Empyrean: ??
Overlords: ?? there's a flavour of water, but that doesn't have much effect on gameplay
 
What do you mean, controlling? In the wrong situation, you have no control at all.

I founded it in a previous game. By then there were only 3 civs left, one of them my vassal. For some time, I was alone in the Council and did what I wanted. Then, i somehow spread to the other that wasn't my vassal. Then, he summons Basium and next thing I know, I'm voted out 2 against 1 since I cannot ask my vassal to join the Council (unlike all the other civic options...)

So they start picking policies I don't want, I end up refusing them, THEN I notice this is by now giving me 15 unhappies in my cities so I had no option left but to get out of the council. That I founded...

By controlling, I meant founding it and having the holy city and shrine. This guarantees your name is in the election. If you're planning your strategy around having friends and spreading Empyrean to them and having a sizable membership, then you can be fairly certain to win most if not all of the elections.

I agree it needs more flavor, but the mechanics of it are no different than CoE, only the options.
 
Empyrean: ??
Overlords: ?? there's a flavour of water, but that doesn't have much effect on gameplay

OO is stated to be strong because of
1. heroes. Saverous is incredibly strong for the time he is available. Not once I wiped out more advanced neighbour with him. Hemah - archmage hero before Strength of Will. No comments.
2. Tower of Complasency and Asylums.
3. Water walking units.

Additional effect for the temple - even more culture.
Cultist spheres: body, chaos, mind, water.
Religious units: lunatic, the drown, stygian guard, eidolon. Undeads and demons.

Let us derive what is OO from all of that. Strength, influence, manipulations with human body (necromancy) and mind, control of seas, knowledge.

(There is a general trend: evil civs like knowledge, good civs like production. Very good - military production.)

---------------------------------

Slogans
OO - Fear the Power
AV - Freedom and Knowledge
FoL - Commune with Nature
RoK - Work and Earn
Order - Serve and Protect
CoE - Decieve, Steal and Kill

Empyrean religion is still something hardly understandable. Yes, they have strong features but they do not feat ideology IMO.
 
Hey, dont forget the Kraken in OO. You need a priest (or high priest) for that.

I dont agree with Empyrean being bland. Nasty hero, cool overcouncil procedure, but unfortunately the temple does what the Order does. Can it have a different temple? Oh and the Malakim rock if you go Empyrean (1 vote + 1 chalid + 1 teutyboy = 3 votes!!)
 
I think the Emphyrean should be all about free thinking. It's temples should increase Great People rate, and perhaps even a specail kind of great person that requires the Emphyrean, the Great Diplomat.

The temple of the Emphyrean and Dies Diei would allow you to assign diplomat speacalists (+1:traderoute:,+2:gp:(Great Diplomat). The Great Diplomat could settle, or could go on a diplomatic mission. The Diplomatic Mission will give a temporary +4 diplomacy measure, and assure that the civilization will vote the same as you in the next Overcouncil meeting. So the person with the Dies Diei would have a greater chance of controlling the Overcouncil because the Dies Diei would give more diplomats.
 
It-ogo, you were looking for a slogan for the Empyrean? How about something like, "Light shining over all the world." or "Sun banishing Shadow." or some such?
 
It-ogo, you were looking for a slogan for the Empyrean? How about something like, "Light shining over all the world." or "Sun banishing Shadow." or some such?

That's just the point, though: The Empyrean aren't all about the sun or banishing the shadow. That's a large part of them, yes, but the light motif belongs to the Malakim (who, granted, have a strong connection to the Empyrean). The Empyrean religion is dedicated to wisdom, understanding, and cooperation.

Regardless, you shouldn't even have to think up a slogan for a religion. In a world as detailed and intricate as FfH, you should know it immedieately. When I think of the Veil, I immediately picture the savant, corrupt and tainted in his pursuit of power, striking bargains with dark forces in a shadowy room outside the public eye. When I think of the Fellowship of Leaves, I immediately think of the elves and druids calling the forest to fend off intruders. When I think of the Empyrean, I can't picture anything. I have no idea who they are or what they're supposed to do beyond a vague description in their 'pedia entry. To be honest, they look like some poorly though-out attempt at making an unambiguously "Good" religion. I hate typing that, because I know it's not true: The dev team has put a lot of work into this world, and I know that everything has its place. Nevertheless, the Empyrean really does look like it was tacked on as an afterthought to balance out the Council of Esus.

I think this can, and should, be fixed. Most obviously, the 'pedia entries need to be filled out (especially for the Ecclesiastic: those Reflection on the State Cults excerpts were the first things I read about the religions). I'd also like to see somebody who died because of the Empyrean showing up in Elizabeth's vision from Cassiel's story: The Empyrean has to be viewable from a different light, or it's too idealistic for Erebus. More importantly, however, it needs to have a distinct mechanical effect on gameplay. Right now, it's just a pale imitation of the Order with a few anti-Shadow spells, and unless you're at war with Esus or the Calabim, there's not much of a reason to follow it.
 
OO is stated to be strong because of
1. heroes. Saverous is incredibly strong for the time he is available. Not once I wiped out more advanced neighbour with him. Hemah - archmage hero before Strength of Will. No comments.
2. Tower of Complasency and Asylums.
3. Water walking units.

A religion should IMO also give a distinct playstyle even if you didn't found it and can't build any of the religious heroes or wonders. So leaving out Saverous, Hemah and the Tower of Complacency, do you still feel the Overlords is as distinct as the Order/Runes/Leaves/Veil/Esus gameplay-wise?
 
Anyway, making the Empyream more attractive seems easy to me. Give all Empyrean followers an extra vote in the Overcouncil, not just Chalid.
 
I think that the Empyream should be all about "My way is the only right way" and "The ends do justify the means".
Think Spanish Inquisition (not the Monty Python Version) or the "Wheel of Time"s Children of the Light.
 
meh. For me overcouncil boils down to getting the trade route votes passed and then forgetting about it.. other than that the involvment I have with it is voting no on the rare times I'm not the head to global liberty, which totally ruined me in one game I was playing as the Hippus. Switched to Overcouncil and suddenly my cities are all starving and have 20 unhappiness each due to the war weariness thing from liberty and city states comibned ^^
 
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