Enhancing the flavor of certain civs

[Valkrionn]

You can ask what are the differences between Sheaim & Khadi - they use the same spawning mechanics, just spawn different units and Khadi do not get more with higher AC
But...

• First, Dao will be in Orbis, Khadi won't
• Second, chinese/tibetan/mongolian flavour of units & buildings
• Third, many elementals, that will be able to grow, with different spawning mechanics
• Fourth, elmental ancestries gained by some standard units on unit creation - they will be half-elementals, having access to some elemental abilities, but not alive (not sure yet, as I am working of on it)
• Special druid-like casters (no standard mages & no priests as they are agnostic)

That is what is decided to come with 0.30, but I might add more. Enough to make them different?

It might change a bit, as I have included recent FfH tweaks to AI diplomacy. Also, I need to tweak leader personalities some day...

Agreed

I think the system is already in - it is called the great people counter No need to add special one, but we might add some bonuses to great people spawning. It is Grigori thing, so it would have to be a bit different, but that should be doable.

I will take a look at scion buildings. The exchange is gone and forum is in as market replacement, so I might just re-add exchange as granary replacement. Makes sense flavourwise, plus needs only minor adjustments.
Regarding scions, I think the current spawning system should be changed. It is too much python and causes certain troubles. I would prefer to move it into dll, but that is hard, and I need to code dao elemental spawning first before attempting this change.

I haven't quite started my work to move spawn systems to the DLL (RL stuff in the way), but looking at the Scions code... I've pretty much decided that either it needs to entirely change, to accommodate a transfer to the DLL without 50 new tags, or it will stay in python while other spawn mechanics don't... Which is something I dislike. Any ideas you have as to how to change their spawn system would be great, though I prefer to keep it random; I'm making sure to include a bRandom tag, so you can easily change from random to a set counter.

Speaking for myself, when I play the sheim, I don't bother with planar gates. They are overpriced, inefficient, and with the recent AI updates, don't give you nearly enough of an army. Instead, I use archers for defense (pyre zombies don't count as defenders), pyre zombies for early game offense, and pyre zombies/mages/ritualists, with an occasional diseased corpse, for mid game offense. Note, it never makes it to the lategame. Playing as the Khadi, it seemed that they were trying to base their army off the planar gate mechanic... but they didn't give them the other advantages that the sheim have. Which means that pyre zombies can't bring them into the lategame, and they don't have the easy benefits of the specter like the sheim do.

The reason why the planar gate mechanic doesn't work is because you can't control how large an army you get. With regular units, I can start spamming them now, and know that I'll be able to get an army capable of taking down my opponent. With planar gates, a city is tied up for innumerable turns (and I have to build it in every city, as opposed to having one city that can spam out a unit a turn) building the gate, and then I don't get any guarantees that a unit will arrive anytime soon. To top it all, I don't get nearly enough units to compete with the AI armies, compared to the number of hammers put into it, and by the time I might get reasonably sized armies, most are so outdated as to be little more than bait, as they have no way to upgrade.

Combining these issues is why the khadi were such a catastrophic failure (hence why there has been some talk of removing them altogether). So if the only difference between the Dao and the Khadi is an asian flavor, they will fail. If, however, you have other mechanics to get these elementals then just a chance of them spawning, and an easy way for them to upgrade in the lategame without making them OP when they first arrive, they might be successful. Now, it could be that I've missed some of what you've said, but the only thing that you have said that appears to be different from a modified planar game mechanic is the elemental ancestries part.

So my questions are then:

Did you nerf other lines of theirs to boost this elemental mechanic?
Are there other ways to get elementals without a planar gate mechanic?
Do they have flavor other than just asian? (aka, are there ways that a normal unit can upgrade somehow into an elemental, or gain elemental abilities somehow other than just an occasional random chance)

I'm sure that I can come up with more, but class is almost out, so I'll return sometime later.

-Colin

I think the Planar Gates could use a bit of a boost. For one thing, there aren't many units... For another, the odds aren't really that high. 6% initially, 9% at AC 50, 12% at AC 75, and 15% at AC 100... Which can be difficult to get to while needing to rely on the initial chance. I think some adjustments there would be in order.

As for the Khadi... IIRC, there's more than just 'talk' of removing them. I AM removing them from RifE (as a Civ, at least; Will be preserved in the form of an Amurite event), and Vehem said he planned to as well... But that post is a few months old, so who knows at this point.

Also, I think a real difference here is that the Dao don't seem like they need to rely on their elemental spawns; They will have standard units, which can get the 'Elemental Ancestry'. The Elementals make a nice mechanic, but it's not an essential one; Like Animals for the Doviello in RifE, you can rely on them if you choose but don't particularly have to.

 

[readercolin]

There may be a real difference between the Khadi and the Dao. The problem is that I haven't read more than the first page of the "eastern civ in development" page, so don't know quite everything about them, and I don't feel like searching through the entire thread to discover that no, nothing has really been said about them because Ahwaric is keeping it fairly tightly under wraps. I don't have a problem with him wanting to keep them secret... but from what he has said I have trouble distinguishing the Dao from the Khadi. This of course may show up once it has actually been released, but for now, I just can't see it.

-Colin

 

[Ahwaric]

I think I have realeased quite much info on Dao, and they are different than Khadi - Valkrionn got general ideas right.
The eastern civ in development is really old, and the info is no longer relevant. It was brainstorming thread mostly.
I guess you will have to wait and see. I prefer to code the civ than to describe it in detail

Palatinate... now that is a civ I keep under wraps...

 

[arkham4269]

As for the Khadi... IIRC, there's more than just 'talk' of removing them. I AM removing them from RifE (as a Civ, at least; Will be preserved in the form of an Amurite event), and Vehem said he planned to as well... But that post is a few months old, so who knows at this point.

As anyone who follows my posts know, I like the Khadi. However it isn't the Civ I like, it is the leader and the back story of a leader following an angel and finding out their following a demon sort of thing.

Perhaps this could be made into a major event instead? In taking about event in the events sub-forum, the idea got going about major quests or bigger events. Perhaps like quests there could be certain big events that have a a certain percentage of happening in the way things like the Leviathan event; they don't happen every game. Sort of like how unless it's flagged, not all special terrain features get put on the map.

Anyway, so I'm thinking that the 'Khadi' event would happen early in the game and give your Civ some sort of bonus and then later in the game when you hit the appropriate tech, you have the option of the Good vs. Evil. Obviously this probably couldn't give to big of a bonus and probably would have to be nixed in multi-player but I think it would be interesting. I mean I always like playing "Rise and Decline of the Third Reich" back in the days of board games with the random optional historical events. (One game Spain came in as an ally to me playing the Italians - it rocked!)

 

[Imuratep]

I have an idea for the Sidar:
Their GP can gain XP every turn until a certain cap (something in the line of Potency + Channeling I). Another possibility would be that they gain a certain amount of XP everytime you search a tech that can be researched by the GP. Or everytime you sac a great person all following GPs gain 2 additional XP (BTW the same could be done for settlers)
In all three cases your immortality mechanic would actually be synergistic with them as every time you sac a gp (for a golden age, a great work, an academy, a wonder etc.) you have a chance to keep it.

 

[arkham4269]

Palatinate... now that is a civ I keep under wraps...

What is the story on the Ngolome and the Jotun? At one time they were contenders for addition.

Not to sound (AGAIN) like a broken record, but is 0.30 going to have a way for barbarian cities to evolve into Civs? I would really like to see barbarians have a random racial promotion so they aren't always orcs and then have them evolve into minor Civs. I also think it would be interesting (if it could be coded) that these races would come from Civ's not currently in the game. (In this I mean if you have 6 'active' Civs, a minor race wouldn't be a copy of them)

If the Jotun get added (even if only as a 'barbarian' civ; not playable) I think it would be neat that given enough time, those Hill Giant forts would become cities.

 

[Valkrionn]

As anyone who follows my posts know, I like the Khadi. However it isn't the Civ I like, it is the leader and the back story of a leader following an angel and finding out their following a demon sort of thing.

Perhaps this could be made into a major event instead? In taking about event in the events sub-forum, the idea got going about major quests or bigger events. Perhaps like quests there could be certain big events that have a a certain percentage of happening in the way things like the Leviathan event; they don't happen every game. Sort of like how unless it's flagged, not all special terrain features get put on the map.

Anyway, so I'm thinking that the 'Khadi' event would happen early in the game and give your Civ some sort of bonus and then later in the game when you hit the appropriate tech, you have the option of the Good vs. Evil. Obviously this probably couldn't give to big of a bonus and probably would have to be nixed in multi-player but I think it would be interesting. I mean I always like playing "Rise and Decline of the Third Reich" back in the days of board games with the random optional historical events. (One game Spain came in as an ally to me playing the Italians - it rocked!)

By 'Major Event', I assume you mean something that has a % chance each game, and can occur for anyone? If so... Yes to the first part, no to the second.

Basically, it will be an Amurite only event - Kahd is an ex-Amurite. I like the flavor of the civ, I just didn't like the mechanic and don't think there's much hope of fixing it without it becoming too much like the Amurites or Sheaim.

The basic idea for the event (final option requires Grey Fox to finish his Field Marshals, but he's working on that now that he's done with the new leader mechanics; May not go in with the next version of RifE, but will after that):

1. Make Kahd 'governor' for the city
   • He becomes a vassal, and his city gains a stronger version of the Gate, and gets a bunch of summons from it.
2. Allow Kahd to declare independence peacefully.
   • He still gains the strong version of the gate, but is not a vassal and can use it against you eventually. You gain a (weak) version of the gate in all cities. (Or possibly just the capital?)
3. Squash him.
   • Two possible outcomes here:
     1. You kill him.
     2. Your assassination attempt fails, he takes the city and spawns with several of his summons and the Gate.
4. Make him the leader of the armies!
   • Gain Kahd as a Field Marshal.
     • This will be the only option which preserves the 'Redemption' worldspells, not sure on exactly how yet (spell or Trait)

 

[Ahwaric]

What is the story on the Ngolome and the Jotun? At one time they were contenders for addition.

Ngomele will perhaps one day be included in Orbis. But as I do not want to change Opera's work too much and I would have to feel they fit rest of Orbis (regarding balance & ease of use), not for now.
Jotnar - nice, but not now.

Not to sound (AGAIN) like a broken record, but is 0.30 going to have a way for barbarian cities to evolve into Civs?

No.

For now, 0.30 will have following major features:

• 2 new civs
• reworked OO (from now on - Old Ones)
• enhanced Sidar, Tlacatl, Machanos, Grigori and perhaps some other civs
• new climate model from flavourmod
• changed mercenary system
• reviewed ranged combat (the last two are there to fix OOS)
• One or two more things, but not sure now these will make it, so not going to tell anyone

I think it is quite much

 

[Valkrionn]

Ngomele will perhaps one day be included in Orbis. But as I do not want to change Opera's work too much and I would have to feel they fit rest of Orbis (regarding balance & ease of use), not for now.
Jotnar - nice, but not now.

No.

For now, 0.30 will have following major features:

• 2 new civs
• reworked OO (from now on - Old Ones)
• enhanced Sidar, Tlacatl, Machanos, Grigori and perhaps some other civs
• new climate model from flavourmod
• changed mercenary system
• reviewed ranged combat (the last two are there to fix OOS)
• One or two more things, but not sure now these will make it, so not going to tell anyone

I think it is quite much

Especially for a one-person team; You've been working hard.

 

[arkham4269]

No

Okay, how about, is this ever a possibility so I can stop asking about it.

For now, 0.30 will have following major features:

• 2 new civs
• reworked OO (from now on - Old Ones)
• enhanced Sidar, Tlacatl, Machanos, Grigori and perhaps some other civs
• new climate model from flavourmod
• changed mercenary system
• reviewed ranged combat (the last two are there to fix OOS)
• One or two more things, but not sure now these will make it, so not going to tell anyone

I think it is quite much

Just a reminder, if possible, try to test you self-installer with Steam. A lot of us couldn't load LoR or Dune Wars. I still haven't gotten around to finding out if they fixed the problem as I've been playing Orbis instead. (All though I may have to fall off the wagon for a bit since version 13 of Planetfall now has the AC:AC factions!)

 

[arkham4269]

Basically, it will be an Amurite only event - Kahd is an ex-Amurite. I like the flavor of the civ, I just didn't like the mechanic and don't think there's much hope of fixing it without it becoming too much like the Amurites or Sheaim.

Well If Ahwaric picks this up, I would suggest that this even be allowed for any Civ w/the Arcane trait. Sure Kahd is an Amurite, but if I remember right, he fled so it seems to me he would seek out a Civ that favors the arcane.

 

[Kalina]

I not yet have heroes for the new civs (not even ideas), so please post some more on Sanari

Sanari Shu Lien (in attached picture ;>) is my girlfriend's longtime character - Shugenja from eastern-flavored lands. She is specialized in Air spells and is quite powerful in our setting. Now in her mid 30s, she is last one from family (family was slaughter by rivals and Sanari, 19 years old then, lived only because she was traveling abroad with her teacher at this time) Unable to return home she settled in setting's greatest city and become part of strange adventuring group that was trying to hunt down powerful spirit who possessed friend of party's leader. Eventually, they killed him after chasing him through half of the world (and having some great adventures as they did) but only she and dwarven artificer survived final battle. They trapped evil spirit in gem and dwarf made gem part of staff. They also decided that Sanari should return to her lands (she was now powerful and respected enough to not be afraid of her rivals) and guard spirit in gem.
In FFH mechanic, Sanari would be tier 3 spellcaster (or tier 2 gaining level 3 spells later like Alcinus - it would make her more useful but also more powerful) gained at same tech as nonhero spellcasters, possibly with lower strength and starting with Air spells already selected. She would also start with unique piece of equipment - a staff with trapped demon. This thing would work as spellstaff but with one change: no limit of times it can be activated each turn, but each activation have 20% cumulative change that demon breaks free (so up to 5 times in single turn, if you're very lucky). In this case, Sanari loses her staff and powerful demon is spawned at nearest free tile.
In case you like, I'm willing to write her flavor and strategy pedia entries, if someone is willing to correct my grammar mistakes

 

[Tarquelne]

Re: Scion spawning... too much python...

I'd love to see that function written by someone who actually knows how to write code rather than a script-kiddie.

Shugenja ... Air spells

Shugenja who does Air. From the pic. I see she's wearing red and has a mask.

You may not know this, but she's probably Scorpion and you shouldn't trust anything she says.

Just a friendly warning.

 

[Ahwaric]

Re: Scion spawning... too much python...

I'd love to see that function written by someone who actually knows how to write code rather than a script-kiddie.

Do not look at me - I am learning by trial and error and "improving" your code is not a thing I dared to do.
Scions are amazing as they are, a work of art
I just hope the code can be improved one day...

Shugenja who does Air. From the pic. I see she's wearing red and has a mask.
You may not know this, but she's probably Scorpion and you shouldn't trust anything she says.
Just a friendly warning.

Ouch... Does she read these forums? I mean, your girlfriend?

Kalina, are you ok with me using her (I mean the character) as a hero? I am not sure yet, but it might be good to give Dao shugenja hero. BTW shugenja ended as a druid replacement, an upgrade of elementalist or warrior monk (alternate to conjurer/sohei).

 

[Kalina]

Shugenja who does Air. From the pic. I see she's wearing red and has a mask.

You may not know this, but she's probably Scorpion and you shouldn't trust anything she says.

Just a friendly warning.

In fact, Sanari is from Phoenix family. We took some stuff from L5K and Oriental Adventures but neither of us had much knowledge about this, so it may not fit properly. She's Eberron character, not L5K and is Lawful Good... but she might be very, very cunning Scorpion character and I just don't know about it ;P

Ouch... Does she read these forums? I mean, your girlfriend?

Kalina, are you ok with me using her (I mean the character) as a hero? I am not sure yet, but it might be good to give Dao shugenja hero. BTW shugenja ended as a druid replacement, an upgrade of elementalist or warrior monk (alternate to conjurer/sohei).

Above my shoulder, usually Also, we play Orbis MP from time to time
Sure, feel free, we would appreciate it acually

 

[Tarquelne]

I just hope the code can be improved one day...

Lets make Valk. do it!

Though I do have one idea for an improvement of sorts: Have it run only every 10 turns or so while also increasing the odds accordingly. Wouldn't really fix any problems, but they'd come up less frequently and it'd run faster overall.

Phoenix family. ... so it may not fit properly.

Well, Phoenix are often Shugenja, and often wear red, too. And some of them will of course be Air specialists. The only Scorpion-ish thing left is the mask... but it's an atypical mask for a Scorpion.

So she's got very good support for her claim to be Phoenix.

Well played, Sanari. Well played.

 

[Valkrionn]

Lets make Valk. do it!

Though I do have one idea for an improvement of sorts: Have it run only every 10 turns or so while also increasing the odds accordingly. Wouldn't really fix any problems, but they'd come up less frequently and it'd run faster overall.

Why me?

Really though, I intend to try it after I get the system in the DLL working, but I don't think Ahwaric would use it; Mainly because I will keep it random, and to hell with people asking for a counter-based system.

 

[Ahwaric]

Why me?

Because you just got elected and I have no idea where to start...

Really though, I intend to try it after I get the system in the DLL working, but I don't think Ahwaric would use it; Mainly because I will keep it random, and to hell with people asking for a counter-based system.

I have no issueas it being random - I think I prefer it. Just do not like the curreent python-heavy code.
I think dao & grigori should get counter-based (and dll based) one though.

 

[Valkrionn]

Because you just got elected and I have no idea where to start...

That is completely unreasonable. Unreasonable I say!

I have no issueas it being random - I think I prefer it. Just do not like the curreent python-heavy code.
I think dao & grigori should get counter-based (and dll based) one though.

I'm going to attempt to have the DLL system accomodate both counter and random systems; Will use some of the same tags for both.

 

[Apeiron]

I have an idea of civilization trait for Doviellos (and for Malakims and Hippus maybe ?) : nomadism.
This trait allows to dismantle a city with a population of n citizens to gain a settler with a promotion "citizen n", which can build a new city with a starting population of n.
Obviously, the buildings are destroyed. A wonder in the city prevents the demolition ?