Engineering First ?

[Provolution]

Engineering First ?

There has been a contentious issue whether or not the latest technology poll has been wrongfully designed, interpreted and handled in general. Therefore I am posting this poll now, as it seems the CC posted in the judiciary will not be handled in time.

This is a public poll, 72 hours and the option with the most support wins the poll.

Should engineering be researched first this TC (effectively ahead of Democracy Beeline)?

1. Yes
2. No

 

[dutchfire]

No, the tech is basically useless, especially when comparing it to Democracy.

 

[Provolution]

Yes, it is not USELESS at all (referring back to one-sided argumentation that Daveshack is presently polling on), as it accelerates the war by increasing the speed of reinforcements of 1 road-tile per turn (That is for shortening the war) and increases our road movement for better allocation of workers inside our empire.

The price is only 2-3 turns of research, so it is not even a detour, as Dutchfire wrongfully claims.

Pikemen is also a good military tech to take en route, in preparation of the Roman War, as they got plenty mounted units.

EDIT, I amended my post from "double speed" to "1/3 " speed, but that does not alter my position, as something wrong has been done, and we should rectify that.

 

[dutchfire]

Yes, it is not USELESS at all (referring back to one-sided argumentation that Daveshack is presently polling on), as it accelerates the war by doubling the speed of reinforcements (That is for shortening the war) and doubles our road movement for better allocation of workers inside our empire.

The price is only 2-3 turns of research, so it is not even a detour, as Dutchfire wrongfully claims.

Pikemen is also a good military tech to take en route.

1. It does not double the speed, it increases road movement by one, as has been pointed out several times. You seem to have missed that citizens input everytime though.

2. The speed of reinforcements has almost no effect on the speed of the war, as most of our troops are inside enemy territory, or so close that the extra movement won't save anything.

3. The speed at which workers can improve our empire is not influenced heavily by the road movement. Engineering will only have effect when workers need to move more than 4 tiles over roaded terrain. Even then it saves 1 worker turn. Workers seldom need to move very far, so the effect is tiny.

4. It is a detour, only a 3 turn detour, but still a detour. Why make a detour without a good reason?

5. Pikemen are a useless unit against the longbowmen we'll be facing, knights and macemen are much better against them. I doubt we'll ever have to build a single pikeman in this entire game.

 

[Provolution]

1. It does not double the speed, it increases road movement by one, as has been pointed out several times. You seem to have missed that citizens input everytime though.

Well, if this was the case, I am sorry that I did not specify that particular point enough, I should have written 1/3 extra movement.
1/3 is still plenty of reason for me to support engineering.
Then again, the real problem here is that you are not too concerned with either Daveshacks poll for rethinking the game or with Tanktunkers polling standards, as long as it carries your agenda to let criticism stay silent. I support the democracy beeline, but only when given room for other policies in tandem with it.

2. The speed of reinforcements has almost no effect on the speed of the war, as most of our troops are inside enemy territory, or so close that the extra movement won't save anything.

The road movie is key for having a follow up war with Rome, where the troops will be redeployed much faster. I see that the war may go faster with a quick follow up war on Rome. Build needed units to win and be done with it.

3. The speed at which workers can improve our empire is not influenced heavily by the road movement. Engineering will only have effect when workers need to move more than 4 tiles over roaded terrain. Even then it saves 1 worker turn. Workers seldom need to move very far, so the effect is tiny.

The effect is as tiny as you decide, of course, I cannot make you think along the same lines. The point stands, the quick allocation of workers south-north is key in this game. Even a tile faster movement helps.

4. It is a detour, only a 3 turn detour, but still a detour. Why make a detour without a good reason?

To be correct, it can be a 2 turn or a 3 turn research route. It is not a detour.

5. Pikemen are a useless unit against the longbowmen we'll be facing, knights and macemen are much better against them. I doubt we'll ever have to build a single pikeman in this entire game.

You are putting the cart before the horse here. I never intended to use the pikemen in this very second, for the German War, but for the upcoming Roman War, as they are likely to get knights and other things with the speed the recent wars have been going. To be very honest, the game has gotten one-sided this term, and someone might just need some healthy opposition.

The tech office is getting worse by the day, and the military seems casual about how wars are run.

 

[Tanktunker]

If every claim you make is focused on the roman war, why not wait for the roman war to research Engineering?

 

[Provolution]

Because we may want to regroup quickly following the German War, and we may want to build pikemen in advance of the Roman war, knowing the difficulty to book needed production time.

But obviously the Chieftain and Chief Scientist found each other, and at the same time ignored a whole lot of people, which is why we are having this poll.

 

[Tanktunker]

Would you stop with the personal attacks?
Nobody was ignored, the poll was at 5-4 when I posted the instructions, just because it wasn't 5-4 in favor of engineering doesn't mean an inquisition is in order.

 

[Provolution]

This was not a personal attack, I am merely stating the fact the poll was handled badly.

 

[Tanktunker]

Then why not merely state that the poll was handled badly without being so melodramatic?

 

[Provolution]

Melodramatic with some legalese rhetoric is the nature of handling disagreements in this game, as you can read in the last terms exchanges. That is the norm, it seems. Unfortunately I might as well add, but when in Rome, do as Romans do.

However, if Engineering loses this poll, the case naturally ends.

 

[grant2004]

Provolution, I'm now very confused at what your intentions are.

Last night I came to you and politely asked that you withdraw your legal case so that our tech path could be decided by one poll so that we would have a simple direct and speedy resolution to this problem, instead you attacked me as a devious trickster, and then created a third attempt to change our research path.

Are you trying to create an ambiguous result? Are you trying to delay the turnchat unnecessarily, or are you hoping that one of these attempts will create the result you want to see, at which point you'll argue that is the one true way of resolving our tech path dilemma?

 

[Provolution]

I think you are trying to get the man, not the ball here Grant, but that is not a surprise. This is how we met in another game incident where we landed on different sides. Do not question my intentions, but question your own champions that have been ignoring the ones wanting engineering for a long while. Maybe we have something to say too? It would be fair to assess your own agendas as well as questioning the agendas of the pollster and the Chieftain, which had lead a very one-sided argumentation on the matter.
I hope you do not only see me here, but also the ones that want "engineering" in this poll.

The poll you are pointing to (Daveshacks latest) was set up to handle the grander discussion and general abuse of those that have not been listened, not the specific handling of a new poll determining techs. Besides, DS poll would have been 50-50 when Hyro could have started this TC, as it stands now, and would not have resolved the issue. The problem with DS' poll was that it opened for removing the democracy beeline entirely, without opening for keeping democracy beeline, with adding engineering first.

I tried a CC with good intentions, and when that failed to be handled in time, I now see we got ample of time to get a new poll finally determining if we are to have engineering before our two wars start in earnest.

Of course, the side only advocating democracy alone, and nothing else, scorns this maneuver. This faction has tried every single conceivable trick in the book to block engineering (only 2-3 turns of research). With a solid block vote, and tactics for splitting the remainder, one-sided discussions and so on - a firm control of the outcome has been upheld against majority interests.

Put it this way, if you could complain on the "Longbowman", we are entitled to do the same, and even more so (tech is a bigger game decision than a singular unit move). I know exactly where you stand, which is fine for reference. But we are not easily abused, and we have gotten our lesson. But quite possibly, you see it the way that we are subject to lesser rights than your group, which is adamantly clear, this is why all this is happening.

The main objective with this poll is to clarify if we are to have engineering now, or much much later in the game. Pure and simple.

 

[donsig]

If every claim you make is focused on the roman war, why not wait for the roman war to research Engineering?

"The victorious warrior wins first and then goes to war..."

@Everyone else: Have we decided upon a victory type? There is at least one that requires engineering...

 

[fed1943]

Eng. speeds units.
So, less required to perform the same tasks.
More chances that our two military cities can build all military
and free all others to get knowledge and fortune.
Best regards,

 

[ordinaryguy]

"The victorious warrior wins first and then goes to war..."

@Everyone else: Have we decided upon a victory type? There is at least one that requires engineering...

No we haven't, though I've been trying to get everyone to do so. Currently, there is a tie between domination, diplomatic and space in the recent Victory Conditions Poll.

Is engineering needed to research Rocketry?

 

[DaveShack]

Engineering is needed to research a lot of stuff.

 

[donsig]

You can launch a spaceship without flight but I don't think it can be done without engineering.

 

[Provolution]

Well, someone said Engineering was "Useless".
Maybe they should have a chat with the 5 out of 1000 Americans, 9 out of 1000 Japanese or 3 out of 1000 Europeans that keep our Western world intact and rich.

Being treated and considered a war criminal from Serbia or Iran just because you work the legal system of this game, just to make some legitimate engineering happen, is unfair, especially as it was almost cheated out of our hands. Being villainized for fixing things up, where the culprit is hailed as the new wine is not a game I thrive in. I wish you good luck with the new Science Head.