English occupation of Ireland

[pat4]

Hello I'm Pat,

I recently started a heated argument on a scenario thread about the English invasion of Ireland. Let me first say I don't wish to be a slagging match more a historical political discussion on the past English invasion of Ireland and the present occupation of Northern Ireland as well as the future of them six counties.
I would like to begin with my own political beliefs on the subject. I am a Nationalist ( not a Republican ). My Great Grandfather fought and died in the 1916 rising, my uncle was wrongfully imprisoned on terrorist charges during the troubles in Northern Ireland. He was released eleven years ago with an apology and a small amount of compensation.
I believe only a united Ireland is right. I realise that this can't realisticly happen in the next thirty years but it should be eventually. Historicaly and geographicaly Ireland is one nation and that is the way I believe it should be.


So give me your thoughts and feeling on this touchy subject. Don't be afraid to speak your mind on it strong things sometimes have to be said.

 

[StarWorms]

I think it's best left as it is. Things are settling down. I see your point but who would control the whole or Ireland? Would Ireland become part of the UK again or would Northern Ireland become part of Ireland? Whichever option is chosen, a lot of people will be against the decision and I think the last thing we need is more trouble.

 

[Hotpoint]

Historically Ireland was always separate Kingdoms really rather than a unified nation, in fact it was one of the Irish Kings that originally invited the "English" (they were still more like Norman French at the time) to Ireland in the first place. Henry II then went on to conquer the rest of the country on a papal mandate (the Catholic Church in Rome wasn't that keen on the slightly different version that was present in Ireland).

You can't really call the Protestants in Northern Ireland English either because they're actually of Scots descent... which incidentally means if you want to go further back they're actually Irish too because the Scots were invaders from Ireland who conquered the Picts in the area we now call Scotland after them (yes weird as it sounds the Irish invaded Britain long before the British invaded Ireland!).

You know the majority of people in Britain would be only too happy to be rid of Northern Ireland. It costs us a damn fortune and for the most part we think that Ulstermen of either the Protestant or Catholic variety are insane. We just don't take religion very seriously here and tend to think people who do to the extent they'll kill each other are downright loopy.

Incidentally my Grandfather was in the Irish Free State Army and fought for the Treaty and the elected Dublin Government during the Civil War. He wanted a United Ireland too but it wasn't going to happen and letting the majority protestant Six Counties go was the best available result at the time.

 

[GinandTonic]

With Hotpoint really. Bottom line is the public votes and it is made so. Generally we think they are all a bunch of loons we'd be best shot of but if the people vote to be part of the union then so they stay.

The thing that really wirds me out is how anyone can be millitantly CoE. As it is in England it is the most wish-washy liberal nonsense. Taking it seriously seems to be missing the whole point.

 

[Plotinus]

I must agree with Hotpoint too. The reason Northern Ireland is currently part of Britain is not because of some kind of vestigial imperialism on the part of the British government, it is because most people in Northern Ireland want to be part of Britain. It doesn't make a lot of sense to claim that the island of Ireland "should" be one nation when rather a lot of people who actually live there don't want it to be - that's like the Chinese claiming that Tibet "should" be part of China when most Tibetans don't want it to be. Come to think of it, the Chinese also use the argument that Tibet is "historically" part of China, which supposedly overrides the wishes of its inhabitants today. In Ireland's case, Hotpoint is right to point out that, historically, Ireland has spent most of its time disunited; to claim that it is somehow natural or usual for it to be a single nation is thus quite false. But in any case I don't think that such considerations have any bearing on the matter. What counts is what its inhabitants today want, not what the situation was centuries ago; and its inhabitants today mostly want to maintain the status quo. Plus, of course, if anyone tried to unite Northern Ireland with the Republic, they'd have the Unionist paramilitaries to deal with...

 

[REDY]

I am for united Irish island. Yes arguments againist it are strong, but everybody who will look at map, have to admit that NI is strange part of UK. I know that is there religion and some others crappy things, but I still support idea of removing NI. Sry 4 English

 

[Disenfrancised]

What do you mean by "geographically one nation"? Just because its a single island it should be one state ?

 

[pat4]

it is because most people in Northern Ireland want to be part of Britain. It doesn't make a lot of sense to claim that the island of Ireland "should" be one nation when rather a lot of people who actually live there don't want it to be - that's like the Chinese claiming that Tibet "should" be part of China when most Tibetans don't want it to be. Come to think of it, the Chinese also use the argument that Tibet is "historically" part of China, which supposedly overrides the wishes of its inhabitants today. In Ireland's case, Hotpoint is right to point out that, historically, Ireland has and its inhabitants today mostly want to maintain the status quo. QUOTE]


I must disagree with you it may have been the case in 1920 that the majority of people were unionists. But today the majority of people are Nationalists and want a United Ireland but Neither Westminster nor Dail Eirean want to have a vote because it might cause Paramilitary organisation by a slight minority.

And for arguments sake if it was 50/50 why would they side with the Unionists?

Even more so over the whole island the unionists are hugley out-numbered by about 3.6-.4 I mean thats crazy.

Sorry quote didn't work properly.

 

[Hotpoint]

I must disagree with you it may have been the case in 1920 that the majority of people were unionists. But today the majority of people are Nationalists and want a United Ireland but Neither Westminster nor Dail Eirean want to have a vote because it might cause Paramilitary organisation by a slight minority.

In a 2004 opinion poll 59% of people in Northern Ireland said they preferred to remain in the United Kingdom. And in elections 54% vote for Pro-Unionist Parties, that's still a majority to stay in the UK although the size of the Unionist majority continues to slide over time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland

And for arguments sake if it was 50/50 why would they side with the Unionists?

It's not 50/50. A clear majority still want to be part of the United Kingdom (whether the UK really wants them is another matter entirely)

Even more so over the whole island the unionists are hugley out-numbered by about 3.6-.4 I mean thats crazy.

Why does the opinion of the whole of the Island matter? One could just as easily argue that since the Republic makes up only a small percentage of the population of the British Isles that if the majority of people in the Islands wanted to return Southern Ireland to the Union that would be okay?

Incidentally whenever I'm in Ireland (my family is from Wexford and we're of Catholic ancestry btw) I tend to run across people who don't want the North because they don't want Unionist Paramilitaries bombing Dublin instead of Republican ones bombing London like they used to.

 

[privatehudson]

I'd be reasonably happy to let Northern Ireland go if the majority of the population voted for union with the Republic. However I don't think that would be a particularly good move since it wouldn't resolve the problem, merely shift the responsibility for it onto the Republic's shoulders. I think a better solution would be a gradual move towards the region becoming almost self governing.

The funniest thing about discussions about this topic is that at some point its likely that a fiercly Nationalist Irish-American will join in spouting off about one thing and another. I find some small amusement in asking them how many generations back their relations lived in Ireland then pointing out that technically I'm more Irish than they are.

But heck, I'm from near Liverpool, it would be considered abnormal if I didn't have at least one Irish relation

 

[pat4]

I think a better solution would be a gradual move towards the region becoming almost self governing.

SELF GOVERNING are you joking or mad, no-one in the country or really the world want that. Honestly self governing would criple a country like that.

 

[EdwardTking]

The Past

Question is where to start. Anyway ~ if starting about 100 years ago.

By 1910 Britain had already agreed in principle that the Irish should have their own government, having provided for governments in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa and created the Indian National congress.
The problem was that people were arguing the details and it got stuck.

The conscription inspired Easter rising in 1916 was a disaster for Ireland
and Britain. It was not the start of an independent united Ireland as often
claimed, but an obstacle in the process. This is because the Easter Rising
and its stupid suppression resulted in an extreme polarisation replacing
a range of opinions in Ireland and to a lesser extent Britain.

The polarisation was, and this is a simplification, into:

(a) catholic republicans who wanted 100% independence immediately
(b) protestant loyalists who wished to remain as part of the UK.

And it was this polarisation that split the island, not the English.
If there had not been the Easter rising, an Irish government
would likely have been in existence by 1930 and Ireland would
had its own government although within UK economic and naval
alliance defence spheres for some time, like Australia, Canada.

So militant fenian terrorism delayed that by 4 generations.


The Present

Britain, Northern Ireland and Eire are reunited as part of the
European Union. Whether regarded as NW1, NW2 & NW3;
or NW1 and NW2 is like an argument about zone codes.

Fighting over Norther Ireland would make about as much
sense as California and Washington fighting over Oregon.


The Future

Britain and Ireland face very similar choices:

(a) existence as giant county councils under EU rule
(b) puppet states under emperor Bush nth
(c) occupied by the Islamic Caliphanate.

in all instances riding bicycles as oil supplies deplete, and partly
sinking under the waves as the South pole melts.

 

[privatehudson]

SELF GOVERNING are you joking or mad, no-one in the country or really the world want that. Honestly self governing would criple a country like that.

They already have a basic form of self government in its early stages. It was part of the Good Friday Agreement which I understand was approved by 71% of those who voted in NI and 94% of those who voted in Ireland. Apparently some people do want it then. That it doesn't work particularly well says a great deal about the politicians in that region.

However I didn't say what people wanted, I said what I personally thought might be better in an ideal world. I don't see a united Ireland happening anytime soon for the reasons laid out, so in lieu of that I would be quite happy to see increased local control over the regions affairs just so long as its done democratically and fairly. Perhaps if the two sides gradually learnt more about working together in order to govern themselves there might be less clashes when the issue of soverignty is finally resolved sometime in the future.

Well that's the idea anyway, the reality is that the sharing process tends to break down when one side doesn't get what they want.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

I am for united Irish island. Yes arguments againist it are strong, but everybody who will look at map, have to admit that NI is strange part of UK. I know that is there religion and some others crappy things, but I still support idea of removing NI. Sry 4 English

Don't apologise to the English - they don't care. Apologise to the majority of people who live in Northern Ireland who disagree with you.

 

[Plotinus]

Even more so over the whole island the unionists are hugley out-numbered by about 3.6-.4 I mean thats crazy.

I don't see that that's much of an argument. Most Chinese people think it's OK to occupy Tibet, but that doesn't make it all right. Similarly, suppose that most French people thought Northern Ireland should be part of France - would that give them the right to overrule the inhabitants of Northern Ireland? I don't see that the views of people in the Republic are really here or there, any more than the views of people in mainland Britain - the important thing is what the Northern Irish themselves want, and as has been pointed out, most of them want to maintain the status quo.

 

[brachy-pride]

I don't see that that's much of an argument. Most Chinese people think it's OK to occupy Tibet, but that doesn't make it all right. Similarly, suppose that most French people thought Northern Ireland should be part of France - would that give them the right to overrule the inhabitants of Northern Ireland? I don't see that the views of people in the Republic are really here or there, any more than the views of people in mainland Britain - the important thing is what the Northern Irish themselves want, and as has been pointed out, most of them want to maintain the status quo.

I believe Ireland is a unity, I think when it was a colony it was seen as a unity by the english too


you say most people in north ireland want to continue being a part of the UK, but if in the near future those who want to join the rest of ireland become the majority in say, half of the territory of North ireland, what do we do then?

Let half of north ireland join the rest of ireland? do we continue doing that until 99% of ireland is only 1 country but with some small pseudo-colonial outposts gibraltar/hong kong style still ruled by the UK?

Or would england give the territory to ireland?
(something I doubt, since the english prefer giving independence to former colonies having them integrated in the commonwealth before giving the territory to other countries, see Belize)

I believe there is right or wrong beyond the wishes of a population, altough no one likes to move obviously

 

[brachy-pride]

Tibet is not a good comparison, in this case Tibet would be all ireland, and North Ireland would be Tibet regions were since the chinese invasion ethnic han chinese have become the majority.

In China there is a perfect anology further north

Ireland would be Mongolia, and north ireland would be the chinese province of inner Mongolia that used to be mongol but now has a chinese majority.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

I believe there is right or wrong beyond the wishes of a population, altough no one likes to move obviously

What we should do is kind of awkward, but what we shouldn't do is obvious in my opinion. We can't force any change on Northern Ireland without their consent. To suggest otherwise is anachronistic loonacy. Are you really suggesting we boot out half the population so you can have your geographical unity? If that's the price of a united Ireland it ain't worth it.

 

[GinandTonic]

I believe Ireland is a unity, I think when it was a colony it was seen as a unity by the english too


you say most people in north ireland want to continue being a part of the UK, but if in the near future those who want to join the rest of ireland become the majority in say, half of the territory of North ireland, what do we do then?

Let half of north ireland join the rest of ireland? do we continue doing that until 99% of ireland is only 1 country but with some small pseudo-colonial outposts gibraltar/hong kong style still ruled by the UK?

Or would england give the territory to ireland?
(something I doubt, since the english prefer giving independence to former colonies having them integrated in the commonwealth before giving the territory to other countries, see Belize)

I believe there is right or wrong beyond the wishes of a population, altough no one likes to move obviously

Here is how it works - the people vote for the government they want.

Terribly simple. If the people of NI, Gib or the Falklands vote for independence or to merge with geographically closer nations then they do. If they vote to remain with the UK then they do.

ATM NI is 2-1ish in favor of remaining part of the Union, so part of the union it remains. Gib is >98% for the UK, so it stays. The Flalklands are 100% against joining Argentina, so they stay.

The people have the right to self-determination. Its actually one of the few things worth fighting a war over, this self-determination lark.

 

[Verbose]

Since both the UK and Ireland are members of the EU maybe the conflict could eventually be handled by a blurring of the NI border between them?

(Provided the EU is allowed to become a politically significant entity in the lives of British people.)