Epic Mod Ideas: Compilation of Suggestions

[aaglo]

Uh... I was wrong about the "ignore movement cost on terrain X", when it comes to worker speeds. So, ignore my comments on those specialized miners, farmers and lumberjacks. Damn!

But still, the movement cost of terrain still affects the worker speeds: so if you double the movement costs of all terrains (like Steph suggested), make sure that you double the worker speeds. (otherwise you'll be terraforming for a LONG! time. )

 

[sourboy]

Three months late, but better late than never. btw, Colonel - you working on an epic mod? I've been organizing one for about 2 months now. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts, or maybe helping you out. It's much more demanding than a scenario...

ROAD MOVEMENT
I set movement on roads to 2 which is much more realistic.--contributed by Weasel Op

I agree with this. Double the movement on roads still adds favorable value. It benefits more when thinking about scouts. Typically a scout is the master of terrain as well as having efficiency in travel (they know the area & the shortcuts). This means they should receive "treat all terrain as roads." Now, setting them to 1 movement, means 2 moves on roads, 2 moves off roads. Non-scout units (with 1 movement) then would be equally fast on roads, but struggle off roads, which is a fair assessment.

TECH RATE

Techs going too fast? Some techs being traded too quickly amongst the AI? Set them to non-tradable. Make all the Civs discover Nuclear Weapons, just make sure you're the first - but watch out, they can still steal the technology.

TERRAIN

Sure, there may be igloos in northern Canada, monk temples in Tibetan mountains and casinos in American deserts, but in 90% of the rest of the world those areas are bare (or at least there isn't 1 million population in a particular area). If they aren't - sure seems to be common ground for terrorists or other non-conformists. Try making tundra, desert, and mountains into colonies/outposts only - no settling. If you surround the area your culture will cover the lands, but if you don't - you'll have your own al queda network in your backyard - keeping you on your toes even late in the game.

RESOURCES
Discourage that starting human-controlled settler from wandering to find an ideal starting location (afterall, the AI doesn't). Make resources require something, cattle requires domestication, gems/gold require mining, game/furs require hunting, etc.

UNITS
Got a specialty unit (sniper, special forces, etc) that is too hardcore to just let the AI & humans freely build? Make it auto-produced from a small wonder - that way each Civ can only have one building pumping them out every 10, 15, maybe 20 turns. Exploit that!

 

[WildWeazel]

Glad to see this thread again
Good ideas sourboy, except that the AI still won't use any unit outside of its specified strategy, so its special units would be cannon fodder.

I like giving scouts radar also- it makes them better at exploration than a normal unit and gives them an evasion advantage- both realistic. I hate sending a scout all the way across a continent only to run right into a barb camp and get killed.

After studying, testing, discussing, and getting mad the AI over and over again, I think I've come up with the ultimate modding tip: FORGET THE AI AND MAKE A MP MOD!!!

 

[sourboy]

Well that's a matter of unit attributes - which is another issue. My suggestion was to base top notch units as auto-produced if they shouldn't be a standard widespread unit.

In my eyes, there should be a ground unit that is "nationless" like the Privateer - and what better then a modern "Special Forces" - which would not only be handled effectively by the AI, but would fit my auto-produced suggestion.

 

[Figaro]

The problem with a hidden nationality ground unit is that you or the enemy can take over cities without needing to declare war. The good thing about the Privateer is that on the ocean, nobody has any territory (well, not real territory) and of course the Privateer can't bombard, so you can get away with it. An ultimate fleet of Privateers still couldn't kill off even the weakest of players, wheras an army of Hidden Nationality units could, without them knowing what hit them. IMHO it is far better to give Guerillas etc. Invisibility. Think about it: in a Guerilla Warfare situation like say the Vietnam war, the Americans knew perfectly well who was attacking them: it was the Viet Cong. It wasn't their identity that was invisible, it was them themselves, by cunning use of traps and jungles etc. etc.

It seems silly to be allowed to kill enemy land units without consequences, wheras on the ocean, no-one can hear you scream... on the subject of Privateers, it's always a good idea to make your base Barbarian sea unit a Privateer-type galley or whatever. This makes it less obvious who owns the Pirate Galleys or whatever, as they genuinely do look like just random barbarians...

 

[sourboy]

The problem with a hidden nationality ground unit is that you or the enemy can take over cities without needing to declare war.
It seems silly to be allowed to kill enemy land units without consequences

First of all, one can disable the "capture" attribute so that a particular unit cannot conquer a city. Second, Privateers are open game - the AI constantly attacks them on sight. The same would be true if a clearly visable unit entered their lands, or were even near their troops currently in neutral or enemy lands. And as I stated initially, I suggest allowing these types of units only by auto-production, so as to not allow a player to exploit them and launch a full scale secret war - but rather only covert strikes.

Now placing a unit with hidden nationality & invisible - that would be foolish.

 

[WildWeazel]

I still think the AI would throw its spec ops one by one at the biggest, closest threat as soon as they were produced, most likely losing their new units. That's how the AI works. That's not how special forces work. You would have to give the unit stats comparable to other infantry, which would defeat the purpose.
I also think HN would be better for modern spec ops. Get in, do your job, get out, no witnesses sort of thing. Something obviously happened, but you don't who did it. Invisible would be nice but would overpower the unit unless the AI kept them around to detect others.

 

[Figaro]

Now placing a unit with hidden nationality & invisible - that would be foolish.

Whoever said to give them both? I didn't. My whole spiel was about why you SHOULDN'T give a guerilla or whatever hidden nationality, suggesting invisibility as an alternative. I'm hardly then going to say, "Give them Invisibility too!" am I? I was unaware you could remove the capture ability, was this do-able in the original or just Conquests?

Anyway, this is just my opinion, I agree that the AI can't handle them (it can barely handle Privateers, the way it does stupid things guard transports with them or move them into its cities in plain view. But if you want to include them, that's fine. I always thought the affects of Special Ops etc. were too localized to be represented on a Civ3 scale, or rather, that's what espionage was for.

 

[WildWeazel]

When I get some time I'll do some testing with a spec ops unit and see what works best. I've always wanted to implement one but I never figured out how to get the AI to use them right.

 

[Ozymandias]

When I get some time I'll do some testing with a spec ops unit and see what works best. I've always wanted to implement one but I never figured out how to get the AI to use them right.

Hmmm ... Special Ops do much more than black ops assaults -- recon especially comes to mind, with the ability to call in heavy firepower in a pinch. It's not ideal but maybe try flagging them "Explore" with a decent defensive bombardment strength?

Just Musing,

Oz

 

[El Justo]

Hmmm ... Special Ops do much more than black ops assaults -- recon especially comes to mind, with the ability to call in heavy firepower in a pinch. It's not ideal but maybe try flagging them "Explore" with a decent defensive bombardment strength?

Just Musing,

Oz

hmm...let's see

i have a Special Ops line of foot units in my TCW scenario and they work as follows:

- 1 extra mvmt pt
- -2 HP
- air drop ability
- see invisible (only the spy units are invisible on the ground)

obvisously, not all civs would be able to have them. IIRC, USA (US Ranger), UK (Royal Marine Commando), USSR (Spetsnaz), Israel (S-13) and Australia (Australian Commando) are the only ones.

they're all autoproduced and unbuildable and are also free of upkeep costs.

and yes, they do have the 'explore' flag.

 

[WildWeazel]

I was thinking something like this:
-2 HP
low A/D
strong bombard, low ROF, range 1 (defense and sabotage)
Invisible and/or HN (both shouldn't be too overpowering if they can detect each other, and maybe a few other units can too- marines, airborne infantry, etc)
Radar
depending on game settings, either 2 MP and ignore most terrain cost or 1 MP and treat all as roads if you use 1/2 roads
Airdrop, longish range
no capture ability
and maybe carry 1 tactical missile? (combined with bomb unit- I know the AI won't use this but it would be fun)

So, they would quickly die in normal combat but they can get deep into enemy territory to do sabotag/pillage and recon work. Radar also helps with evasion, to avoid an enemy unit accidentally stumbling upon them and killing them. Also HN to prevent all-out war. I think this should work if they are limited by auto-production.

 

[Ozymandias]

Just remember the AI "cheats" and IIRC goes after HN units with a vengeance.

-Oz

 

[El Justo]

I was thinking something like this:
-2 HP
low A/D
strong bombard, low ROF, range 1 (defense and sabotage)
Invisible and/or HN (both shouldn't be too overpowering if they can detect each other, and maybe a few other units can too- marines, airborne infantry, etc)
Radar
depending on game settings, either 2 MP and ignore most terrain cost or 1 MP and treat all as roads if you use 1/2 roads
Airdrop, longish range
no capture ability
and maybe carry 1 tactical missile? (combined with bomb unit- I know the AI won't use this but it would be fun)

So, they would quickly die in normal combat but they can get deep into enemy territory to do sabotag/pillage and recon work. Radar also helps with evasion, to avoid an enemy unit accidentally stumbling upon them and killing them. Also HN to prevent all-out war. I think this should work if they are limited by auto-production.

yeah, that's about right.

i gave them 3A/3D (very, very low compared to other foot units) b/c they're clandestine operatives and do not have nearly the number of troops as say an infantry division may have.

their airdrop range is 7 compared to the standard 4 & 5 for the Airborne Inf units.

i did not flag them as HN & pillage for one purpose: i gave these flags to the 'Spy' units.

 

[El Justo]

Just remember the AI "cheats" and IIRC goes after HN units with a vengeance.

-Oz

yes...very true.

i've tried to find a way around this in TCW and i think i've got it.

Worker & Civil Engineer units are usually the ones who 'stumble' across our HN units and tell their boys...

well, i made the Worker and CIvil Engineer units autoproduced every 10 turns in order to sort of control or regulate their appearance. it's worked pretty well thus far.

also, i made it so that the HN 'Spy' units (CIA Op, Mossad Op, KGB Op, MI6 Op and a default Spy for the others) can capture enemy Workers and Civil Engineers and war is not declared. it's fun to do, too. i have Miami filled w/ captured Cuban workers

 

[WildWeazel]

Just remember the AI "cheats" and IIRC goes after HN units with a vengeance.

-Oz

Forgot to mention, that's the other reason to give them Invisible.
Also I would give them Stealth Attack vs most land units, and Precision Bombing (advanced units anyway). All these extra abilities could come one or two at a time in a short unit line.

 

[Figaro]

I thought making a unit hidden nationality and invisible was foolish?

Now placing a unit with hidden nationality & invisible - that would be foolish.

 

[El Justo]

I thought making a unit hidden nationality and invisible was foolish?

absolutely not!

it just depends on the circumstances...by this imean that in an epic-type game, a unit w/ HN and the invisible flag is or can be a game-breaker; especially if it has decent A/D values.

however, i've used this combo for my Spy units in TCW (The Cold War Deluxe) and it works fantastic. spy units have 1A/1D and 2 mvmt + ATR so that they can scoot away from trouble and not be caught as easily.

 

[WildWeazel]

I haven't gotten around to testing the spec ops yet, but here is an AI-free recipe for land mines:
low cost, 0/0/1 ADM, X/0/X bombard, 2-3 op range, HN, invis, Immobile, cruise missile, lethal (?), uncheck all abilities except bombard and airdrop.
Unfortunately, stationary naval mines are impossible- can't airdrop into water.

@justo: ATR?

 

[El Justo]

I haven't gotten around to testing the spec ops yet, but here is an AI-free recipe for land mines:

low cost, 0/0/1 ADM, X/0/X bombard, 2-3 op range, HN, invis, Immobile, cruise missile, lethal (?), uncheck all abilities except bombard and airdrop.
Unfortunately, stationary naval mines are impossible- can't airdrop into water.

@justo: ATR?

hmmm....funny that you've brung this up b/c i'm putting my vietnam MP/PBEM scenario together and was thinking if i could put in land mines...

btw, what's "ATR"?