Enhancing the flavor of certain civs

The Sidar are descended from people who worshiped Arawn, although the god of death did not care and has never intervened on their behalf. (His archangel Gyra saved them from basium once though.) Many still revere him, but not to the extent of their ancestors.


It could almost be said that Laroth is the real patron god of the Sidar. They don't know who he is or what he wants, but shades owe their existence to him and they do his bidding.

The Waning ritual was discovered in the library of Barathrum, the Once Elven city Haerlond Gossam built in the Well of Shadows. This library has a relatively small collection, but every tome there is priceless and rare; the books come from the Land of the Dead, where the greatest authors of previous ages finished their masterpieces. The Once Elves took these with them as they escaped from Laroth, and made them available to traveling scholars from Erebus to read and copy.

The Books of Laroth were among them (although technically Laroth entered the Otherworld without dying first). As a young man Sandalphon was granted access to the library, and became to first to stumble upon these tomes. He made a copy, and returned home to his people to share the ritual.


Becoming a shade grants immortality, but it might better be described as eternal death than eternal life. Unbeknownst to those who first used it, the process gradually sacrifices one's own soul, not merely turning it into energy and life force to sustain the self (like the vampiric ritual does to the soul's of one's victims) but siphoning off most of the power to Laroth. It seems likely that Sidar souls (or soul fragments) are the stuff from which the netherblade was forged.

Most shades start out as passionate dedicated beings. They tend to be obsessive about something, be it art, science, commerce, engineering, or war. They don't think a normal mortal life will give them enough time to perfect their skills, so they make the bargain in order to life long enough to see their vision come to fruition. However, the process robs them of all that made them want to live. As they loose their soul, they loose all feeling, all emotions, all sense of purpose. If Sandalphon is a good example, the lack of a soul makes them not even miss the important things in life (like love), although their bodies still wish they could experience physical pleasure as well as they used to. Most can go on for centuries perfecting their craft while acting purely out of habit, but eventually that is not motivation enough to drive them on. Those who don't opt for suicide will eventually fade away into little more than a whisper born on the wind.

Shades can still die a violent death, but they are very hard to kill. Most who die violently probably just decided they didn't care enough any more to seriously try to stay alive.

It can take great effort to see a shade, both on the part of the shade and the viewer. Shades see the world around them as if through the same mist that others see them. It is easy to forget a shade is there, and it is easy for a shade to forget the world exists. Without emotional bonds, shades often find their memories especially cloudy. It is not uncommon to forget that one has a family.

I suspect the Sidar have great reverence for the bodies of the dead and abhor undead in large part because they need these physical remnants in order to remind themselves that they once had friends and family.


I don't think most Sidar are actually shades, but many have opted for the transformation. Many of their cities now appear to be ghost towns, but probably looked perfectly normal when the houses were first built by the then-mortal Sidar.



I suspect that Sandalphon's copy of the Books of Laroth was imperfect. Ratha Denmora (who was already a shade) returned to Barathrum years later to study the original text in detail. (The text likely had many spells in it, which Sandalphon may not have recorded, including the Sever Soul ability later taught to Sidar hunters and assassins.) He came to the library at the same time as Talia Gossam, yet the Once elves soon forgot that he was there. Using one of Auric's friends as a distraction, he managed to pass through the gate to the Otherworld, hoping to meet Arawn in person and pledge his loyalty to the God of Death. Instead, he met one of Arawn's angels, who having grown tired of the god's inaction had sided with Laroth and his rebels. He gave Ratha the netherblade, which had been fashioned by Laroth to bind the souls of its victims to the Netherworld, never to return. It was blessed so that it struck truest against those most favored by the gods, as Denmora believed that the other gods had not the right to decide life and death and so should not be given the opportunity to claim powerful mortal souls to turn into angels and demons. Of course, the real reason was that Laroth needed such powerful souls to join his army in order for his coup of the throne of death to have a chance.
 
Sidar: if you've got recon with centuries of experience roaming your countryside, mightn't that countryside be riddled with traps? Pit traps, magical traps, entangling traps, and other inconveniences which don't cost the Sidar any blood? They don't have golems and won't use undead, but if you've got hundreds of years to think about protecting your land, some unique defensive advantages might come to mind.

Sandalphon is Industrious + Defensive as his traits, I think that this second trait does a decent job of representing such activity.
 
Ahwaric, I'm working the Grigori a bit atm and thought you might like some of the ideas... Obviously, the main thing is expanding what grants adventurer points for the global counter we both use. ;)

The biggest thing is actually inspired by MagisterCultuum... Adding a 'Homestead' improvement. Can work farm/pasture resources, upgrades from farm, only for Grigori. Main benefit is that they get a new building (Thinking the Forum, atm) midgame, which grants one 'Statesman' specialist for every Homestead in the city's radius. This new specialist provides 1:commerce:, 1:culture:, no GP. Instead, it adds to the Adventurer counter. ;)

Thinking about allowing the homestead to spawn defenders, as with MagisterMod... If I do, they'll be leashed to the plot.

I also merged the 'Dadga's Memorial' from Orbis, giving it a Statesman rather than Priest.


Edit: Apparently the vanilla 'Free Specialist from Improvement' code doesn't allow you to specify which specialist; Will write a function that does. ;)
 
Another (little) idea for the Luchuirp: They could get a boon by owning/ by first visiting the guardians of pristine pass tile. As golem crafters they should be able to analyze these old structures. Something little like getting some free research or something bigger like a free immobile gargoyle in their capital.
Concerning gargoyles. IMHO they are quite weak. They cost as much as iron golems without offering much in return (an iron golem, that is enhanced by a strength 5 Barnaxus (0,5x10=5), that is fully fortified (0,25x10=2,5) and that gets 50% defense from city (0,5x10=5) has 22,5 defense and can attack with 15 strength. A gargoyle, that is enhanced by a strength 5 Barnaxus (0,5x8=4), that is fully fortified (0,5x8=4) and that gets 50% defense from city (0,5x8=4) and 25% from his own city defense ability (0,25x8=2), has 22 defense, but can only attack with strength 12. Even if the enemy has bombed your city down to 0% defense the gargoyle is has still only a slightly better defense than the iron golem (18 strength gargoyle vs. 17,5 strength iron golem) while the offensive abilities of the iron golems stay a lot better. Engineering and Ironworking both cost about the same so the units can be compared.
I don't want them to be good offenders. Gargoyles should stay defenders. That is their purpose. But they should at least be much better defenders than iron golems.
You could boost gargoyles by giving them the city defense I promotion.
You could boost their defensive strength by 2 leaving their offensive strength as it is. The base strength of a golem is always as high as the unit they are replacing +mithril (without them being able to get promotions) so a 8/10 gargoyle would fit the pattern (as a longbowman has 5/6+weapon promotions)

The trap idea for Sidar is pretty cool and unique. If this spell does not break hidden/ only breaks it occasionally you could even use it in enemy lands.
What do the others think?
 
I'd like to think of Sidar as extreme isolationists. A faction in History of Three Kingdoms mod has a trait that makes so that non-neighbouring factions cannot declare war unless relations are horrible. Maybe this could be borrowed for Sidar?
 
Does this only work for the AI or also in some Way against the human Player?
 
I'm not aware of the exact mechanics, but the option to declare war is removed just like with vassals or allies. It works for both human and AI players.
 
I'd like to think of Sidar as extreme isolationists. A faction in History of Three Kingdoms mod has a trait that makes so that non-neighboring factions cannot declare war unless relations are horrible. Maybe this could be borrowed for Sidar?

I don't know how much of this mechanic is already in Civ, but I always liked that Europa Universalis had a mechanic where you would get a bonus in researching techs that a nation bordering yours already had.

This mechanic sort of makes certain civs and civics have a bit more of an advantage in tech development. I mean if you are an open, friendly Civ with free-markets, there is a lot of people coming and going and your economic model would favor innovation.

The dark side to that is that new ideas and technologies can also screw up existing established traditions and cause strife. Historically Guild X resisted New Technology Y because it might put them out of business. I will say it again, I believe that Orbis would be much better if a version of the Rebellion mod was put in. That way the downside to being open is that allowing so much into your culture, you run the risk of a lot of culture wars in your own Civ. If you look at all the problems we have in the United States compares to more homogeneous cultures you see what I mean.

So getting back to isolation; sure you're not getting a tech bonus, but you are also making it really hard to spy on you; foreign corporations and religions should have a harder time to be founded and I would almost think you'd get some sort of defensive bonus to show you know your country well.

I don't know, maybe I just suck at Civ but I tend to find that most civics are worthless or the benefit doesn't outweigh the cost. I rarely ever use survival what's not to like about free-market? I just wish there was a way (again possibly through a bit of the Rebellion mod) to have certain civics cost more to use. (I mean shouldn't free-market civics have occasional market crash events?)

Anyway I think that one advantage of being an isolationist Civ like the Sidar is perhaps you wouldn't get asked to help other Civs as much. I mean it's one thing to ask the free and open Kuriotates for stuff but you'd think that most Leaders would sort of know asking the Sidar about anything would probably be futile and thus wouldn't try.
 
While I understand the reason for it, I think Civs like the Clan and Khazad should be allowed a few national units for mages. Not being able to get access to the dispel magic spell to change mana nodes does make it harder for them to be able to build any of the Tower Wonders.

I mean you can rent them via the mercenary option, but then it's just luck you get a mage w/the right spells.

I don't know, maybe they could have a UU where they get one mage as a hero. I mean for the clan couldn't you have Ji be that magical hero?
 
Sorry for lack of intput recently... But the good thing is, I am coding. Will try to update the changelog.

Also, thanks for all the nfo on Sidar, MagisterCultuum. I understand their background much better now.
Understand, but not entirelly like it. I think I might drop the soul-draining part, at least regarding mechanics.

Regarding traps, not sure. It might be micro-management nightmare, and I agree that is partially covered by homeland promotion.
The 'hidden' trait (or however it is called) I think was impoerted to LENA by Opera for SIdar. I will add it to Orbis, too.
Another (little) idea for the Luchuirp: They could get a boon by owning/ by first visiting the guardians of pristine pass tile.
Great idea. I will add an event firing when they release the guardians (convert one of them?) or enter the guardina tile. A bonus for all golem units, especially gargoyles? Strength 1? Or maybe even an ability to learn. Gargoyles alwas seemed more alive to me, or at least more independent than other golems.

By the way, I am tempted to allow elementals to gain XP. It will be usefull for the dao. That might be applied to golems, too. But that would change the whole mechanics, so I think I should make it very limited - i.e. gargoyle only.
Ahwaric, I'm working the Grigori a bit atm and thought you might like some of the ideas... Obviously, the main thing is expanding what grants adventurer points for the global counter we both use. ;)
The biggest thing is actually inspired by MagisterCultuum... Adding a 'Homestead' improvement.
Thinking about allowing the homestead to spawn defenders, as with MagisterMod... If I do, they'll be leashed to the plot.
Edit: Apparently the vanilla 'Free Specialist from Improvement' code doesn't allow you to specify which specialist; Will write a function that does. ;)
I will take a look, thanks :)
Regarding homestead, why not simply use villages/towns? I see no point of adding another improvement just for the above mechanics.
Good luck with the code expanding, will be usefull :)
While I understand the reason for it, I think Civs like the Clan and Khazad should be allowed a few national units for mages.
Clan has no problem building mages.
Khazad recently got runecaster, which is intended as a bridge allowing adept upgrades (to high priests/paladins). They are mage/priest hybrid, but can't use dispell - I think it is great for both flavour & balance to let them cast it.
Not being able to get access to the dispel magic spell to change mana nodes does make it harder for them to be able to build any of the Tower Wonders.
Not every victory condition should be equally easy for every civ. I do not thnk Khazad should be able to build tower of mastery at all.

Edit: updated changelog
 
I will take a look, thanks :)
Regarding homestead, why not simply use villages/towns? I see no point of adding another improvement just for the above mechanics.
Good luck with the code expanding, will be usefull :)

Well, one very good reason... I got aggravated attempting to add the ability to specify which specialist is granted on the Building (would have needed a complete rewrite of their system...), so I added a new tag to Improvements which causes them to grant a specialist to the nearest city able to work the plot. It will only be applied to ONE city (so if you have multiple cities able to work the plot, only the one that actually has that plot highlighted will get the specialist), code is run making sure the correct number of specialists are applied, so having culture expand around a new improvement will add the specialist, etc, etc. ;)

I just finished testing it, actually... Had to add a new array to cities, to make sure we track each specialist type separately. Other than that, and some code in CvCity::doTurn, it's 14 lines (8 of which are just '}') in CvPlot, a few lines in CvCityAI so the AI understands it's a good improvement, and then the tag itself which is easy. It's not a list, though it could be; Decided to not allow that possibility, as it would be FAR too powerful. Likewise, you can't specify how many specialists are granted; It's always going to be 1.

A few other things you may or may not be interested in: The Grigori will be getting a small Roman flavor (won't really be obvious, just a good way for me to think about it), while the Dural (who you don't have. :lol:) will get a Greek flavor. I'm also going to change the Ordo Machinarum drastically... The Mechanos won't found it automatically, will be open to anyone, name change, priest/temple change, etc. The main thing is it's an 'Agnostic' religion; New tag enabling it to be adopted by even agnostic leaders, though not Intolerant ones like the Emperor. Yes, this includes Cassiel; It's a philosophy, not a 'true' religion.

An entry KillerClowns wrote for a yet-to-be-added Dural 'School of the Machines':
Spoiler :
...unfortunately, since most nations and scholars don't take the Ordo Machinarum seriously, or treat it as a philosophical school, not a theological one, finding scholarly research on their rites is tricky. The Ordo Machinarum itself actively detests being called a religion. In fact, your essay for next week will be on whether or not the Ordo Machinarum is, according to the both the definition given on the syllabus and accepted by Dural scholars, and your own definition, a religion at all. However, some theologians have done research on the Ordo Machinarum; we will be using Ozziel's “Minor Faiths of Erebus,” which is easily his most complete, scholarly, and – both literally and figuratively – sober works. We'll begin with arguments, both by Ozziel and others as to how the Ordo Machinarum fits the definition of a religion, and then examine the counterarguments from both the Ordo Machinarum's critics and its followers...


Clan has no problem building mages.
Khazad recently got runecaster, which is intended as a bridge allowing adept upgrades (to high priests/paladins). They are mage/priest hybrid, but can't use dispell - I think it is great for both flavour & balance to let them cast it.

Not every victory condition should be equally easy for every civ. I do not thnk Khazad should be able to build tower of mastery at all.


Oooh... Might have to steal the Runecaster, hadn't heard about them yet.

I agree here by the way, the Khazad shouldn't be building the tower.
 
Here's a screenshot of the improvement (and the plotlist help), btw... It's the big building on the hill.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0063.jpg


EDIT: Gave the nif a bit of a rotation in response to GreyFox... Here's a new screenshot, only difference is the rotation.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0064.jpg
 
Rotated is better, but definetly too big, I would resize it down by 1/4 or 1/3.
BTW, where does this art come from? I do not recognize it and might find some use... (I suspect a building from human Kohan II set, right?)

Also, I still do not know why not add that tag to towns - they need to grow too, plus falavorwise it makes more sense (town has specialized citizens, upgraded farm still consists mostly of peasants I think). And you do not need to add an extra improvement.
 
Rotated is better, but definetly too big, I would resize it down by 1/4 or 1/3.
BTW, where does this art come from? I do not recognize it and might find some use... (I suspect a building from human Kohan II set, right?)

Also, I still do not know why not add that tag to towns - they need to grow too, plus flavorwise it makes more sense (town has specialized citizens, upgraded farm still consists mostly of peasants I think). And you do not need to add an extra improvement.

I'm going to shrink it, yes. And yes, Kohan 2 Human set... It's the Barracks. ;)

Can't add it to towns because the specialist would then be granted to anyone who constructs a town. Which isn't a bad thing (and may be done, with a different specialist), I just don't want the Statesman granted by it. I'd do a unique Town improvement, but that slot is taken by the Enclave.

So basically, it's to keep the specialist Grigori-only. With this new tag, it is NOT activated by buildings; It's constant. Adding it to Towns would be a bad thing IMO.
 
I see - yes, unless you find a way to rewrite it to require building (or trait), you are stuck with homestead.

Unfortunatelly, current settings mean that captured grigori cities (or lands in general, as you can raze the city and keep the homesteads) will grant free specialists to anyone that owns the city - not something I would like...

Edit:Changed my mind, this discussion fits here, sorry :)
 
I see - yes, unless you find a way to rewrite it to require building (or trait), you are stuck with homestead.

Unfortunatelly, current settings mean that captured grigori cities (or lands in general, as you can raze the city and keep the homesteads) will grant free specialists to anyone that owns the city - not something I would like...

Final post on the subject (mainly because I'm hoping others use it too. :lol:) - I'm adding code so that if an Improvement has a PrereqCiv, the specialist is only added if the owning player (maybe City? Would work for Tolerant leaders then) matches that civilization.

Edit: Done with that tweak, btw. Still need to update the textkey, but the specialist is added in Grigori cities and not in Amurite, which are the ones I tested it with. :lol: If the improvement has a prereqCivilization (as would any that would be designed with one civ in mind), it will only grant specialists for that civ. Regardless of if others conquer it. Went with PLAYER civilization, btw, not City. ;)

You should really join the RifE group, then I'd be able to talk about it in our team forum instead. :lol:
 
Concerning gargoyles I got an idea that would make them into the guardians they are supposed to be. It would also give them a distinct use - what they are IMHO lacking right now.
Strenght 8, marksman, can cast hide (As they look like normal statues) 0 movement ability to switch between cities. (I don't know if units without the air combat type can do so). If a unit moves into a tile next to the gargoyle the gargoyle gains one movement (analogue to the citadel of light building) and thus is able to attack the approaching unit. Instead of moving into the tile of the defeated unit the gargoyle stays in the tile he was attacking from (would be cool if that was possible) Once there is no enemy within reach the gargoyle loses its movement point. Instead of replacing the longbowman he replaces the assassin.
This replacement would be both an advantage and a disadvantage for the Luchuirp. On the one hand they have a very effective city defender on the other hand they lack the field control an assassin offers. But especially they would get an unique unit that is more than a worse Iron Golem.
At last the Guardians of Pristine Pass (which would spawn on three adjectant tiles to the actual world improvement) would actually guard something instead of running around randomly.
 
Can you tell us more about what the Dao elementals? (both flavor and mechanic) Will they be the only elementals that will be able to gain XP or will you change that for all elementals? I would prefer the former as it would be a unique feature for your civ. Or is this not possible?
 
Strenght 8, marksman, can cast hide (As they look like normal statues) 0 movement ability to switch between cities.
While I want to make them more distinct, I ma not sure about the above.
  • marksman - why? gargoyles can be sneaky, true, but I do not think they have that much finesse to be jutsified as marksman. They use stationary hiding;)
  • hide - fits, but I am not sure if that is a good idea... invisible city defender? They should be at least visible in cities, as most units
  • 0 movement - if they get movement when approached by attacker, I do not see a reason to make them immovable on their own.
  • how would you justify them teleporting from city to city

Do not get me wrong, I want new ideas and definetly want to change gargoyles in 0.30.
I just think we should we need something else.
The things that come to my mind when I think of gargoyles: slow, can hide, can set traps, strong on defense.
Regarding guardian, I need to take a look to leash mechanics in rife.
Can you tell us more about what the Dao elementals?
OK :)
The plan Is(as I did not yet implement elemental mechanics)
  • 3 grades of elementals (first is quite weak, third is powerfull), 4-7 types (water, air, fire, earth, spirit, life, death) - the classic elements are in, not sure about the other - can use feedback (I thought of metal one, but that is too much simillar to a golem, or earth one)
  • first grade is quite weak, I am not sure if current elementals should be second or third grade (I think third, they are powerfull, but I will add some dao-only special to enhance them a bit)
  • the grade that elemental can reach depends on both techs & xp (always born as first grade, but might need some bonuses in late game to be able to advance)
  • elementals ale spawned in cities depending on mana avaliable & buildings built
  • elemental temple (will have to find a better name) replaces pagan temple and then you can build 2 elemental "nodes" that enhance certain elementals power & spawning chances, but block the opposite ones
  • elementals will be able to get xp. I can limit this to Dao only, but it has little impact on other ones - they can stay for 3 turns at most (save for pyre of the seraphic ones - I think I will change them to first grade after intorducing dao - you can grow them and grown elementals at start are too powerfull)
  • Also, I am not sure yet, but Dao will probably be unable to use standard mages, but will rely on druid-like casters

I have couple of code problems to solve. First, I would like add special counter to cities, simillar to ones generated by great people. But not sure I can do that (If I succed, I will probably use it for awakened & adventurers)
Second, I wanted a global variable, elemental phase. It would influence how strong are the elementals each turn. But I do not know how to do this, plus it is not vital, so it will probably not be in initially.

By the way, did you check changelog recently? I hope you like the new lunatics.
Not sure about the stygian guards, but I will post more on it in 0.30 workshop thread
 
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