Epic Mod Ideas: Compilation of Suggestions

[Colonel Kraken]

Everyone has different ideas for what they like to see in their own personal modifications of the epic game. That's why epic mods don't get much attention in the Completed Mods forum ( with a few excpetions: DyP, Rye's, etc.).

However, since most everyone here is quite intelligent, enthusiastic, and quite experienced at modding Civ III, I would love to start to compile those modifications all of you have done to your personal mods that you deem indispensible to making Civ III playable. Also, please give the reason(s) why you think that particular addition is important and/or makes the game more fun.

I would like to put together everyone's wonderful ideas they have added to their games to make them that much better a playing experience. I'm not so much interested in ALL those hundreds of units, wonders, and buildings you've added. More so, I am interested in those settings, tweaks, and indispensible changes/additions (I just HAVE to have such and such a unit/tech/building wonder to fill a gap, etc.) you feel are necessary for the game. Give us some great tips of things you've found are so helpful. Perhaps, things that you've found make the AI more challenging.

It may be good also for some people to refute others' ideas, if you've simply found from experience that those changes don't really work out as intended. No arguments please, just gentle discussion.

Also, please let us know if there are modding ideas you know make the game freeze or you know have a really bad impact on the AI.

Another thing: If you know of some links to some really great discussion on modding, please provide those as well.


I'll try to keep un update in the first few posts that compliles people's ideas together. If it is successful, I will see about getting this thread stickied and/or transfered to the Tutorials section.

THANKS EVERYONE!

CK


Make sure to check out the MODDING LINKS below.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

If you look, for instance, at my mod [Rye's of Civilization], DyP and TET's (the 3 greatest epic mods) you'll notice huge differences between each one. The first thing you must do, then, is decide what the main purpose of your mod is. After that, put your efforts in that direction.

You should ask yourself a few questions, the answers to which will be your guidelines:

Do I want to add units? (Yes, as many as I can / Yes, when necessary / Yes, unique armies of flavour units (like Steph's)/ No)
Do I want a world map mod or a random map mod? (or both)
Do I want to alter the tech tree? (No / a Little / Heavily)
Do I want to make changes to enhance realism? (Yes / No, I don't care. I want cool additions.)
Do I want to add future eras? (Yes / No)
Do I want to keep an eye on loading times? (Yes / No, I've got a brand new PC)
Do I want to add any sort of graphics customization?
Do I want to add new civs?
Do I want to add obstacles / forbid actions? (Yes / No, I want freedom in player's and AI decisions, they'll pay for their mistakes)
--contributed by Rhye

You have to watch out what you change and what has to be left alone, many of the things in the epic game have been tested over the course of three editions of Civilization, and have been balanced very finely. Everything you add or modify needs to be tested, as some things work, while some things don't.

For example, adding stone as a resource is good, but make sure you don't restrict the building of harbours or temples, as harbours then cannot be built on any islands without stone. Also, the AI seldom builds roads outside its territory and without road links, the building of temples becomes impossible, thus stopping cities being linked by roads. After a while the AI will just have dozens of size three cities without any culture.--contributed by Smoking Mirror

If there is one theme I've seen over and over on these forums is that anything you do to change the game must consider the ramifications it has on the behavior of the AI. There are simply some things the AI will never do, or, not do well (e.g. land transports).--contributed by Colonel Kraken

When the mod is complete, make some tests and tune it.--contributed by Rhye

 

[Colonel Kraken]

HITPOINTS
Increase the HP... Otherwise, combat is like rolling dice... (The old Modern Armor vs. the Spearman bit is classic). Increasing the HP is a very good way to bring the combat back down to reality. Sometimes you'll get surprises, but more often than not, mathematics will be in your favor. The greater number of rounds of combat decrease the chances of abnormal combat outcomes.--contributed by Don Pedro II

I use HP to represent the size of a unit, and attack/defense to represent its efficiency. For instance, Frankish knights could be 10/6, 2 HP, and Saracen light cavalry 6/3, 4 HP. The Saracen have many more horsemen, but they are weaker.--contributed by Steph

DEFENSIVE TERRAIN BONUSES
I usually like to increase the defensive bonus of Rivers and some of the other defensive bonus items (e.g. Increase the value of Fortresses too, say, 75 instead of 25. It might even be a good idea to increase the value of fortifications as well.) in order to make more apparent differences in combat between different types of terrain. After the changes, it really means something if you can defend behind a river on a hill. --contributed by Colonel Kraken & Don Pedro II

DEFENSIVE BOMBARDMENT
If I give archer a defensive bombardment because they have a range attack, then I should give infantry a defensive bombardment. But then, what is the use of machine gun?

The idea here is to make the historical use of unit prevail, relatively to their era. So in ancient and medieval era, archers are used as support troops, not "attacker" (warrior are attacker). So I give defensive bombardment to archers. In the modern era, this support role is played by machine gun. They also get the defensive bombardment.

But infantry don't have it. Why? Because it's not their role! It may seem unfair has infantry will not have this while archer have it. But... the infantry has much better stats than the archer. The result is I don't look at the actual weapons and/or armor of a unit to decide which stats to use, but I look more into its role on the battlefield.--contributed by Steph

ROAD MOVEMENT
Idea 1
I set movement on roads to 2 which is much more realistic.--contributed by Weasel Op

Idea 2
One of the first things I did was increase road movement to 6. I've found that it makes it much more challenging to invade the AI. I've gotten many a sizeable invading force thoroughly trounced by swarms of AI units. --contributed by Colonel Kraken

MOVEMENT POINTS
The current "withdraw" model sucks, as the difference in speed is not used: units with 3 MP and units with 2 MP works the same. [One cannot withdraw from the other]. My conclusion was : this feature is useless. Therefore, I had no remorse in getting rid of it. How? all the units have a minimum of 2 MP.

The minimum cost of all terrain is 2MP.

Why? Now I can use the ignore terrain flag with a real effect. If you make Camel with a bonus in desert, but desert cost is one, you miss the point. But if desert cost 2...--contributed by Steph

Say you have a "Desert Warrior" with a move of one. It may seem pointless to give the "ignore movement cost" of desert (modded to cost 2 MP). But, if you make a "Desert Warrior" army it will have a move of two, and will ignore desert movement cost.--contributed by Mrtn

I have multiplied (x3) the MP of boats. But also make coast cost 3MP, sea 2 MP and ocean 1 MP. It prevents a very fast exploration of the coast, but make trans oceanic travel a lot faster.--contributed by Steph

POPULATION COST
I have really enjoyed the effects of having all units cost 1 population. Save for a few exceptions (Explorers? Naval Units, which the AI builds precious few of anyway. Maybe Air Units and/or Artillery Units.), having units cost a pop point may decrease the rate at which you may build units. I've found it can be a very handy tool to control city population. Another cool benefit is to be able to use this as one more way to make a Unique Unit that much more unique --not cost a population point. That can make for some interesting unique unit combos. Does it affect the AI? Whenever I've used it, I don't believe I've seen it be a problem for the AI. --contributed by Colonel Kraken

My attempts at giving units a population cost were disastrous! The AI ran itself into the ground... the population cost did not, in any way, affect the rate at which they built military units... they just continued to crank them out and so by the Industrial Era, I was ten technologies ahead of my nearest competitor and they had cities no larger than 9.--contributed by Don Pedro II

From the beginning of my modding attempts, units have cost populations. But not always 1.
Aircrafts, special forces,ships, knights will require only 1.
Warrior, archer, can cost 2.
Napoleonic infantry can cost 3. --contributed by Steph

 

[Colonel Kraken]

FOOD CONSUMPTION/FOOD BONUSES
Idea 1
Increased food consumption to 3 [per citizen], and [to compensate] added several bonus resources that add food. This makes city placement more important. --contributed by Weasel Op

Increasing food consumption can also really slow down Settler mania. You have to be careful with this one, however. As SM points out below, starting position can then become crucial. This may or may not be a problem.--contributed by Colonel Kraken

Idea 2
Reduce food bonus of bonus resources! As the game is presently set up the success of any civ is almost totaly reliant on where they possition their first city. The player can look around for a good site, but the AI almost always settles in the first turn. I personaly reduce the food bonus of all bonus resources to no more than one extra food. It's enough to make a difference but not enough to make that first city placement a game winner.--contributed by Smoking Mirror

 

[Colonel Kraken]

MOD MAKING CHECKLIST: TIPS & TRICKS

MODDING ARMIES

MINOR CIVS as RESOURCES

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Here are some things that I found here on CFC from quite a long time ago that I had saved for my own use. These are others' suggestions. I'm sorry I didn't save who made the suggestions.

WORKER JOBS
Railroads now become available with Industrialization
Irrigation now requires Pottery
Mining now requires Masonry

IMPROVEMENTS
Barracks now require Warrior Code
Temple and Cathedral now reduce corruption.

CITIZENS

Idea 1
Tax collectors - Give 3 gold, require Currency
Scientists - Give 3 science, require Invention

Idea 2
Tax collectors - renamed "Merchants" and produce 2 coins. Come with currency.
Scientists - produce 2 beakers. Come with education.

TERRAIN
Jungles also have Game and Incense
Plains also have Game
Flood Plains also have Game
Tundra turns into Grassland with global warming

WORLD SIZES

Idea 1
Tiny: Min distance = 14, optimum cities = 16, science = 80
Small: Min distance = 16, optimum cities = 20, science = 100
Standard: Min distance = 18, optimum cities = 24, science = 120
Large: Min distance = 20, optimum cities = 32, science = 160
Huge: Min distance = 24, optimum cities = 40, science = 200

Idea 2
(From / To)
Tiny: 12 / 16
Small: 14 / 19
Standard: 16 / 22
Large: 24 / 30
Huge: 32 / 40

TECH RATE

Idea 1
Minimal Tech time: 2 turns (If you do it high, you can only get tech by trading)
Max Tech time: 80 turns

Idea 2
What I am doing now is increasing the tech minimum to 8 and maximum to 80. It lets me play war with my early units.

DIFFERENT TYPES OF ARTILLERY
I would also mention someone elses idea in a mod. Infantry low defense high hps, tanks high defense low hps. This allows for two specific kinds of anti-unit artillery, which will be relatively ineffective against the wrong unit. Anti personnel with high rate of fire but low attack (kills infantry well and quickly, passable against tank) and anti-tank with low rate of fire but high attack (hits and kills tanks quickly, hits infantry easily but takes several turns to kill).

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Well... my mod has a lot of things, but one thing I consider completely necessary to play the epic game is to increase the HP... Otherwise, combat is like rolling dice... (The old Modern Armor vs. the Spearman bit is classic) Increasing the HP is a very good way to bring the combat back down to reality. So sometimes you'll get surprises, but more often than not, it's a question of mathematics.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Well... my mod has a lot of things, but one thing I consider completely necessary to play the epic game is to increase the HP... Otherwise, combat is like rolling dice... (The old Modern Armor vs. the Spearman bit is classic) Increasing the HP is a very good way to bring the combat back down to reality. So sometimes you'll get surprises, but more often than not, it's a question of mathematics.

Excellent, DP II, this is exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks!

 

[Rhye]

Here I am, responding to your request...

...but it's very hard to say.

if you look for instance at my mod, DyP and TET's (the 3 greatest epic mods) you'll notice huge differences between each other.
Where I forbid, they enable, where I reduce they increase, where they remove I add and where they add I remove.
Many people like hundreds of units added. Not me, but many people do.
Just an example: in every mod I've seen the OCN is raised. I'm the only one who reduced it to 10 or less. In the Random map version of my mod I've also reduced the min. distance.
But I did this for some reasons (I recalculated the ratio between civs and settleable tiles), as TET even recalculated unit movements for other reasons (the diameter of the Earth)

So what I want to say is: you first need to decide what's your main purpose. After that, put your efforts in that direction.

 

[Rhye]

And BTW, you can't guess the science ratio. It's the last thing to do: when the mod is complete you make some tests and tune it.

 

[WildWeazel]

Just some small tweaks:
I set movement on roads to 2 which is much more realistic, increased food consumption to 3, and added several bonus resources that add food (the last 2 make city placement more important) I also made most wonders, especially early ones, require resources. Examples:
Temple of Artemis: marble
Great Wall, Pyramids: stone
Colossus: copper
Pyramids: incense, silk
As you can see I also added some strategic resources. Another thing I did is give almost all resources a prereq, mostly in the ancient era, like Ceremonial Burial for incence, spices, and silk, Pottery for wines, etc

 

[IbnSina]

1. I'm one of the people who likes hundreds of units... I use them to introduce asymmetries between civs. For example, my Sioux civ has a succession of horse units with low attack, low defense, but a bombard ability, 3 movement, and for one of them, blitz attack. This falls into the category of properties that the AI doesn't always use well, though in spite of that, the Sioux are frequently very successful in the hands of the AI. For my part, I enjoy playing them for a change. There are other analogous modifications; my Maya civilization has no movement cost through jungle, my Incas have no cost through mountains, my Vikings have extra amphibious units, and so on.
2. I have introduced a new succession of "quasi-offensive" units: peltasts, available with warrior code, 2.1.1; crossbows, fuedalism, 2.3.1; and fusiliers, metallurgy, 4.5.1.
Fusiliers upgrade to infantry. My archers then change to "0 bombard" units: archers, 1(4).1.1; longbows, 2(6).3.1. Longbows upgrade to fusiliers. Finally, for the AI with no resources, I have skirmishers, iron working, 2.1.1; and irregulars, invention, 3.1.1. The last two use "all terrain as roads", and can make things exciting - they are sitting ducks for well-disciplined horse troops once their presence is known, but they can seem to come out of nowhere - out of jungle or mountains where they were not seen. I also have a succession of light cavalry units, but they are highly customized by civ.
3. I have increased movement on many sea units, and have changed most surface ships so that attack and defense ratings are the same. Thus, e.g. galleys still have only 3 movement, but galleons have 7. This makes wars across the sea more interesting.

Obviously, I have many other little changes to the tech tree, wonders, and so on, but these above seem to be the main ones. Not everyone would like them, but they have kept me playing civ long past the time when the untainted game(s) became excessively routine.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

I've completely started over making a mod of the epic game again.

One of the first things I did was increase road movement to 6. What?! you say. Well, I've found that it makes it much more challenging to invade the AI. I've gotten many a sizeable invading force thoroughly trounced by swarms of AI units.

I usually like to increase the defense of Rivers and some of the other defensive bonus items in order to make bigger differences in combat in different types of terrain. It really means something if you can defend behind a river on a hill.

I like to couple this with giving a lot later infantry type units (Rifleman, etc.) identical attack and defense ratings. If you're fighting in the open, you're almost evenly matched. However, defensive terrain now has a significant impact. Obviously, this doesn't work for all units, as many units are much better at attack or defense.

It does make for some interesting options, however. I can now have a Spearman have an attack of "2" so it can now beat a Warrior. Furthermore, it makes sense that a bunch of men with spears charging a bunch of men with spears have similar attack and defense attributes. However, don't try to take out a Spearman in a city and/or behind a river, because it's probably just not going to work out. Thus, the defense is still better than the offense.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Cuivienen]

I would like to just put out a few suggestions.


1. Give Guerillas hidden nationality. It would make the AI put them to much better use and is more realistic.

2. Change the American UU to the Minuteman, 4.6.2, replaces Rifleman. The F-15 is absolutely worthless for both human and AI and the Minuteman would give the American AI a decent shot at a Golden Age.

3. Stop Medieval Infantry upgrading to Guerillas. Instead, insert the Fusilier, 5.4.1, available with Military Tradition for the MDI to upgrade to and which upgrades to TOW Infantry. (Possibly insert another offensive infantry unit in the Industrial Ages.)

4. Replace the Zulu and Hittites with Songhai and Abyssinia. (Or anything else.)

5. Add the Stone strategic resource, available at Construction, and make it more common than Iron and Horses. Libraries, Courthouses, Colosseums, Cathedrals and Universities require Stone.

6. Decrease the upkeep of Colosseums to 1 and the shield cost to 110.

 

[mrtn]

I really like mountains to be impassable, makes for a more challenging game with passes through the mountains.
Worker jobs:
Move irrigation without water to Invention. This simulates the great inventions in the Middle Ages in agriculture (crop rotation, the horse harness, and so on), and also helps the AI to develop their lands.
Move Plant Forest later. Much later. Planting acres of forest haven't been invented yet, IMO.

Move Republic to the late middle ages. The Roman republic wasn't what we'd call a republic, rather a Oligarchy. Thus the first real republic was sometime in the MA's (Venice, or something like that).
Let Republic take Democracy's place in the MA's, and move Democracy to the industrial era.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I've completely started over making a mod of the epic game again.

One of the first things I did was increase road movement to 6. What?! you say. Well, I've found that it makes it much more challenging to invade the AI. I've gotten many a sizeable invading force thoroughly trounced by swarms of AI units.

I usually like to increase the defense of Rivers and some of the other defensive bonus items in order to make bigger differences in combat in different types of terrain. It really means something if you can defend behind a river on a hill.

I like to couple this with giving a lot later infantry type units (Rifleman, etc.) identical attack and defense ratings. If you're fighting in the open, you're almost evenly matched. However, defensive terrain now has a significant impact. Obviously, this doesn't work for all units, as many units are much better at attack or defense.

It does make for some interesting options, however. I can now have a Spearman have an attack of "2" so it can now beat a Warrior. Furthermore, it makes sense that a bunch of men with spears charging a bunch of men with spears have similar attack and defense attributes. However, don't try to take out a Spearman in a city and/or behind a river, because it's probably just not going to work out. Thus, the defense is still better than the offense.

Just some thoughts.

I don't really agree with the Spearman argument... the men standing with their spears and not running with them definitely have an advantage. But I suppose the terrain bonuses can be used to make the difference.

I like increasing the Defensive bonus of rivers. I've increased the value of Fortresses too... 75 instead of 25. It might even be a good idea to increase the value of fortifications as well.

Speaking of defense, I forgot to mention it before, but I also upped the chance of interception of an enemy air mission to 60%. I would even go higher than that... It doesn't mean the plane will be shot down since the interceptor could lose the fight as well. It increases the need for effective air superiority. I have a Bomber Squadron unit that I use that basically combines fighters and bombers and has a much higher defense rating than a regular Bomber...

 

[Pleb]

A small suggestion...

I can't remember which Civilization game it was, but in one of them aircraft can be moved. This is the only thing in Civilization III I wasn't pleased with.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

A small suggestion...

I can't remember which Civilization game it was, but in one of them aircraft can be moved. This is the only thing in Civilization III I wasn't pleased with.

Either of the first two...

 

[Smoking mirror]

You have to watch out what you change and what has to be left alone, many of the things in the epic game have been tested over the course of three editions of civilization, and have been balanced very finely.

Some of the things I personaly like to tweak;

#1 Era related HP bonus; In the first era units have minus 1 HP while all gunpowder units should have +1 HPs, this means that outdated units are less usefull, and die quickly as soon as there is a war, so that generaly, the AI will be more likely to have up to date units around. It also stops spearmen beating tanks, and represents the higher reliance in early history on luck and troop experience in combat rather than the modern reliance on tech advantage.

#2 Reduce food bonus of bonus resources! As the game is presently set up the success of any civ is almost totaly reliant on where they possition thier first city, the player can look around for a good site, but the AI almost always settles in the first turn. I personaly reduce the food bonus of all bonus resources to no more than one extra food. Enough to make a difference but not enough to make that first city placement a game winner.

#3 Add a pirate unit, available with currency, same stats as the galley but no transport. Give it no nationality and the ability to enslave to create more pirates.
This will give you and the AI the ability to control ship movements in your territory, but only with large investment in ship numbers, it also gives you something to do when you are not at war.

Everything you add, or modify needs to be tested, as some things work, while some things don't. For example, adding stone as a resource is good, but make sure you don't restrict the building of harbours or temples, as harbours then cannot be built on any islands without stone, and because the AI seldom builds roads outside its territory and without raod links, the building of temples becomes impossible, thus stopping cities being linked by roads. After a while the AI will just have dozens of size three cities without any culture.

 

[WildWeazel]

Pleb, are you saying you want planes to move around the map? It's not that hard to do, but very unrealistic IMO.

SM: I don't follow what you mean about the temples, but I agree that only certain buildings should require stone- I would limit it to wonders, colosseum, and maybe courthouse.

DPII: I like the higher HP idea, that should help the "R"NG I also give a few units low HP, like special forces (forces them to aviod open combat)