Espionage

[Jack the Ripper]

Should espionage really cost thousands of gold? A single espionage mission seems to cost as much to preform as wonders cost to build. I dont think James Bond ever needed the funding of magellans voyage to steal a russian decryptor. All he needed was a $50 gun, a car and a gadget or two. I think that the cars and gadgets can be funded by a matinence fee in the city that holds the intelligence agency (2 gold per turn at most).

This is how it should be (listed from least to most expensive):

Expose ememy spy (max cost 2)
Steal World Map (max cost-5)
Steal Tec (max cost 8)
Steal Plans (max cost 15)
Sabatoge (max cost 25)
Propoganda (max cost 50)

Why not add:
Raid Treasury?
Bio Warfare (involving units and cities)?
Unit Takeover (workers/settlers/naval/air units only)?
Assassinations?

Ideas/suggestions welcome.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I agree espionage missions cost way to much... but that can also be edited in the biq file.

The Civ2 spy had both the "Plant Nuclear Device" and the "Bribe Unit" feature, which I miss... I think for the most part, there would have to be a physical Spy unit again for the bribery feature to be effective.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I remember that 'Birth of the Federation' had a fantastic espionage/intelligence system. In it, you built and manned 'intelligence' improvements, which gave you 'intelligence points' you could then go to your 'Intelligence' screen, and determine what % of these points went into which missions. This, in turn, would determine the relative 'frequency' of the mission types. You had the broad categories of 'Espionage', 'Sabotage' and 'Counterintelligence'. Within the first two categories, you could choose industrial, commercial, scientific and military. Lastly, you could also choose which empire you focused your attentions on. So, for instance, if you allocated 10% of your IP's into military sabotage, then there was a 1 in 10 chance that your agents would try and sabotage a unit or military improvement of your chosen enemy. The actual chance of success would depend on the TOTAL number of points you have for that mission type and your enemies 'counterintelligence' allocation.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Hmm, I guess I would prefer that espionage in Civ be largely a function of intelligence gathering. To that end, I would prefer to see actual spy units that can move about in enemy territory, and perform missions for a reasonable amount of gold. Similarly, I would like the ability to see what tech a civ is researching, how many turns it will be before they get there, a precise breakdown of attitudes towards other civs, and so on. I would like to see maybe some secret military/trade pacts in the game, as well, and the ability to ferret these out through spy missions. I would ditch the useless stuff like Expose Enemy Spy, Initiate Propaganda, Sabotage Production, etc. from the spy screen. Sabotage and Overthrow Enemy City would be better done by a new unit/game function, Guerilla Warfare. You would be able to build a small number of HN Guerillas to harass enemy civs with, These guys could attack really weak units, and destroy improvements or shields in the box if they can get close enough to attack an enemy city. IF the city contains some of YOUR citizens (i.e., it was lost by you) OR it is a city the current civ conquered from another nation, there is a chance that partisan activity will overthrow the city government and it will become Barbarian.

 

[Roso]

I agree to most of previous ideas (I was lazy enough to read the others) and it was very interesting idea for Barbarian cities. One more thing which I think could be a good idea is to see animie troops longer in Steal Plans misions.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Personally, I think reintroducing a spy 'unit' would be a HUGE step backwards for civ, not to mention adding yet more MM headaches for players. I say keep espionage abstract, but introduce a better system for determining what missions are performed and how successful they might be. My vote is for a variant of the 'Birth of the Federation' model I mentioned above !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[douche_bag]

I like the idea ,maybe they could give an option of editing it in the editor.I don't like the unit takeover though.They had bribing in civ 2 and it didnt work.

 

[Roso]

Haven't you sometimes wished you could make non-agresion pact? Sometimes I wish I could make an ultimatum (I hope this is the word I ment) - For example "Make pease with someone or prepare for War!".

 

[Spatula]

Yeah...but this is the wrong thread for that....

 

[sealman]

Haven't you sometimes wished you could make non-agresion pact? Sometimes I wish I could make an ultimatum (I hope this is the word I ment) - For example "Make pease with someone or prepare for War!".

That is more diplomacy than espionage. But still it is a good idea.

back on topic:
I agree that the espiange missions are slightly expensive but using that James Bond analogy, think of all the money that went into the R&D of his gagets. And, while I am not that big of a 007 fan, I don't think he ever used the same gaget twice.

 

[searcheagle]

Hmm, I guess I would prefer that espionage in Civ be largely a function of intelligence gathering. To that end, I would prefer to see actual spy units that can move about in enemy territory, and perform missions for a reasonable amount of gold. Similarly, I would like the ability to see what tech a civ is researching, how many turns it will be before they get there, a precise breakdown of attitudes towards other civs, and so on. I would like to see maybe some secret military/trade pacts in the game, as well, and the ability to ferret these out through spy missions. I would ditch the useless stuff like Expose Enemy Spy, Initiate Propaganda, Sabotage Production, etc. from the spy screen. Sabotage and Overthrow Enemy City would be better done by a new unit/game function, Guerilla Warfare. You would be able to build a small number of HN Guerillas to harass enemy civs with, These guys could attack really weak units, and destroy improvements or shields in the box if they can get close enough to attack an enemy city. IF the city contains some of YOUR citizens (i.e., it was lost by you) OR it is a city the current civ conquered from another nation, there is a chance that partisan activity will overthrow the city government and it will become Barbarian.

Some have objected to the use of spy unit. However I think there is a compromise that can be drawn. If you want to use spies to sabtage or bribe units without the use of spies, where's how it could be done:

1. right click on the icon you want to bribe/sabtage
2. in the options on the bar, there would a little different set up:
a) civopedia for the units
b)contact civ who owns the civs in the stack
c)list of units in stack
3. click on the unit you want and it would say give you the ability to bribe/sabtage unit.

There you've got that ability and no spies. I think this ability would have to be limited somehow, but thats the idea.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Please don't revert to the CivII diplomat/spy units!

Prices are too high ATM, and there's not really a jolly lot of use to it, that I'll agree. But espionage shouldn't be a major part of the game.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Real spying was very very very much unlike James Bond. That's why he's a movie star.

Real espionage takes time, patience, and yes, money. Bribery is one of the greatest tools in the spy arsenal, which revolves completely around how much cash you have.

 

[Spatula]

And, while I am not that big of a 007 fan, I don't think he ever used the same gaget twice.

I think he usually knacked it, especially if it was a car, boat, or mini-plane.

 

[searcheagle]

Espionage is one of the funnest parts of the game. To remove it would be unthinkable.

FYI: Last Conformest: Espionage does not equal spies. Espionage is "Espionage is the practice of obtaining secrets (spying) from rivals or enemies for military, political, or economic advantage. It is usually thought of as part of an organized (ie, governmental or corporate) effort. A spy is an agent employed to obtain such secrets. The definition has been restricted to a state spying on potential or actual enemies, primarily for military purposes, but this has been extended to spying involving corporations, known specifically as Industrial espionage. Many nations routinely spy on their enemies, and allies, although they generally deny this. Black's Law Dictionary (1990) defines espionage as: "...gathering, transmitting, or losing...[information related to the national defense]."

http://www.free-definition.com/Espionage.html

However, in the game, this is does not require a spy unit. In my idea, you simply right clicked on the unit to perform the action.

 

[sir_schwick]

Instead of units I will suggest programs. It is like the BotF model, but not.

Part of your funding each turn goes towards 'Intelligence Programs'. The sophistication and effectiveness of these programs increases with technology. Also, cultural spread would be a big part of this as well.

There would be various areas you could devote penetration to and fund. There would be a city level for domestic/economic matters and a nation-sate level for military/trade matters. You decide which programs get 'growth funding'. All existing programs need 'maintenance funding' based on penetration. As you gain more penetration points, you gain more options and greater success with those options. Some of the options will cost some or a signifcant amount of the built up points(back-lash). Espionage would now be something that would be built up over time.

Spoiler EXAMPLE ONE :

You run into your first foreign city, Ur. You start a Domestic infiltration of Ur. For the first five turns you can increase the infiltration by 3 ept(espionage points a turn). After that you now have to spend 1 ept to maintain the infiltration. Also you have accumulated 15 ep. This means as long as you are not at war with Babylon you can see Ur's city screen. Eventually you gain more money and the program grows to over 150 ep. Now you have a couple options. One is 'Assassinate Governor'. Of course with only 150 ep it will not be successful alot. At 250 ep it is more likely to be successul, although it will cost 40-50 ep to do. The effect of the assasination could be increased corruption and unhappiness for the turn.

Spoiler EXAMPLE TWO :

You have invested for a long time into Babylonian Trade infiltration. With the technology Scientific Method you can now try the option of 'Ruining Industry X'. Basically it paints one of the Babylonian industries as unsafe for one to several turns, hurting their economy. Similarily you could do, 'Increase Value of Foreign Goods', hurting domestic producers in a trade war.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

This is VERY similar to what I suggested above (my own variant of the BotF model !) In mine, though, the success chance, frequency and sophistication of intelligence operations was related to tech level, funding AND # of 'intelligence improvements', specialists and Wonders-all of which contributed to your 'Intelligence Point' pool (though I concur with you, S_S, on the possible role of culture flow as well). You then determined what PERCENTAGE of your IP's you want to devote to different types of intelligence activities.

(a) First up, you decide what % of your IP's you devote to Espionage (spying), Sabotage and Counterintelligence (defence against foreign intelligence missions).

(b) You then FURTHER decide what % of the points from (a) you wish to devote to each nation you are in contact with.

(c) Lastly, you can then further split your IP's up, on a % basis, into domestic/civil; Military; Scientific; Industrial or Commercial. If you don't allocate any points at this level, then the computer will simply attempt each mission type on an equal basis.

As an example, lets say that you are currently generating 600 Intelligence points every turn. You decide to allocate 40% (240 points) into Espionage, 20% (or 120 points) into Sabotage and 40% (or 240 points) into Counterintelligence.

You are currently in contact with 4 civilization-the Romans, the Babylonians, the English and the Egyptians. You are currently already at war with Babylon, so do not decide to devote too many resources to them-allocating just 10% of your IP resources to this nation (24 points, 12 points and 24 points respectively). You are allied to England, and so only devote 10% of your resources to them too. Egypt you are not too sure about, so you decide to devote around 30% of your resources to (72, 36 and 72 points). Rome, though, you are DEEPLY suspicious of (having only just come out of a war with them). So you devote 50% of your total resources on intelligence operations on them (120, 60 and 120 points respectively). This essentially means that your intelligence missions will be most succesful (and most frequent) against Rome, though this might change if they have allocated significantly more IP's into counterintelligence!

Lastly, you could divide your IP's up even further. So, for instance, if you wanted to really learn about, and HURT, Romes economy, then you might devote 60% of these IP's into Economic-which amounts to 50 points and 22 points devoted to Economic espionage and Sabotage respectively! This would give you information on what kind, and how much, of certain resources Rome possesses, what kind of economic improvements/wonders they have and who they are trading with-and for what. It would also give you a chance of damaging, destroying said improvements, cutting them off from their resources and causing some form of disruption to their trade routes!!

Information on successful (or very unsuccessful) Intelligence Operations would be given in your 'pre-turn' summary list-under the 'Intelligence' heading!
Aside from this, if you have an opportunity to comit an especially vile attack (such as terrorism, assassination or the like) or plant evidence implicating another nation (via your counterintelligence) then this will appear in a pop-up as a yes/no option. All other missions, however, will be performed automatically. For example, lets say that you learn of a Roman 'Economic Great Leader', whom they are using to boost the wealth of their cities. At the start of your turn, a pop-up featuring your 'spy-chief' comes up, saying you have an opportunity to assassinate this leader, and if you want to do it (with a standard warning about your reputation !) If you click 'Yes', then a further message might come up asking if you wish to try and implicate another nation in the assassination attempt, with each button relating to a VIABLE nation. You decide to cause trouble, and Click on Babylon. Thus, if you were successful, Rome's Counterintelligence would detect evidence implicating a Babylonian spy in the murder of their Chief Economist-which might lead to WAR !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Strato]

I really like Aussie Lurker's model. The one draw back I can see though is that it could (or would) need a lot of management. It might be made easier if the computer could handle the levels of various things, but then, when you consider the intelligence of the governer in Civ 3, and the advisors in Civ 2, then it might cause a whole lot more heart break.

Working on Aussie_Lurker's idea: How about gathering intelligence points, much like you gather trade, and then use it as a means to reduce the overall cost of performing an espionage mission. At the same instance, you might need a certain amount of intelligence points to actually carry out a mission (eg: 50 to investigate a city, 35,000 to plant a nuke). Meanwhile, some of this would still cost gold to perform, however if you have a lot of Intelligence points, then the cost would be somewhat reduced (so, investigating a city with 100 would normally cost 5 IP and 50 gold, but then if you have 1000 IP, then investigating would only cost 5IP and 5 gold) or something along those lines.

That way the micro management is gone.

Thus, if you were successful, Rome's Counterintelligence would detect evidence implicating a Babylonian spy in the murder of their Chief Economist-which might lead to WAR

"Real life" events like that sound really good! It'd certainly give some variation in the way wars are started.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Espionage is one of the funnest parts of the game.

Well, that's a matter of personal opinion. I don't agree.

FYI: Last Conformest: Espionage does not equal spies.

[snip]

Did I say it did (outside of CivI/CivII)? It's entirely possible not to think that and still think that the focus of the game should remain on grand military, economic and political strategy, not espionage.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Strato, I'm glad you liked my idea, but I must disagree with you on the issue regarding the degree of player management required.
As it currently stands in civ3, every time you want to perform an act of espionage/sabotage, you have to go into the appropriate screen, select the appropriate mission, then pay your money. My system is a lot more 'set and forget' than that.
Ultimately, the only decisions a player needs to make in this system are:

1) How many 'Intelligence Based' improvements does he wish to build (which will, like all improvements, cost money to maintain)

2) How much of the money he accumulates does he wish to 'invest' in Intelligence (Not unlike investment in luxuries and science in civ2 and civ3)

3) Who does he wish to direct his intelligence efforts at, and what types of intelligence does he wish to specialise in.

4) Every once in a while-mostly when you become VERY good at intelligence operations-you will be given the opportunity to sign off on such things as assassinations, planting of nuclear/biological weapons, implicating others in your dirty deeds, and feeding false intelligence to known foreign spies !

Everything else is performed by the computer, with regular progress reports on your intelligence activities appearing in a summary of the previous turns events. Any new intelligence points you generate will be AUTOMATICALLY allocated according to the percentages you have already set: so, for instance, if you have just built 4 new 'listening posts', to give you an additional 50 IP's, and you have already set your allocations to 40/20/40, as in the above example, then 20 points will go into espionage, 10 into sabotage, and another 20 into counterintelligence.
The only other thing you, the player, needs to do is occasionally move your percentage allocations around, depending on which 'enemy' is 'flavour of the month' ! Trust me, guys, I have seen this system in BotF, and it works VERY VERY WELL!!!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.