[NFP] Ethiopia Update Discussion Thread

[SammyKhalifa]

I certainly minded those as well, but that's a pretty disingenuous comparison, isn't it? Red Death is a separate scenario entirely, compared to Secret Societies being something that can be toggled for 'normal' games. That's like wondering why people would be fine with a mythological scenario but not a made-up Civ like Atlanteans or Native America -- the reality is that people don't usually take scenarios that seriously, particularly ones that are openly designed to cash in on relevant gaming trends like Battle Royale modes. Many people probably don't even touch scenarios at all. Something that's present in the 'main game' is much more likely to be interacted with, and therefore it will probably be held to a higher standard -- in the same way that I have higher expectations for the cook than the janitor from the same restaurant when it comes to their abilities to prepare food. And sure, you can toggle this content off, but (a) you can also toggle DLC civs off by just disabling their DLC (hi Australia), and (b) I'm still forced to pay for it if it comes with Civs I actually want.

More practically, even if I did complain about Zombies/Aliens, it'd just get shut down immediately for exactly the same reason: "it's just a scenario, lighten up!" (that or "it's free, stop being entitled!"). Between that and the "you let it happen once, so all further instances of it MUST be acceptable" in your post, how is anyone supposed to actually win? This feels like a pretty classic "you haven't played it enough to hold an opinion"/"if you've played it that much it must have been good" paradox where it's not possible for a work to actually be criticized because you lose no matter which approach you take.

That said, if I had to choose, I'd still say that I find aliens more realistic than vampires. I'd prefer "neither", but I'd expect aliens to be much more capable of using futuristic technology or mysterious biology to operate in secret compared to the dudes who live in ornate castles and terrorize small villages at night. Honestly, even zombies are probably less showy... although they also seem less motivated.

my issue with the vampires is they don't strike the same tone as the others (which are also fantastical).

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I certainly minded those as well, but that's a pretty disingenuous comparison, isn't it? Red Death is a separate scenario entirely, compared to Secret Societies being something that can be toggled for 'normal' games. That's like wondering why people would be fine with a mythological scenario but not a made-up Civ like Atlanteans or Native America -- the reality is that people don't usually take scenarios that seriously, particularly ones that are openly designed to cash in on relevant gaming trends like Battle Royale modes. Many people probably don't even touch scenarios at all. Something that's present in the 'main game' is much more likely to be interacted with, and therefore it will probably be held to a higher standard -- in the same way that I have higher expectations for the cook than the janitor from the same restaurant when it comes to their abilities to prepare food.

More practically, even if I did complain about Zombies/Aliens, it'd just get shut down immediately for exactly the same reason: "it's just a scenario, lighten up!" (that or "it's free, stop being entitled!"). Between that and the "you let it happen once, so all further instances of it MUST be acceptable" in your post, how is anyone supposed to actually win? This feels like a pretty classic "you haven't played it enough to hold an opinion"/"if you've played it that much it must have been good" paradox where it's not possible for a work to actually be criticized because you lose no matter which approach you take.

That said, if I had to choose, I'd still say that I find aliens more realistic than vampires. I'd prefer "neither", but I'd expect aliens to be much more capable of using futuristic technology or mysterious biology to operate in secret compared to the dudes who live in ornate castles and terrorize small villages at night. Honestly, even zombies are probably less showy... although they also seem less motivated.

I would like to point out that vampirism is actually kind of historical. There are instances here and there of people who were obsessed with human blood as a superstitious source of magic and/or youthfulness, like Elizabeth Bathory. And of all the fantasy races, vampires have actually managed to develop into a modern cult which actually does consume human blood, something which can't be said of Tolkein's elves or Lucas's Jedi.

So as far as I can tell just the mere idea of a blood-sucking unit (which is pretty much the only fantastical thing about the vampire unit itself) is fine. In all other respects it's just a dashing swordsman that just happens to not be killable. I don't think the vampire unit by itself strays that much into fantasy territory, at least no more than religious units that can call down lightning; it's pretty down to earth and doesn't have any overtly magical abilities like flying or form changing.

Even the concept of a vampire castle isn't too weird, since people with blood fetishes tended to be of the landed aristocracy. The bats and the teleporting...yeah that's probably where things get a little fantastical.

I certainly don't understand why a very soft implementation of vampires is "too much" but the Voidsingers aren't even on people's radar as being fantastical. They literally drive people mad with the power of the Old Ones. Their obelisks are haunted with incomprehensible terror. That's nothing compared to a little blood-sucking.

 

[GenyaArikado]

my issue with the vampires is they don't strike the same tone as the others (which are also fantastical).

you did see the green fire, black glowing obelisk right?

 

[Kwami]

I would like to point out that vampirism is actually kind of historical. There are instances here and there of people who were obsessed with human blood as a superstitious source of magic and/or youthfulness, like Elizabeth Bathory. And of all the fantasy races, vampires have actually managed to develop into a modern cult which actually does consume human blood, something which can't be said of Tolkein's elves or Lucas's Jedi.

Well, sure, real-world Jedi and Elves don't consume human blood. But Jedi is a registered religion in some countries and there are plenty of folks who study Elvish as a real language. So, eh...

While actual vampires might be fantastical (the immortality, the burning in sunlight, the garlic), there were actual "vampires" and vampire hunters in Europe back in the day. So, it's at least as historical as the Cthulu cult. Sorry, Old Ones.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The secret societies' greatest value is probably role playing. Everybody has heard of the Illuminati and Knights Templar. Old hat. You know what sounds cool? A Scottish Death Cult. Or an organization of merchants fixing commodities markets originating in ancient Phoenicia. Or a band of mad scientists doing unethical experiments deep in the Andes. Or Viking Vampires from Norway.

 

[GenyaArikado]

you could rp the templars and illuminati as hermetics and minervans too

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Well, sure, real-world Jedi and Elves don't consume human blood. But Jedi is a registered religion in some countries and there are plenty of folks who study Elvish as a real language.

Part of me actually wouldn't mind if Civ included emergent religions and cultures, as silly as that would be. The only real differences between Jediism, Scientology, Mormonism, and Christianity are the number of generations each has survived for people to forget about and mythologize their origins.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Or Viking Vampires from Norway.

Pretty sure there are Nordic metal bands with this exact aesthetic

 

[Hogimus]

Or Viking Vampires from Norway.

Annnnnnnd, this is now what I'm going to do on my first Secret Societies run.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

my issue with the vampires is they don't strike the same tone as the others (which are also fantastical).

I'm kind of glad we didn't get a Cthulhu unit spawning after a successful Dark Summoning city project. That would be a little too over the top for me. Now I'm sure someone is going to mod that in now that I mention it.

Even the concept of a vampire castle isn't too weird, since people with blood fetishes tended to be of the landed aristocracy. The bats and the teleporting...yeah that's probably where things get a little fantastical.

Yes, they are basically Romanian noblemen who just happened to sign a blood pact and follow into battle whoever recruits them. Nothing ahistorical about that. The name Gothic castle would have been nicer and sounded less vampirish.

I kind of wanted Vlad Tepes in Civ anyway.

 

[bite]

The more I think of the announcement, the more I want to get into the weeds as to what all of Ethiopia's bonuses will be

 

[bbbt]

I'm kind of glad we didn't get a Cthulhu unit spawning after a successful Dark Summoning city project. That would be a little too over the top for me. Now I'm sure someone is going to mod that in now that I mention it.

I think there's only one Cthulhu and when it rises/awakens it will bring apocalyptic madness to the earth.

So now I totally want Secret Societies to each have their own win conditions you can do/try and stop.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

The best Civ for Vampires is Hungary.

1. Elisabeth Batory - famous from blood baths

2. Transilvania is a Hungarian historical province. Part of modern-day Romania. Two from Civ 6 Hungarian city list are located there: Kolozsvár and Temesvár. Building Vampire Castle in one of those should be an achievement.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'm kind of glad we didn't get a Cthulhu unit spawning after a successful Dark Summoning city project. That would be a little too over the top for me. Now I'm sure someone is going to mod that in now that I mention it.

Would be especially easy to mod if we get Kaijus in another DLC pack.

Yes, they are basically Romanian noblemen who just happened to sign a blood pact and follow into battle whoever recruits them. Nothing ahistorical about that. The name Gothic castle would have been nicer and sounded less vampirish.

I kind of wanted Vlad Tepes in Civ anyway.

I didn't want Vlad. Romania was never unified under him and in fact had a pretty poor history of unification and independence. I'm sorry, but it would be a slap in the face to the Bulgars and the Rus' to prioritize Romania.

And frankly this vampire unit is far more fun than any real Romanian design we would have had, which would have had precisely no vampiric flavor other than Vlad looking creepy af.

 

[Karmah]

I'm excited because they are new mechanics that sound pretty fun. As someone stated very well in this ever-growing thread (sorry for not quoting dear sir), Vampires are just a tad too much and could very well have been replaced with some assassins that would fit each ability (stealthy, increasing power., fast travel.). Now let's see if the sandbox AI will be able to deal with those new mechanics.

 

[Bitterman]

I hope Ethiopia does something more than buying things with faith. I've already done that plenty with lots of different civs.

Would like something more unique to be honest.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I hope Ethiopia does something more than buying things with faith. I've already done that plenty with lots of different civs.

Would like something more unique to be honest.

I'm predicting it will have maluses like Mali/Maori/Maya that force it to lean into a religious victory.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And frankly this vampire unit is far more fun than any real Romanian design we would have had, which would have had precisely no vampiric flavor other than Vlad looking creepy af.

I can probably agree with this statement. I'll take what I can get.

 

[Kwami]

I'm predicting it will have maluses like Mali/Maori/Maya that force it to lean into a religious victory.

Well, the video suggested that the faith would be used toward a culture victory.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I hope Ethiopia does something more than buying things with faith. I've already done that plenty with lots of different civs.

Would like something more unique to be honest.

I have a feeling that Ethiopea will be bit like Arabic- instead of extra science when you spread your religion you get extra culture and/or tourism