Enormous choice of buildings and units

Monastery is fantastic for keeping up policy gain even when you have a sprawling empire. With two Monastery powerhouses you can get up to 10 cities on a Standard map and still have something like 1 policy every 13 or so turns.

Circus is vital for maintaining happiness as cities grow large. The only alternative is Theatres, which have lower return for cost.

When I say "good" I mean "good from a design perspective, because they make the game more interesting" rather than good in terms of "worth building".

I don't really see why Silk/Cotton/Dyes/Spices/Sugar should be without any unique bonuses.

Though, I guess they cluster a little more.
 
I'm not sure, either. Right now, Wine, Incense, and Marble are the jackpots of the luxuries. If you get a nice clump of 5 or 6 Wine locations in one city, you get heaps and heaps of culture. Easily capable of Culture win even with 13 cities, if you have two such sites.

I'm guessing that putting the same mechanic on the other items just makes the game too complicated.

Of the fifteen luxuries, only 5 don't have peripheral benefits. Both of the sea resources have Lighthouse and Seaport, both of which are fantastic if you are working three or more Sea resources.
 
Right now, Wine, Incense, and Marble are the jackpots of the luxuries.
And gold and silver. Mint benefit is huge, and they have great tile yields, and they only need Mining to access.

Having to get Calendar is a non-trivial weakness.

Incense is weaker since it often appears on desert tiles, so you don't want to work the tile.

I'm guessing that putting the same mechanic on the other items just makes the game too complicated.
I don't buy this, I don't think adding 1-2 more buildings would be that complex.

Add a weaver that gives +2 gold to cotton/dye/silk tiles.

And maybe have sugar/spices give an extra +1 gold tile yield on their own (without any building). Historically these were amazingly profitable.
 
I'm not sure, either. Right now, Wine, Incense, and Marble are the jackpots of the luxuries. If you get a nice clump of 5 or 6 Wine locations in one city, you get heaps and heaps of culture. Easily capable of Culture win even with 13 cities, if you have two such sites.

I'm guessing that putting the same mechanic on the other items just makes the game too complicated.

Of the fifteen luxuries, only 5 don't have peripheral benefits. Both of the sea resources have Lighthouse and Seaport, both of which are fantastic if you are working three or more Sea resources.

Does the monastery get additional culture for additional resources? I thought it only got +2 for access to incense, and +2 for access to wine. For a maximum of +7 if both incense and wine are present. It's not like the mint where additional resources give additional money.
 
SomethingWitty:

Hm. I never thought to check! It just seemed like the culture boundaries of the Monastery cities grew way larger with more resources, but that could just be me. Will check!
 
I always have the same problem as the OP, which is why I try to put a heavy emphasis on production and a low emphasis on science. Even so it's hard to get any use from most of the modern units or buildings. If you really want to use one of those, it's best to save up a lot of gold and buy it as soon as it becomes available.
 
dear OP:

nobody said you had to build them all. I LIKE the choice, even if I never ever build theatres.
 
pi-r8:

I never understood how that worked, actually. I mean, modern units are past Infantry and Artillery, right? Those units move over the map hella fast. You can get a Bomber from production to field use a continent over in two turns. You don't get that often from ancient era units if you have a large enough empire.

On a same-continent conflict on a Standard size, every modern unit should be in the thick of the fight in that amount of time, at worst.

The main limiting factor is production time, and as long as you can get that down to 5-7 turns, you should be getting use of the Modern Units before GDR rolls around - at least you would if you didn't have to deal with BoDs. That's a problem with BoDs, though.
 
Oh and then there are the endless other things - helicopters - which there is absolutely no question of ever getting round to build.

I would agree with you many things but Gunships is the only ground unit that can go over mountains. Plus it can hover right on top of a mountain.

So there is reason to build them.

Things that I never build are Walls, Barracks and Lighthouses since the cost to have them just is not worth it.
 
pi-r8:

I never understood how that worked, actually. I mean, modern units are past Infantry and Artillery, right? Those units move over the map hella fast. You can get a Bomber from production to field use a continent over in two turns. You don't get that often from ancient era units if you have a large enough empire.

On a same-continent conflict on a Standard size, every modern unit should be in the thick of the fight in that amount of time, at worst.

The main limiting factor is production time, and as long as you can get that down to 5-7 turns, you should be getting use of the Modern Units before GDR rolls around - at least you would if you didn't have to deal with BoDs. That's a problem with BoDs, though.

Like you said the main limit is the production time. 5-7 turns for a modern unit is extremely fast, actually. usually it's more like 10-20 from what I've seen. And it's only 2 techs from bombers to stealth bombers, so your bombers might be obsolete before they can even be built, unless you rush buy them. Ancient units stay current a lot longer.

And realistically, 1 bomber or 1 tank won't do much. They're just a supplement to your main force of infantry. Luckily you can upgrade those to mech infantry, which is a nice unit. But trying to build tanks or bombers is like building a wonder of the world.
 
imho there are too few buildings in this game. in Civ4 i used to make an emire (huge/marathon) where i had 20+cities with 6+ religions in every city - so you cant imagine i was jerk enough to create all these monasteries and pagodas.
p.s. i don't like moo3 if you now what i mean.
 
And it's only 2 techs from bombers to stealth bombers
This kind of thing is a big part of the problem, beelining military is way too easy. Its easier to keep pushing for Mech Inf than to get a Tank army. Pushing rifles is too close to musketmen.

Tying in more tech requirements would be a big part of fixing this problem, as would increasing the industrial/modern era tech costs (or just reducing pops by nerfing maritime city states).
 
Like you said the main limit is the production time. 5-7 turns for a modern unit is extremely fast, actually. usually it's more like 10-20 from what I've seen. And it's only 2 techs from bombers to stealth bombers, so your bombers might be obsolete before they can even be built, unless you rush buy them. Ancient units stay current a lot longer.

And realistically, 1 bomber or 1 tank won't do much. They're just a supplement to your main force of infantry. Luckily you can upgrade those to mech infantry, which is a nice unit. But trying to build tanks or bombers is like building a wonder of the world.

That goes more to show how ridiculously cheap World Wonders are in Civ V, not so much that the Modern units are disproportionately expensive.

Five to seven turns would be the normal turnover for a unit like the Paratrooper, which costs 350 hammers. Tanks cost more at 450, and Bombers more still at 520.

Base hammer expectations for a sizable production city in the Modern Era (about size 14 or so) in a suitable location should be about 34-40 hammers (I loaded up saves and counted from the tile yields), without policy adjustments. The production output is slightly higher if you can work SoL Engineers because those give +4 hammers per 2 food.

Windmill gives +15%. Factory gives +50%. Forge gives + 15%. Arsenal gives + 20%. If you went Plastics first into Modern for the Hydro Plant boost, then that's an additional +5 to 7 hammers for ideally situated sites, but we won't count it because it's harder to get those, and you usually have better things to do with riverside cities.

So. All factors considered, building a Tank in the Modern Age is a suitable Military City should base you 35 conservatively, +100% from modifiers for 70 hammers per turn (I have actually observed this), which means that you should be able to compete a Tank in 7 turns.

This is not extremely fast. A situationally better result can be had if you're Persian and in perpetual Golden Age, if you're Iroquoi and have Longhouses, or if you have so many riverside cities that you can afford to just throw one away as a production center for military units only - this site will grant you Hydro Plant for more powah.

I had this Arabia game where I had a city next to hills, a river, and a desert. I built a Hydro Plant, Solar Plant, and Nuclear Plant in it. Maintenance was killer, but it had phenomenal production.

Bombers are harder to build and my experience squares better with you in that regard. With the higher cost and without the benefit of either Forge or Arsenal, the bonus goes down to +65%, and that means that our 35 production only gets boosted up to 55-57 ish, making Bombers take about 9-10 turns to make. That squares with what I see.

Three bombers do a fair bit of damage, though. If you devote three of your cities to making Bombers, you could get a fair number up and running in about 10 turns. If you beelined Stealth, then you could upgrade them as soon as they come online, which is a benefit, but then you're stuck with Infantry and Artillery, which are an era behind.

Instead, you could tech Radar for Bombers, forgo Artillery mostly, and then you can tech Electronics and attack with Mech Inf with Bomber support, which is just fancy.

Attendant production bonuses are on alternate tech lines, so you have to choose whether to have a few high tech units, or more lower tech units.

Also, this scenario is dependent on actually having a production city capable of pulling 70 hammers a turn, just as I described. If you don't have such a city, then you will have problems making Tanks.
 
I think your example is a bit overoptimistic.

How are you getting 35 production base from a size 14 city?

Even if you're working only farms and mines, you need 7 farms to feed the population, and then 7 mines gives 21 production.

Even if you were working only farms and lumbermills, you'd still need 4-5 farms to feed the population.

And how did you manage to get to size 14 and yet still have 10+ production tiles (lots of culture needed), while also building all the production boosters and units along the way?

Also, adding all those buildings (forge, arsenal, windmill) is sucking up a an awful lot of gold for a city that isn't providing any.
 
Even if you're working only farms and mines, you need 7 farms to feed the population, and then 7 mines gives 21 production.

Even if you were working only farms and lumbermills, you'd still need 4-5 farms to feed the population.

Maritime city states?
 
I think your example is a bit overoptimistic.

How are you getting 35 production base from a size 14 city?

Even if you're working only farms and mines, you need 7 farms to feed the population, and then 7 mines gives 21 production.

Even if you were working only farms and lumbermills, you'd still need 4-5 farms to feed the population.

And how did you manage to get to size 14 and yet still have 10+ production tiles (lots of culture needed), while also building all the production boosters and units along the way?

Also, adding all those buildings (forge, arsenal, windmill) is sucking up a an awful lot of gold for a city that isn't providing any.

Not to mention all those production boasters are going to take centuries to build themselves. game timer runs out while your city is chasing more production boasters. the game really needs to increase production, reduce maintenance, and control unit counts via resources instead of gimping production.
 
Just to clarify my original post, of course I would definitely build a barracks in a high-production unit-building city, but what I meant was that there are several subsequent buildings such as the armoury and at least two others that I forget that I simply wouldn't bother to look at twice ... because as people here have said, it takes so long to build more advanced units as the game progresses, and the game frequently techs so fast, that there simply isn't time.

So my chief complaint isn't that there are too many choices, but that many of the choices really aren't feasible. I would love to get good use out of ALL the units in all the eras but from industrial onwards it's just an endless rush of change ... even more so than Civ4.
 
Ahriman:

After Steam Power, lumbermills give +3 hammers and +1 food. The best production cities after Steam Power are located on regions with lots of Forests, preferably sites with lots of river-side Forests. Those are the best.

Having a Granary in the city (a must for Production Cities!) feeds one pop. Having a Watermill feeds another. If you have four allied Maritime States, another +12 food. Center tile gives +4 (ideally Cow tile for more free food, but that's really rare!). Thus, you only need two Farms to feed a size 14 city at Stagnation.

Twelve times 3 is 36. The number can be higher if you have more Maritime Allies, if the city is your Capital, if you have Manufacturies, if you get more food from Cows on the center tile, if you're Iroquoi, or have lots of premium tiles (Iron gets +1 per tile, I believe Aluminum does as well).

On observation, having Plains does seem to boost production in other sites, though. I believe this is because after Fertilizer, you get +1 Production per tile, and the tile also gives +1 excess food, so you can work 4 Plains to get the same food excess for 2 Grassland Farms, and get +4 hammers for your trouble at the same time.

Lumbermills and Grasslands are still better, though.

As for gold cost, yes, the city is expensive to maintain. It still does actually produce net gold through Trade Route yield, but it requires maybe one or two Trade Cities to support its costs (haven't counted tile yields for this).

That said, the results speak for themselves. Pre-Industrial, you're going to have the Barracks and the Armory anyway, so it doesn't really cost a lot. In Renaissance when you get Windmills, +15% production on a 30 hammer city (still not size 14 by then), gets you +4 pure hammers for 2 gpt - it's like working a Manufactury instead of a trading post. It's when you get the Factory and the Military Academy that the costs really start ramping up, but I find the economy of large empire capable of supporting such a city while maintaining great income.
 
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