[BNW] Enjoyable Deity Games

[Nizef]

Here is a recap of the games in the Enjoyable Deity Games Experience (EDGE) series so far in 2020, (games from last year are listed on page 9 of this thread):
42. the Mayans 2 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), Piety challenge
43. Siam (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), Patronage partial challenge
44. the Shoshone 2 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
45. Poland 2 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), Honor challenge
46. the Netherlands (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), Liberty challenge
47. the Aztecs 3 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
48. the Celts (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
49. the Zulus (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), Aesthetics challenge
50. Austria (Pangaea, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
51. Persia (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
52. the Ottomans (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), Religion challenge
53. Rome (Fractal, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
54. Songhai (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
55. the Incas (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
56. Russia 2 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
57. India 2 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), CV challenge
58. Germany 3 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
59. Byzantium 2 (Fractal, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), Religion challenge
60. the Iroquois (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), Aesthetics challenge
61. America 2 (Pangaea, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded), DomV challenge
62. Sweden 2 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), Petra challenge
63. Morocco 2 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), partial Commerce challenge
64. England 3 (Fractal, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), partial UN challenge
65. Portugal 2 (Continents, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), partial elimination challenge
66. Egypt 2 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
67. Polynesia 3 (Archipelago, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
68. Sweden 3 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
69. Germany 4 (Pangaea, Epic speed, Large size, Unmodded), War academy, part 1, DomV challenge
70. the Huns 2 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), War academy, part 2
71. Spain 3 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Huge size, Unmodded)
72. Denmark 2 (Lakes, Standard speed, Standard size, Otherwise unmodded but Rotate Starting Position was used)
73. Venice 2 (Fractal, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), DipV challenge
74. Carthage 3 (Hellblazer´s Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with Hellblazer´s map script), CV challenge
75. China 2 (Pangaea, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded), War academy, part 3, DomV challenge
76. Mongolia 2 (Pangaea, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded), War academy, part 4
77. Brazil 2 (Pangaea, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
78. the Shoshone 3 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
79. Assyria 2 (Terra Incognita, Standard speed, Standard size, Otherwise unmodded but Rotate Starting Position was used)
80. Indonesia 2 (Small Continents, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), No Liberty challenge
81. Portugal 3 (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
82. Japan 2 (Ice Age, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded), No Order challenge
83. Persia 2 (Random map, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)

I played both Edge 65 Portugal and Edge 78 Shoshone. Two games that couldn't be more different but both fun in their own way.

Nice write up and pictures. Your EDGE#65 followed roughly the same pattern as my try. I think you were unlucky with EDGE#78. I settled the desert peninsula for more space and there were also some unique luxuries. However your game seems to have been a good one anyway! Thanks for trying them!

 

[Tiberiu]

Hey Raider! I'm glad you tried the Portugal game that I shared, and I'm sorry to see that your civilizations didn't stand the test of time this time, but thankfully I bet they were entertaining games and you will surely come stronger next time.

Spoiler :

I would like to ask something if you don't mind, for example, what do you mean when you say the game was long lost when you DOWed Shaka? You felt overwhelmed by the neighbours, or was somebody on the other islands too far advanced? If so who was the one? I want to see if it was the same runaway that I had.
Also, in first screenshot I see a great general, I assume you wanted to keep it instead of using him for defense? I mean, putting a citadel right near Orleans (to the left hex) with a fortified pikeman should have allowed you to keep the city, right? Finally I would like to know what did you do with the El Dorado money? Capital looks a bit low in population for T161. If you allow a suggestion, I think even a crappy coastal city is very useful in such a situation like this map has, in order to keep sending sea food routes to the capital.
Thanks for the write up.

 

[raider980]

Thanks Tiberiu, here's my answers to your questions.

Spoiler :

I would like to ask something if you don't mind, for example, what do you mean when you say the game was long lost when you DOWed Shaka? You felt overwhelmed by the neighbours, or was somebody on the other islands too far advanced? If so who was the one? I want to see if it was the same runaway that I had.
Also, in first screenshot I see a great general, I assume you wanted to keep it instead of using him for defense? I mean, putting a citadel right near Orleans (to the left hex) with a fortified pikeman should have allowed you to keep the city, right? Finally I would like to know what did you do with the El Dorado money? Capital looks a bit low in population for T161. If you allow a suggestion, I think even a crappy coastal city is very useful in such a situation like this map has, in order to keep sending sea food routes to the capital.

When I DoWed Shaka I was way way behind in science (and everything else). And I would have had to catch up with only two cities. Both The Zulu and The Iroquois were top dogs on my continent with many cities. The Iroquois were spamming cities left and right like always (why does the AI play Hiawatha so well? When he's in the game, he's always one of the best civs). I hadn't even met anyone from the other continent. I think The Iroquois would have won the game at the end. Plus, I've only ever won two Deity games. I'm really an Immortal player, the only time I play Deity is in these shared games because I like comparing the games to what others do, I especially like comparing the maps.

I don't think a citadel next to Orleans would have helped. Shaka had too many Impi, and he also had Xbows that aren't in the screenshot. The only troops I had were two Pikes and two Xbows (and one of the Pikes would die the turn after the screenshot). I don't remember what I did with the ED money - probably nothing lol. Yes, I do need to use food routes more. I don't really use them - I always feel like I need money early in the game.

Speaking of comparing maps, I see you started the Shoshone game. I'd be interested in seeing what happens in your game, especially the map. I like to compare the layout of the cities that people build. I have a screenshot from T81 of my game and compared it to your T80. In that game I got 4 cities up fast but they are very small. You can see that my capital is only Pop 4, I do tend to have smaller cities than most players - due to not running those food routes I'm sure, I will try that in my next game.

Spoiler Shoshone T81 :

 

[mbbcam]

I'm not much of a player, so I probably ought not to voice an opinion of the Shoshone map, but I would not settle cities strung out in a line like that. I tend to like a triangle so that they are in supporting range of each other for defence. It makes for shorter roads, too. You must have settled your fourth city quite late, as it is still building a monument. Maybe it is just my way, but I like to have three cities settled by T50 if I can, and I don't often build more. You only seem to have two workers, and there are lots of unimproved tiles. Four cities probably needs five workers at least. Without farms you are not going to grow. But I'm sure others will have more valuable observations.

 

[Nizef]

EDGE#84: Celebrations for the 43rd time
This is a game I played back in April, but I saved it for this very moment! The reason is found in @Ozbenno´s recent Hall of Fame update. I have officially achieved at least one Deity victory on Standard sized maps with each and every one of the 43 civs while also using Hall of Fame rules. Don´t think for a minute that I believe too much of myself as a Civ5 player, this is mostly a question of persistence. However, I guess at least it is some kind of milestone. The game I offer to you now, was the last civ I needed a win with to complete the task.

Here you play as the Netherlands on an unmodded Pangaea map with Standard size and Standard speed. QC and QM are turned on and all VCs are enabled as usual. The starting position is not very appealing, but it will be better when you scout around. Btw. why does William have a grassland starting bias? Would it not be more appropriate that he would have a coastal bias? As a comparison I played a peaceful game with five self founded cities, so there is space to settle. There are also suitable victims for offensive warfare thrusts. Go in any direction you want and make WIlliam proud. Enjoy!

I played according to HOF rules and submitted my win. There is a short recap behind the spoiler.

Spoiler :

I settle on t2 on the Silver hill next to the mountain range. It was a bad location but I wanted the initial production. As a strike of good luck this meant that I had Lake Victoria in range of the capital. Then Scoutx2-Shrine-Granary-Settler-Archer-Settler. Rotterdam founded coastal to the S on t37 and Utrecht on the other side of the mountain range on t47. 3 city NC on t90 and I built the Oracle on t80 before that. I added one more city afterwards on t127. Breda was founded very late. I started it on t235 for the oil. Rotterdam was my biggest city in the game (pop29 at the end without any food caravans or ships). That is no wonder since it had six(!) tiles for Polders in range.

In the midgame I built Sistine on t139 and Uffizi on t160. At the end of the game I had the highest Tourism output, but I was very unlucky with the Antiquity sites and had to search for other options. Order was the Ideology of the day, even if Assyria went Authocracy and China took Freedom. However, the rest of us went down the Order route. There were wars left and right and England got eliminated. However, my friend Enrico and myself tried to stay out of it all.

In the endgame it was just easier and faster to go for a SV. I achieved it on t304, so it was definitely not one of my best performances, but it was more than good enough. My cities were pop28-29-18-16-12.

 

[raider980]

I'm not much of a player, so I probably ought not to voice an opinion of the Shoshone map, but I would not settle cities strung out in a line like that. I tend to like a triangle so that they are in supporting range of each other for defence. It makes for shorter roads, too. You must have settled your fourth city quite late, as it is still building a monument. Maybe it is just my way, but I like to have three cities settled by T50 if I can, and I don't often build more. You only seem to have two workers, and there are lots of unimproved tiles. Four cities probably needs five workers at least. Without farms you are not going to grow. But I'm sure others will have more valuable observations.

I never really thought about settling cities in a pattern for defense. I always settle cities based on luxuries. Happiness is so punishing in Civ 5 that I don't settle unless there's a luxury or two - usually uniques. So when I saw all that salt way down south, I had to settle there. And that left no choice but to backfill with other cities between there and my capital, creating the line. Hahaha, I just noticed in the Persian GotM game I also have my cities in a line.

And three cities by T50? That almost never happens for me. I thought I was settling fast, not late in this game. As far as workers, yes, I always struggle with workers. I usually end up hard building them because I'm not able to steal very many if any at all.

I'm definitely not an optimal player - I don't bother trying to optimize my moves, build order, etc. Probably part of why I'm not a good Deity player. At lower levels you can get away with being non-optimal but usually not at Deity. That's why I prefer Immortal - or Deity Lite like in the CDG's.

 

[ForkOfSpite]

Finally finished this one - was distracted for ages replaying the first 50 turns or so to get two easy quests plus rescuing a worker (all for the same CS).

EDGE#45: In the footsteps of King Jan III Sobieski, Honor Challenge
Jan Sobieski was the king of Poland in 1683 at the time of the ottoman siege of Vienna. On September 12th a joint polish-prussian force came to the rescue with 60.000 troops and the siege was over before sunset. That was my thinking behind an honor challenge with Poland. The self-imposed rule is that the honor tree has to be completed with the 12th policy at the latest. The map is an unmodded Pangaea map with Standard size and speed. QC and QM are turned on and all VCs are enabled as usual. The starting location is good and scouting around will mostly please you for sure.

Turn 228 DomV:

Spoiler :

This map looked pretty easy for HCA domination, so I kept re-playing it until I got it right. I was able to get crossbows in good time, but I was only able to take expansions - in particular, Thebes became too strong too quickly. On the successful run, I used the CS to the north to train the first and second army. I even tried to train a couple of trebs for the second army, but not much success there.

First Army
Quickly took Heliopolis which was forward settled to the jungle spices. Went around one of Sweden's expansions (Helsinki) to take Thebes. Declared on Sweden and help a CS take/raze Helsinki. After taking Sigtuna and Stockholm, a couple cannon reinforcements joined the army and headed East towards the Celts. The approach was narrow and rough, so I was planning to just kill some troops while waiting for dynamite; instead, Boudicca gave me Cardiff in a quick peace deal.

Second Army
The second army easily took Venice which completely eliminated Enrico. Went to my Eastern borders to protect against France. Napoleon and Genghis DOW'ed me, but it was too late - on my turn, oxford finished so I picked up dynamite and upgraded. A few reinforcements from the southern army made their way north (liberating a CS along the way) to help take out Paris.

After bulbing my way to industrialization, I built two factories and bought one. Three great writers were worth about 2,000 culture each (world fair), so I started with five autocracy policies. Reached the modern era (railroad) on turn 199 to get Clausewitz's Legacy and it was over. The Northern army took Mongolia; the Southern army took the Celts. I waited a long time before restarting the war against the Celts - due to the delay, the two armies reached Polynesia at the same time. The AIs never got to flight or dynamite.

Social Policies
Tradition opener
full Honor
full Commerce
Rationalism 4 (opener plus four policies - is that "Rat 4" or "Rat 5"?)
Autocracy 10

 

[Nizef]

Turn 228 DomV

Rationalism 4 (opener plus four policies - is that "Rat 4" or "Rat 5"?)

Looks like you had a lot of fun. I have started to save GWs for later myself, but here you had a specific task for them. Nicely planned!

When describing number of policies, according to my logic, this would be Rat 5 based on the fact that one more policy would be described as "full". However, those who stick to the default in-program logic (of not mentioning the opener) are definitely forgiven.

 

[mbbcam]

@raider980 Out of curiosity I played 42 turns to see what I could do. By that time I had three workers I had stolen, the first settler was out, and the next was about ten turns away, so a couple of turns late on my usual schedule. There are a couple of luxes to the north west and east where one could settle, but I don't much like the options. If I had rolled this map myself I would have junked it at this point because I don't like the layout and shape of the land. I usually dislike maps with snaky outlines. I prefer something a bit more regular.

One of the problems with settling a long way from the capital is that it takes a long time for the settler to get there. It must have taken about eight turns to get to the salt and settle it, and that is eight turns delay in being able to build in the city. Also, it takes time to march a worker down there. That means it takes time before you can build mines for the salt. So you are not getting the benefit from it for a long time. And if someone decides to attack you on T90 you are going to be wiped out pretty quickly.

I'm not a successful Deity player, but I find that the step down to Immortal is too big. You can almost do anything you want and still win. So despite the frustrations I continue to plug away at Deity. Part of the secret seems to be to do things quickly. The sooner you can reach critical techs and policies, the better it is.

 

[Nizef]

@raider980 If I had rolled this map myself I would have junked it at this point because I don't like the layout and shape of the land. I usually dislike maps with snaky outlines. I prefer something a bit more regular.

Interesting. If I want a predictable shape, I play an Oval map. But I like when the map offer surprises.

In the case of EDGE#78, I agree with you that raider´s stright line is bad for defensive purposes. However, in this particular case, the capital is the city that is in greatest danger, while the expands are partially defended by mountains. It also seems to be so that the Incas are the biggest threat, while any aggression by Portugal/Brazil can easily be defended. From a strategic viewpoint, I find it doubtful to settle so far to the S that you get all that Salt. I settled "a three city line" and got one tile of Salt in range in the 3rd ring. The reason being, exactly as you suggest, not to overstretch.

Another thought: SInce this is a game with the Shoshone, one should be able to start building settlers very early. Take two pop ruins and you are at pop4 on t10-15. I retried and got the capital to pop4 on t11. Even with Tradition, this could mean first settler on t21-22 and second on t31-32. BO: Pathfinder-start Granary-Settlerx2.

EDIT: I slightly modified the BO and came up with the following: Pathfinder-start Granary-Shrine-Settlerx2-finish Granary-Settler. I used Tradition which meant that my first Settler was ready on t26, the next on t36 and the last was ready on t50. I stole three workers, one from the Incas and two from Ormus. 10 turns after the worker steal, the Incas offered a DoF.

 

[Tiberiu]

Thanks for the answers, Raider.

Spoiler :

About Portugal game... indeed, it seems too hard to recover with only 2 cities if that was the case, even with industrial espionage I think. I was curious if Persia had become runaway in your game because in mine, it was a crazy runaway, he has very strong start position. I personally don't mind Zulu, I find he is predictable and the cheapest civ to manipulate (bribe), while Iroquois has poor flavour combinations - offense, victory competitiveness and meanness 3 and boldness 2 in particular. He gets strong if he is let to expand and play Sim City- his highest flavour 9, which combines well with spaceship - 8, as SV is the AI's main way to win regardless of flavours.

I like to compare things too, in order to try to find improvements in my game. But there are many styles of playing and winning so sometimes it's comparing oranges and apples. My point is that empires can look very different and still work, depending on other factors - what policies you take or what techs you go for, what religion you have, spy usage. I would agree with others that the cities especially Te-Moak look a bit over-extended and that there's a risk if both Inca and Portugal attack. If the diplomacy cards are played right you can get away with that. Usually If I take a high risk with a city early game, I try to have a great general soon ready as back-up for defense, which requires either Honor or farming XP, or declare war right away so that they send units gradually and not in a big-packed army.
Personally I try to have a compact empire, with cities closer to each other. I think slight improvement would have been to place Goshute near the mountain for access to observatory since hill defense is less needed there, and put Agaidika either in position 1 for hill production+defense, or in 2 protected by river in order to make Agaidika + Te-Moak able to defend in a common fashion, and make enemies confused and split their force if they attack.
I've been busy with other things lately but I'll continue this game today and I can't wait to see how it ends up. I'll report at the end.

 

[beetle]

EDGe85 Denmark, Tiny Islands, younger, colder, Raging Barbarians, Large

AIs were hand picked, so all have a watery UA or UU. I used Rotate Start Position, picked the strongest spot, and played the map long enough to make sure things was developing to my satisfaction! All VC enabled, but Domination is strongly encouraged and quite feasible.

Spoiler starting screenshot :

 

[mbbcam]

Once more out of curiosity I played a bit further.

Spoiler Screenshot :

I went Honor, just because I often do, so the cities are not that big. I was able to steal four workers, three from Ormus, one from the Inca. I will be a bit late to National College, and will finish Honor a bit late, too. Plenty of money in the bank, though.

 

[raider980]

Interesting discussion on maps and city placement. The reason I built mine where I did was to maximize luxuries. I have Silver x3, Salt x4or5, Marble x2, Gold, and Cocoa x2. Both of your, mbbcam and Tiberiu, placements miss several luxuries or multiple copies of luxes. How do you maintain happiness? Do you build all happiness buildings right away? Even when I do that I still struggle with happiness.

Regarding the map itself, I loved it. I'm probably the opposite of you mbbcam, I don't really like regularity in maps. Pangea is my least favorite of the standard ones; my favorite is Fractal, I love those snakey shapes and several landmasses. Both my map preference and unhappiness aversion probably stem from the fact that I went right from Civ 2 to Civ 5. Fractal seems to give the most Civ 2 like landmasses. And in Civ 2 you had Elvis that you could sacrifice food or production for and make people happy, I wish that mechanic was in Civ 5.

Edit. Speaking of maps I like, I like island maps so I'm off to try the new Denmark game. I hope that's Salt in the starting screenshot and not Silver. I'll be settling in place. I'll be interesting to have to go for Optics fast.

 

[mbbcam]

There are two important sources of happiness that you haven't mentioned: city states and social policies. If you can befriend or ally city states (always a good thing anyway) you can gain happiness that way. And it has the benefit that if everyone hates you because of warmongering, and won't trade with you, the city states are still available. Which is one reason why it is a pain to have Austria, Venice, Greece or the Mongols in the game. As for social policies, Commerce has a particularly lovely dollop of happiness in it, but I think most of them will give you some. But as long as you are at zero happiness, you are OK. I find it is not TOO hard to manage until Ideologies come along, when it can be painful if you choose the wrong one.

I find that I have to be careful not to be seduced into settling in a certain spot just because of the luxes. I think you have to calculate whether you can grow a decent city there. I find it is an especially frustrating experience to settle where production is too low, because it can take an age to build anything. Settling is not just about luxes. There are various factors to consider. If I am going to go Honor, for example, good production is useful to have because I may need to spam units for all I am worth. On the other hand, Liberty will give me better production, while growth will be easier with Tradition. Many considerations interplay.

 

[Tiberiu]

Besides what mbbcam said I would add that the luxuries are not missed, they just come later and it's not mandatory for them to be even workable, with regard to happiness. Early game there's enough happiness in policies and CS but in the event more of it is needed, it only costs 9 to buy one from somebody, usually you can find more than one with all civs met. In the medieval with guilds, buying for 28 gpt is also quite cheap especially to trigger "we love the king" or fulfil CS quests. My main interest in settling is food+production potential, with resources as secondary consideration. Each of us has their own "agenda", hehe.

 

[mbbcam]

My main interest in settling is food+production potential, with resources as secondary consideration.

I'm sure that is right.

 

[Nizef]

My main interest in settling is food+production potential, with resources as secondary consideration.

For me it is situational. I value unique luxuries very highly and try to get them at least in the third ring if possible. Sometimes this leads to a trade off between luxuries and food+production. However there are other things to consider as well: how defendable the location is, coastal, rivers, is money or happiness an issue and occasionally the main objective might be just to get one city of my own between my capital and an aggressive AI (to fill out the land so to say).

 

[mbbcam]

For me it is situational. I value unique luxuries very highly and try to get them at least in the third ring if possible. Sometimes this leads to a trade off between luxuries and food+production. However there are other things to consider as well: how defendable the location is, coastal, rivers, is money or happiness an issue and occationally the main objective might be just to get one city of my own between my capital and an aggressive AI (to fill out the land so to say).

This seems right, as well! (Never been good at making up my mind!!)

 

[BlackWizard]

I have a pretty interesting map for this thread if you want it. You play as huns and you start with 10 faith, Petra, Hanging Gardens and Temple of Artemis. However enemies also have some minor bonuses like 4-6 settler and some of them have Mechanised infantry and Xcom on the beginning