Epsilon - Friend or Foe
- Thread starter dutchfire
- Start date
Yeah, we can't hurt them now anyway, so stay nice as long as possible, until we're ready (together with Aloha and Piffle) to destroy them totally. With the lead they've got already, all we can do is try to destroy them together.
I suggest we make a non-aggresion deal with them for the moment though. Try to get as much out of them as possible.
I suggest we make a non-aggresion deal with them for the moment though. Try to get as much out of them as possible.
The message I sent Epsilon:
And they've now responded:
Their offer sounds reasonable, but we'd have to lower the science rate to do it so I'm not sure if it's worth it.
If we are going to take it, could someone calculate which deal is best for us taking into account the extra commerce we'll get by acquiring currency earlier?
Spoiler :
And they've now responded:
Seems like they are running a tech broker agency.General_W said:Dear Theoden & All Innovators,
Thank you for your warm letter it was very well received by The Leader, may he live forever. He has pledged his word to peace with your people.
Now to the matter of trading knowledge! We must confess, our dear Leader is a bit reluctant to let go of Currency so soon but in the interest of building a strong relationship, we have devised a couple scenarios that we hope you will find acceptable.
Currency Trade A)
We send you currency right away on our next turn. You only pay 70% of the beaker cost in gold!
Currency = 400= 280
Innovia price. payable in 14gpt for 20 turns.
Currency Trade B)
We send you currency half-way though your payment program. You only pay 60% of the beaker cost in gold!
Currency = 400
We hope one of those is acceptable if not, wed be happy to hear your counter proposal.
Also if we could interest you in some of our other technologies The Leader is prepared to make you a very special offer on Monotheism(100
Any or all of this interest you?
Sadly, Im at -8 gmt, so it may be hard for us to catch up over IM you can get all my different address from my CivFantatics profile. Maybe well get lucky!
In the meantime, PM works well for me also.
Looking forward to hearing back from you and arranging some mutually profitable deals!
Foreign Minister General_W
Servant of The Leader
Epsilon Team!
Their offer sounds reasonable, but we'd have to lower the science rate to do it so I'm not sure if it's worth it.
If we are going to take it, could someone calculate which deal is best for us taking into account the extra commerce we'll get by acquiring currency earlier?
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
Those are good prices but we simply can not do it. If we buy technology from them we will never catch up. The only way to close the gap is to trade with the other teams.
I agree, paying cash for techs is not a good idea, especially GPT terms.
Perhaps we could work something out with the other teams, Aloha and Piffle and perhaps even Loco.
280 bucks/4=70 gold, still a lot.
Certainly counting the library bonus and the discount because they know it, that makes about 30% too I guess.
280 bucks/4=70 gold, still a lot.
Certainly counting the library bonus and the discount because they know it, that makes about 30% too I guess.
Chat with General W (Epsilon):
In short, I've managed to get a very good offer of buying currency that I think we should accept:
We pay 40% of the price (160g) over 5 turns (we can afford that right?)
We won't trade it to any third part within 40 turns
I know the money will help Epsilon a bit but this offer is just too good...
Spoiler :
In short, I've managed to get a very good offer of buying currency that I think we should accept:
We pay 40% of the price (160g) over 5 turns (we can afford that right?)
We won't trade it to any third part within 40 turns
I know the money will help Epsilon a bit but this offer is just too good...
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
I have not had time to read the chat yet, but not only do I not want to buy technology from Epsilon, the fact that we cant trade it to other teams for more techs significantly reduces its value.
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
Ok, so now I've looked over the chat. Kudos to Theo, your really made for diplomacy, but I still oppose buying techs.
My thinking is that we can do the research ourselves then trade with some other team and we've just doubled our effort, so a 50% discount might just compensates for the fact that we can't trade. But Currency is already 6% cheaper just because Epsilon already has it. So buying it at 40% amounts to about a 4% discount according to me.
Concider also that most of our beakers are produced in Wheelville which gets +25% from the Library, the Monastary boosts beakers in Ploughland by 10% and our scientists also give us beakers. Our gold gets no bonuses though so it seems to me that gold is more valuable than beakers right now.
I'd tell them that Innovians don't have to pay for it.
My thinking is that we can do the research ourselves then trade with some other team and we've just doubled our effort, so a 50% discount might just compensates for the fact that we can't trade. But Currency is already 6% cheaper just because Epsilon already has it. So buying it at 40% amounts to about a 4% discount according to me.
Concider also that most of our beakers are produced in Wheelville which gets +25% from the Library, the Monastary boosts beakers in Ploughland by 10% and our scientists also give us beakers. Our gold gets no bonuses though so it seems to me that gold is more valuable than beakers right now.
I'd tell them that Innovians don't have to pay for it.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
I also don't like it. And 40 turns is a ridiculously long time, I would not go any longer than 20 (and even that's pushing it). Personally I'm not keen at all on funding the tech leader's research, it's the last thing a sensible strategist does. Also, consider that if they're willing to trade with us, then they'll be willing to trade with someone else. If they arrange a simultaneous trade-out of a tech to other parties, then they make a bundle at everyone else's expense.
Finally, there's the fact that they are misleading by way of beaker costs. Almost every tech is NOT worth the amount of beakers it says, for the reason of multipliers. For each prerequisite (arrow leading to it) that you have satisfied, an additional 20% bonus to tech rate is applied to the tech you are researching. So for instance, in the case of Currency, as it has one prerequisite it does NOT take 400 beakers of research to complete; it takes 334 beakers. Techs with even more prerequisites are worth even less; for instance, Writing (with the prerequisites of Priesthood, Animal Husbandry, and Pottery all completed) will only require 62.5% of the beakers to research as it states as its 'cost'.
I'm certain that Epsilon are aware of this, and are trying to bank in on other teams' possible lack of knowledge of it. Either way, I vote absolutely for one thing: we do not trade with Epsilon while they hold the tech lead, and especially not in gold-for-tech deals.
EDIT: Good point about the additional multiplier for them already having it, 1889... I'd forgotten about that as well. Realistically, Currency will take us about 300 beakers to research ourselves, maybe less. Epsilon's deals are nowhere near as sweet as they are sugar-coating them to sound like.
Finally, there's the fact that they are misleading by way of beaker costs. Almost every tech is NOT worth the amount of beakers it says, for the reason of multipliers. For each prerequisite (arrow leading to it) that you have satisfied, an additional 20% bonus to tech rate is applied to the tech you are researching. So for instance, in the case of Currency, as it has one prerequisite it does NOT take 400 beakers of research to complete; it takes 334 beakers. Techs with even more prerequisites are worth even less; for instance, Writing (with the prerequisites of Priesthood, Animal Husbandry, and Pottery all completed) will only require 62.5% of the beakers to research as it states as its 'cost'.
I'm certain that Epsilon are aware of this, and are trying to bank in on other teams' possible lack of knowledge of it. Either way, I vote absolutely for one thing: we do not trade with Epsilon while they hold the tech lead, and especially not in gold-for-tech deals.
EDIT: Good point about the additional multiplier for them already having it, 1889... I'd forgotten about that as well. Realistically, Currency will take us about 300 beakers to research ourselves, maybe less. Epsilon's deals are nowhere near as sweet as they are sugar-coating them to sound like.
Good reasoning there. I was aware of the research bonuses but I didn't know they were that high.
I don't think General_W knew it either though, so telling him might convince him of an even lower price. Theoretically what would we settle for? Something like paying 20% of the 'cost' and not being able to trade it for the next 10 turns? Or perhaps even lower; I'd just like to make a counteroffer to keep relations open so we're able to get information from them.
I don't think General_W knew it either though, so telling him might convince him of an even lower price. Theoretically what would we settle for? Something like paying 20% of the 'cost' and not being able to trade it for the next 10 turns? Or perhaps even lower; I'd just like to make a counteroffer to keep relations open so we're able to get information from them.
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
They may be offended if our conter-offer is too good, but if we make a reasonable counter-offer that they accept then it would be hard for us to turn it down. How about you just tell them that your sorry but your team mates were too thick and refused to listen to reason. Its like good cop bad cop and I think it will come in very handy.
I'll try that, playing the good foreign minister who is constantly overruled by his teammates.
I think it'll work since I already presented myself to him as not having the power to do trades without the peoples consent.
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
This was in our box when I went to get the save. Still considering what to do with Feudalism, but probably not this.
Greetings to our friends at Innovia!
Congratulations on your recent discovery of Feudalism. Truly, the
peasants must be kept in line, and you are setting a most excellent
example for the entire world!
Would you be interested in trading your knowledge for some of our research?
Option #1) You give Feudalism (700
(300
Option #2) You give Feudalism (700
Philosophy (800
What do you say?
We eagerly await your reply.
Foreign Minister General W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!
Option #1 sucks, Theology and Drama are both dead end techs.
Option #2, Do we really need Philosophy? Pacifism isn't great, we don't have the production to get Angkor Wat and Taoism has been founded. All it does is lead to Nationalism, a very expensive tech that we won't be getting anyway.
Option #2, Do we really need Philosophy? Pacifism isn't great, we don't have the production to get Angkor Wat and Taoism has been founded. All it does is lead to Nationalism, a very expensive tech that we won't be getting anyway.
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
We can get those techs from Piffle also.
Monotheism (171) and Feudalism (1001) for Philosophy (1144)
Maybe Music (858) for Paper (858)
Then maybe Philosophy to Aloha for Drama and Theology as you say.
(This post is repeated in the Piffle thread)
Monotheism (171) and Feudalism (1001) for Philosophy (1144)
Maybe Music (858) for Paper (858)
Then maybe Philosophy to Aloha for Drama and Theology as you say.
(This post is repeated in the Piffle thread)
Nomad Bryce
Innovian UU Cannon Turtle
Wow, this stuff is intense If my say counts for anything, I vote no to epsilon! In real life I am taking a very enlightening economics course and when it come to progress and benefit, trading with epsilon is a great idea. But since this is not about progress and is instead about relative competition, this trade is worse for us than we gain (I think, I have no numbers ) Maybe we should invest more in our long term economy with some fresh cottages!
If my say counts for anything, I vote no to epsilon! In real life I am taking a very enlightening economics course and when it come to progress and benefit, trading with epsilon is a great idea. But since this is not about progress and is instead about relative competition, this trade is worse for us than we gain (I think, I have no numbers ) Maybe we should invest more in our long term economy with some fresh cottages!
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
Sorry I didn't see your post earlier Dutch. Those are good points but I do want Theology when we build units for the war.
